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Author Topic: If I Were the Devil  (Read 1158 times)

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Offline VaporWareTopic starter

If I Were the Devil
« on: April 12, 2016, 08:22:09 AM »
With apologies to Paul Harvey.

If I were the Devil...if I were the Prince of Lies, I'd want to tell the greatest lie ever told, maybe the greatest that could ever /be/ told, that would turn all joy and beauty to misery and filth.

If I were the Devil the first thing I'd do, from the very beginning, is convince everyone that my word was God's.

The first lesson I'd teach them would be to be ashamed of the image in which they were made. I'd teach them to revile their bodies by reviling their soul, while convincing them that the highest and only good in the world was obedience to God who, of course, I would teach them how to worship.

Once I had them hooked, I would teach them how to kill. Those, like Cain, who showed some stomach for blood, I would send out into the world to teach others how to live and die by stone and blade. They would beat my word into one another, certain that they were saving each other from the vileness I had given them, in 'my' name.

Humans are clever little bastards though. You have to keep your lies ahead of them, or they soon suss out the truth. So when they started writing things down, I'd have to keep on top of the situation. Keep the scariest stories about God and I dancing at the forefront of their thoughts, with just enough of the carrot to keep them coming back to me for hope. Get them written into and over the laws they tried to make for themselves.

Sometimes they're too clever for their own good though, and that'd work out fine for me. Books, you see, let you put a lot of ideas in one place, all under a nice, convenient label. So I'd pick the best of them, the most beautiful renditions of my terrible tales, wrap them up together and make sure that /my/ book was /the/ Book right out the starting gate. Get it out ahead of the rush and make sure it stayed the biggest idea in the marketplace of thought for as long as possible. The best part about books though? People can look at a book and not see the author. I wouldn't have to keep up the charade myself anymore, once I was written down all nice. I could tell people to listen to that, that everything they needed to know was told by the book and that they didn't really need to worry about praying to me or anybody else anymore, so long as they followed the rules.

It'd all be right there in the book, of course. And they'd teach it to their children, from the very first lesson on down, until they hardly even needed to read the book for themselves anymore. Oh, they'd squabble and bicker and wage war over the particulars, but none of it was ever meant to be as true as it was pretty and painful, so that'd suit me fine. I wouldn't need them to do anything in particular for me, after all, except keep being scared of themselves and each other.

Some folks might start to figure it out, of course. Eventually. No good lie goes on forever without getting caught now and then.

That's what the swords are for.

If I were the Devil, that's all I'd really have to do. Then I could just sit back and let you all keep right on doing what you're doing.

Offline Far eyes

Re: If I Were the Devil
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2016, 09:21:34 AM »
Thats an interesting peace and i do appropriate it for what it is, and the direction you Take (I really wish i could remember the name of the book, even if i did read it in Hungarian but there is a book that starts with a similar premise)

If we look at it as just in the christian religion its has a few oddities just in the person of the devil him self who is is most commonly* seen as a fallen or rebellious angels. Now first problem is that makes him lesser then god, so he is not an opposite. Modern views think of angels as the dudes with wings and the equipment of a ken doll but if you look at old descriptions you actually come up with a lot of really funky shit.**
*Though sometimes he is described to be some other entity
** I can not find the page, i use to have it bookmarked because of an RP game i was in i will tray and find it because it is really interesting.

The depiction of the devil with the goat bits and the horns and all that is actually something that as far as i know is mostly affiliated with Christianities love of kidnapping other religions. It is as far as i know mostly based on some Greek depictions of Satyr, Pan getting some bad rap. They keep putting the guy down just because he liked to drink a bit and sleep around and play his pipes...  and have them played *Wink*

The Bible and religious writings are also a bit confused about
Azazel - is the name used before the fall, his problem was he bonked some females (apparently he had functional bits and is presumably heterosexual apparently) and taught men about magic and weapons. Apparently before this nobody know about weapons, stunning. God salved the problem by drowning everybody except bob the builder and his magic ship, except the dinosaurs because i dont know they were not good Christians.
Lucifer - being roman "Light-bringer" sometimes he is also called this before the fall..   so now there are two of them?
The dragon - also appears but its kind of sketchy who that actually is suppose to be
Beel-Zebub - Just because we needed another one and hey "Lord of fly's" sounds like a good end level boss.

Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: If I Were the Devil
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2016, 09:54:40 AM »
If I were the devil, all I would do is sit back and let people act on their own, and place all the blame upon me to justify their actions, as I sit back and enjoy the show.

Offline VaporWareTopic starter

Re: If I Were the Devil
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2016, 09:56:37 AM »
Thats an interesting peace and i do appropriate it for what it is, and the direction you Take (I really wish i could remember the name of the book, even if i did read it in Hungarian but there is a book that starts with a similar premise)

Will have to look into that at some point. *smile* This was honestly just a thought that's been bouncing around in my head for a long time now, on the subject of religion in general and the Abrahamics in particular, that I finally sat down and put words to today. The confusion concerning the Devil is a central conceit here...among other things, the Serpent in Eden is often held to be the Devil and a liar, but if you read the text it's clear that the serpent spoke only the truth. So what's that say about God in that story?

With regards to particulars, it's true that by all appearances, much of Pagan iconography was folded into early Christianity for largely propagandic purposes: to paint the outgroup (pagans) as synonymous with evil and so forth.

Beelzebub is actually a really good example of this, being a contortion of Ba'al Zevul, ('The Exalted Lord'/'The Lord, Exalted') of the old near eastern religions including the Canaanites. They wanted to tear Ba'al down as a god, and part of doing so was playing this word-game with his name, transforming him from an exalted lord of the world into the lord of flies, painting him as only ruling over those that ate filth.

Lucifer is a trickier link, owing much to references to the planet Venus which was referred to as the Morning Star, and so on. As is often the case, the conflation of Ha-Satan, the Opposer, with these other figures, was used much to increase the breadth and power of the Enemy of God as a concept. This is basically why there are /so many names/ for 'The Devil'.

Ha-Satan, the Opposer, was originally simply a functionary of God's whose job was to oppose those who went astray, or to help test the faith of people like Job at God's discretion. Everything after that is propaganda...or, as this little essay posits, an act of God's Opposer doing his job (perhaps a bit too cleverly) by opposing and subverting the good development of humanity to see how long it takes us to overcome such obstacles and bad ideas.

References to Azazel and 'The Dragon' are more generic...Azazel was, essentially, sort of god's garbage disposal...it wasn't actually a particular entity or angel, it was where you sent sin offerings/scapegoats 'for absolute removal', to take into the wilderness all the things that could not be allowed into God's presence. Which makes it attractive as a concept to link to the Opposer, since obviously anything unsuitable for God is suitable for the Fly Lord's table of filth.

Dragons, of course, are great and terrible beasts that are good for describing anyone you want people to be scared of as.

For sake of clarity, I should disclose that I'm not a believer myself...I'm an agnostic atheist, though I err on the side of believing that if there /is/ a God of some sort then it seems very unlikely that any human has written with any appreciable accuracy on the subject. Certainly not the Abrahamic portrayals, which are riddled with moral turpitude and logical impossibilities.

One cannot, however, deny the cultural impact they have had and will likely continue having for some time, for better or for worse.

Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: If I Were the Devil
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2016, 10:00:47 AM »
If we look at it as just in the christian religion its has a few oddities just in the person of the devil him self who is is most commonly* seen as a fallen or rebellious angels.

He was also purported to be God's favorite out of all the Angels. The most beloved son. (Then he threw a tantrum when Daddy brought home the new baby.)


Quote
.Modern views think of angels as the dudes with wings and the equipment of a ken doll but if you look at old descriptions you actually come up with a lot of really funky shit 

I actually love the more Eldritch appearances..for some reason it just makes them feel more real to me.

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They also say that when you see the devil, he will be beautiful, probably because he still appears like an angel, or at least what Humans perceive an angel to be.

Ive heard that its just that the devil has many names, but I've also heard that Satan is a name we've applied overtime to multiple evil beings without realizing it.

Quote
.For sake of clarity, I should disclose that I'm not a believer myself

Believer here, and being one is nothing special. Its like being given a title, it doesn't matter what it is, just what you do with it. Sadly many use it as an excuse to act like their shit doesn't stink and they can be assholes to all non believers and *insane rage filled ranting.*



EDIT

Quote
.  The confusion concerning the Devil is a central conceit here...among other things, the Serpent in Eden is often held to be the Devil and a liar, but if you read the text it's clear that the serpent spoke only the truth. So what's that say about God in that story?

Perhaps, but he still got us kicked out of Eden. "Well if I can't be in heaven then you Humans sure as Fuck wont be in Father's good graces either!"

God also did tell us 'hey only rule, don't eat the apple.'

« Last Edit: April 12, 2016, 10:09:28 AM by Lustful Bride »

Offline Far eyes

Re: If I Were the Devil
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2016, 10:33:04 AM »
Old Testement god sometimes sounds more like a raging alcoholic then any sort of divine being. Though granted a lot of the divine beings of mythology were kind of ass-hats Greek and Norse both though the least you could say for them is it was kind of expected.

I actually have not herd that linking of Lucifer and Venus. Though its an interesting linking of her considering the Roman deity or the Greek version Aphrodite (Romans basically hijacked there entire pantheon and filed the numbers off) It dos give Lucifer a fairly female bend.

My personal christian favorite mythological figure is still Lilith Addams totally not divorced lets not talk about her wife, she also always struck me as appealing because based on the legend she is basically the only person ever to go "Fuck this shit i am out" from paradise, refusing to bend a knee so to say and instead leaving. 

In modern fiction the version i really personally find very interesting is Dresden Files Denarians (30 silver coins)
  http://dresdenfiles.wikia.com/wiki/Fallen_Angel
« Last Edit: April 12, 2016, 10:36:31 AM by Far eyes »

Offline VaporWareTopic starter

Re: If I Were the Devil
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2016, 10:45:22 AM »
Perhaps, but he still got us kicked out of Eden. "Well if I can't be in heaven then you Humans sure as Fuck wont be in Father's good graces either!"

God also did tell us 'hey only rule, don't eat the apple.'

I'm coming at the story from a more allegorical angle here. The 'Apple' was the fruit of knowledge, in particular, knowledge of good and evil. God's command here is tantamount to 'Obey me: remain ignorant. If you learn, you will die.'

The Serpent then informs them of the true nature of the fruit of knowledge, and so on. Stepping back, this always felt to me somewhat horribly manipulated, especially given the common conceit of God's own purported knowledge and wisdom. That's part of what I'm really asking with this essay: the portrayal of God in Genesis is in many ways inconsistent with claims about God (he lies, and either feigns ignorance or cannot find Adam and Eve despite his supposed omniscience, etc.). Is this God, or is this someone else wearing God's name? And if it is not God, then who is the Serpent a servitor of? And so on.

It all sort of goes back to a question that came up in my debates with a friend as a youth: when you pray, how do you know what answers? You only have their word for it, and a nebulous emotional feeling that both God and Angels are noted for manipulating. And as you observe, Ha-Satan remains in beautiful countenance as an Angel. Could you, as a human, tell Satan from God?

If you reject as the product of sin the knowledge of good and evil taken in by Adam and Eve, how can you?

This is, of course, all taking the Biblical narrative at face value. It's worth studying it's antecedents in Sumeria, but that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: If I Were the Devil
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2016, 10:57:09 AM »
Old Testement god sometimes sounds more like a raging alcoholic then any sort of divine being. Though granted a lot of the divine beings of mythology were kind of ass-hats Greek and Norse both though the least you could say for them is it was kind of expected.

To be fair though it was a different time. We were more savage, merciless and so he had to be just as savage to protect his own.
It takes a Wolf to protect the Sheep. 

I cant remember the part of the bible but it has in it God speaking to, I think David when he was a king and telling him to kill off an entire tribe, down to the children. And as horrible as that sounds it makes some sense when you think about it. What will you do with the noncombatants of the tribe? Leave them to starve? Be killed by another faction? Have their children grow up hating the Hebrews for killing their parents and come back later in greater numbers?

And if you take them in you have the same problem only now itl be from within your own walls that they attack.



Quote
The Serpent then informs them of the true nature of the fruit of knowledge, and so on. Stepping back, this always felt to me somewhat horribly manipulated, especially given the common conceit of God's own purported knowledge and wisdom. That's part of what I'm really asking with this essay: the portrayal of God in Genesis is in many ways inconsistent with claims about God (he lies, and either feigns ignorance or cannot find Adam and Eve despite his supposed omniscience, etc.). Is this God, or is this someone else wearing God's name? And if it is not God, then who is the Serpent a servitor of? And so on

I always just thought that either he disallowed himself to see all that there is to see, or sees things in probabilities, the endless waves and rivers that break apart, splinter, join together, etc etc.

Quote
My personal christian favorite mythological figure is still Lilith Addams totally not divorced lets not talk about her wife, she also always struck me as appealing because based on the legend she is basically the only person ever to go "Fuck this shit i am out" from paradise, refusing to bend a knee so to say and instead leaving. 

Didn't she end up with the Angel of Death or something?..i don't recall and well internet is no help.


Quote
It all sort of goes back to a question that came up in my debates with a friend as a youth: when you pray, how do you know what answers? You only have their word for it, and a nebulous emotional feeling that both God and Angels are noted for manipulating. And as you observe, Ha-Satan remains in beautiful countenance as an Angel. Could you, as a human, tell Satan from God?

If you reject as the product of sin the knowledge of good and evil taken in by Adam and Eve, how can you?

Meh, fucked if you do, fucked if you don't. Guess we wont know till the end.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2016, 10:58:29 AM by Lustful Bride »

Offline Far eyes

Re: If I Were the Devil
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2016, 11:14:48 AM »
Didn't she end up with the Angel of Death or something?..i don't recall and well internet is no help.

Samael, who is refereed to in that position amongst other things but from remember ever reading about it, she kind of had a short relationship with him and left apparently they were to much of an odd couple. And there is also the whole thing ware God tended to be really upset about crossbreeding of angels and mortals

Offline Oniya

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Re: If I Were the Devil
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2016, 12:00:40 PM »
Interesting linguistical note:  The word satanus means 'Adversary'.  Not in the sense of an enemy, but as in the sense of a debate where the purpose is to try to find and show the flaws in the other person's argument (thereby allowing them to refine and strengthen it.)

Satan is literally the first 'devil's advocate'.

Offline Far eyes

Re: If I Were the Devil
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2016, 12:15:24 PM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel

I could not find the site i was actually thinking of, but this has a description of some of the Archangels i believe the site i had in mind was much the same just more to the point. It was one of those old type sites that mostly look like somebody typed it up in word so i guess it was just taken offline at some point.

its down near the middle of the page

Offline TaintedAndDelish

Re: If I Were the Devil
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2016, 07:58:50 PM »
Some thoughts:

1. You eat the fruit, you shed your ignorance and die. No, on the contrary, you shed your ignorance and "god" dies, not you. The question here though, is who wrote the story and what was their intention? Did they want to scare the reader into being ignorant, or did they want to enlighten and liberate the reader? Perhaps it wasn't deliberate either. The story could have been kept alive because it was liked or "somehow rang true."

2. I've often wondered how much of these religions were the result of trying herd people for survival or political reason, how much of it was just ignorance and superstition run wild, and how much of this might just be a result of people behaving in accordance to the way their brains are wired. This creation of religion and gods and subsequent adherence and rebellion might be something that we cannot avoid doing as much as fish will swim because that's just part of what they are.

3. Being an atheist, I view the belief and communion with the supernatural as people projecting their own selves or ideas onto an external source. ( Yes, this is something new that I've been thinking about ).  I'm starting to think that perhaps this and art, are more or less means for accessing portions of the self that we are not conscious of. Ie. if I project this idea of an abusive irrational god, then perhaps that reveals something more about myself. it could be some sort of an unwitting and dubious confession. If a group of people do the same then it could mean that they have similar subconscious ideas or perhaps they are tapping into what Carl Jung would call an "archetype" or some sort of pattern in the mind that's hard wired there. It could also be that they are expressing some sort of common or cultural ideas.


Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: If I Were the Devil
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2016, 08:24:58 PM »
Some thoughts:

1. You eat the fruit, you shed your ignorance and die. No, on the contrary, you shed your ignorance and "god" dies, not you. The question here though, is who wrote the story and what was their intention? Did they want to scare the reader into being ignorant, or did they want to enlighten and liberate the reader? Perhaps it wasn't deliberate either. The story could have been kept alive because it was liked or "somehow rang true."

But is ignorance so bad?

What if gaining the knowledge from the apple was more like saying you will grow up, and lose your innocence, exchanging it for knowledge and cynicism? Can you know pain if all you know is love and joy?


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2. I've often wondered how much of these religions were the result of trying herd people for survival or political reason, how much of it was just ignorance and superstition run wild, and how much of this might just be a result of people behaving in accordance to the way their brains are wired.

I will grant you that, since in the beginning it was probably one of (possibly the only at some points) the only thing that people had to hold onto to give them reason to get up in the morning, and helped civilizations first start by having people coble together and work with one another.

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This creation of religion and gods and subsequent adherence and rebellion might be something that we cannot avoid doing as much as fish will swim because that's just part of what they are.
You know ive never seen someone argue that before...fascinating...


Quote
3. Being an atheist, I view the belief and communion with the supernatural as people projecting their own selves or ideas onto an external source. ( Yes, this is something new that I've been thinking about ).  I'm starting to think that perhaps this and art, are more or less means for accessing portions of the self that we are not conscious of. Ie. if I project this idea of an abusive irrational god, then perhaps that reveals something more about myself. it could be some sort of an unwitting and dubious confession. If a group of people do the same then it could mean that they have similar subconscious ideas or perhaps they are tapping into what Carl Jung would call an "archetype" or some sort of pattern in the mind that's hard wired there. It could also be that they are expressing some sort of common or cultural ideas.

So you think its more of a projection of our inner Ids,Egos and Superegos?....again im fascinated now.

So then what does that say about you as an atheist? No offense meant at all by the way, im just actually curious as to what that would mean for the sake of this idea here. Does it mean a deeper part of you has no hope that things will ever be perfect/totally cut and dry as "This side good and that side bad". or...idk im not good at psychoanalasis.

Or maybe its the idea of disliking predestination or that something out there knows all that there is and we only exist because it deems it so?
« Last Edit: April 13, 2016, 08:46:57 PM by Lustful Bride »

Offline Far eyes

Re: If I Were the Devil
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2016, 09:06:56 PM »
1) The "Fruit" is often seen as knowledge, once we have knowledge or the methods to seek and acquire it we can no longer accept 'god' in his pure and simple form we question motives we seek and strive for answers and we disagree. Personally i have always seen this portion of the bible as one of those that should not be seen or taken literally. Paradise is blissful ignorance, the simple 'joy' that we can no longer have because we know and question and want.   

2) A lot of religions have, philosophies at its basis. Buddhism is perhaps the clearest ,major religion for this as it maintains a lot of its core 'philosophy' rather then strictly being religion, Its an interesting one. But the actually creation of religion is often a complected bundle of needs, and often times the sincere need to explain events that are life changing and out of the control of man. It is often things that are scary, look at theological pantheons with multiple gods there characterizations is often commentary on how people precived those things, and what was important to them.   

Christianity has a lot of philosophy at its core to but its much more codified and rigid now. 
« Last Edit: April 13, 2016, 09:22:39 PM by Far eyes »

Offline TaintedAndDelish

Re: If I Were the Devil
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2016, 09:27:22 PM »
But is ignorance so bad?

What if gaining the knowledge from the apple was more like saying you will grow up, and lose your innocence, exchanging it for knowledge and cynicism? Can you know pain if all you know is love and joy?

I can see mythology and superstition as something that comes before knowledge. It might be better than no knowledge at all and yes, it would make sense if you look a this story as a progression from innocence to indoctrination to enlightenment. You could argue that Adam and Eve were indoctrinated when told right from wrong, but without being told why. With the "why" part comes knowledge or enlightenment.

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So you think its more of a projection of our inner Ids,Egos and Superegos?....again im fascinated now.

Yes, absolutely. I believe that whatever it is, like art, it comes from within and reveals something about both the artist and the audience to the extent that they keep and cherish the art. "What" it reveals exactly, is another story.

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So then what does that say about you as an atheist?

That I am dead inside.  o.o   lol 
Seriously, I think part of this is that there is much that we do not know about ourselves.

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No offense meant at all by the way, im just actually curious as to what that would mean for the sake of this idea here. Does it mean a deeper part of you has no hope that things will ever be perfect/totally cut and dry as "This side good and that side bad". or...idk im not good at psychoanalasis.

I have lot of anger towards religions and religious people. I think I project a lot of that outwards towards innocent religions and religious folks without always realizing it and who knows, the source of that anger could be my own feelings of insecurity, fears of bring wrong, suppressed, or at fault, or whatever. While I don't go around talking to gods and spirits, I do spend a lot of time bashing them and the people who natter on about them, so in some ways, I'm equally connected to these imaginary friends of theirs.

Ick.. I want to puke now.


Quote
Or maybe its the idea of disliking predestination or that something out there knows all that there is and we only exist because it deems it so?

It could be. It could also be that religious folks are actually right to some degree despite not really being able to explain themselves logically. Maybe there's some sort of truth that cannot be explained by logic in the same way that there are numbers (like primes or the digits of pi ) that don't really seem to follow a logical or predictable pattern. I'm not a mathematician, so I'll don't want to go too far in this direction, but maybe the tools we have for reasoning have some limitations or blind spots.


« Last Edit: April 13, 2016, 09:29:34 PM by TaintedAndDelish »

Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: If I Were the Devil
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2016, 09:42:19 PM »

That I am dead inside.  o.o   lol 
Seriously, I think part of this is that there is much that we do not know about ourselves.

awwww *pulls you in for an embrace*

Then we must science this! Science isn't about why? Its about How! and Combustible lemons.

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I have lot of anger towards religions and religious people. I think I project a lot of that outwards towards innocent religions and religious folks without always realizing it and who knows, the source of that anger could be my own feelings of insecurity, fears of bring wrong, suppressed, or at fault, or whatever. While I don't go around talking to gods and spirits, I do spend a lot of time bashing them and the people who natter on about them, so in some ways, I'm equally connected to these imaginary friends of theirs.

Ick.. I want to puke now.

Hate is a learned emotion. We are taught to hate, but its in out nature to love one another...*pulls you in for another hug*
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I always subscribe to the school of "Don't fuck with me, I wont fuck with you." (I blame my father for making me swear so much) but I don't give anybody problems until they give me one. Its perfectly fine to harbor negative feelings...I think... towards other people, so long as you do not lash out at them or let it cloud your judgement.

Don't hit someone just because they are X, because it just makes you a bigot and don't deny them service just because they are X. It only makes you the vilanous one, the cruel and vile one.

But you don't have to love and bend over backwards for everyone. We aren't machines, and while we don't have to agree with everyone, we can at least respect them. (Unless they are Nazis or the WBC.) But like I was saying, hate someone because they are an A-hole, a know it all, a liar, a cheater a racist, an..ethnocentirst or whatever. But not for 'What' they are. Its not right and only hurts humanity. The only way Humans are to survive into the future, is if we abandon all these ISMS that we have tied to ourselves, Racism, Sexism, classism...religiousism? (IE: Hating someone for either having a god, a different god or not having one at all.)

We must be united when we meet those Xenos. :P A united Humanity now and forever.

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It could be. It could also be that religious folks are actually right to some degree despite not really being able to explain themselves logically. Maybe there's some sort of truth that cannot be explained by logic in the same way that there are numbers (like primes or the digits of pi ) that don't really seem to follow a logical or predictable pattern. I'm not a mathematician, so I'll don't want to go too far in this direction, but maybe the tools we have for reasoning have some limitations

Also if you think about it, a being that literally created the universe and is the reason the atoms keep spinning and the sun dosen't just explode on a whim, could easily hide itself if it wished without really trying. Wanting its followers to be with it because they agree not because they want to be brown nosers going after the fact "You see I believed all along, I never once doubted."

Though that would lead to being surrounded by an Echo chamber but don't we all want that? *shrug* I guess il have my answer eventually.

« Last Edit: April 13, 2016, 09:55:50 PM by Lustful Bride »

Offline Far eyes

Re: If I Were the Devil
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2016, 09:58:45 PM »
Logic biggest limiting factor is the one applying it. I think i am roughly quoting it right and it kind of slips my mind who i am quoting.

But again, religions are based on Philosophy a lot of there core principles are not bad, in fact they are commonly quiet basic and protein to basic behavior "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" basic and a good idea. Its value is not less or more because you believe the faith around it or you do not.

The Buddhist "Eightfold Path" is basically "Dont be an asshole" in 8 different ways its an interesting read. And as mentioned its a lot more Philosophy then religion.

Even relatively new/old religions have philosophies that deal with very similar things you have Wicca and "Rule of Three" and "That it harm none, do as thou wilt" Wicca is kind of an interesting mess, though also some what badly represented by the media even well meaning.

Its usually when religions tray and get into the more "timely" morality that they tangle and trip and are left with a mess.

Offline TaintedAndDelish

Re: If I Were the Devil
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2016, 10:27:03 PM »

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Hate is a learned emotion. We are taught to hate, but its in out nature to love one another...

I'm not sure I agree with that but I do get your point.

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Its usually when religions tray and get into the more "timely" morality that they tangle and trip and are left with a mess.

Yeah, I agree with you there.

Tying back in to the original post, wouldn't it be easier to just build the very seeds of destruction into the living being at the moment of creation? Make it man's (sorry, feminists out there :/ ) nature to attribute their inner reservoirs of anger, attachment, bliss, hope and whatever into imaginary external entities that they call gods? Make it their nature to worship and fight over their own ideas, and to destroy one another in order to come out on top? In such a case, said god or devil would not have to lift a finger once the initial work was done.

Regarding this, have you ever heard of self assembling materials?

The idea is that the materials assemble automatically due to their shape or properties.





I think that perhaps people might be like this in some ways. Doomed to form and follow certain patterns.


Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: If I Were the Devil
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2016, 10:32:51 PM »
Tying back in to the original post, wouldn't it be easier to just build the very seeds of destruction into the living being at the moment of creation? Make it man's (sorry, feminists out there :/ ) nature to attribute their inner reservoirs of anger, attachment, bliss, hope and whatever into imaginary external entities that they call gods? Make it their nature to worship and fight over their own ideas, and to destroy one another in order to come out on top? In such a case, said god or devil would not have to lift a finger once the initial work was done.
Itd be like a massive Chess Game between them.



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Regarding this, have you ever heard of self assembling materials?

The idea is that the materials assemble automatically due to their shape or properties.

I think that perhaps people might be like this in some ways. Doomed to form and follow certain patterns.


In that case there are 2 ways to look at it.

A: Not really since a Human can still put a gun in their mouth and blow their brains out if they desire. We are only as bound to our instincts as we allow ourselves. They serve us well and guide us but at the end of the day we are the ones in full control and are the ones that make the final decision on what we do.

B: It doesn't really matter since we are possibly all chess pieces moving on some cosmic entities chess board,(or just being pulled along byt he puppet strings of Nature)  only we realize it, but we are so programmed that its really no point in fighting the programming since without it we have nothing else...*shrug*


Offline Far eyes

Re: If I Were the Devil
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2016, 06:09:50 AM »
Oh man the fatalism, i think i need a drink.

I am not a huge fan of fatalism, it is in its very nature an useless principle as an end result, but an interesting one as a mid step. Because if you truly believe that noting matters then you are in no way bound to not be what you want to be. Not everything has to have grand meaning in order to have meaning. Witch is the flaw of fate, fate assigns every little thing to a grater whole this perfect stage play ware nobody ever flubs a line or trips. Because the idea of random chance is scary, because humans love prescribing meaning to all things even if that leaves them scared because it means they could potentially be responsible for all things and so we get to Fatalism, its not my fault it was going to happen anyway.   

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Tying back in to the original post, wouldn't it be easier to just build the very seeds of destruction into the living being at the moment of creation?


Well that would sort of assume accepting creationism and intelligent design as a sound principle, witch i do not so no. Mans problem is not that he is self destructive its that at his core he is still 5000BC we fight things out and had to realize, we had to scare our selfs by doing something so destructive that the end stared us in the face before we put on the brakes.

Man is not self destructive, as you can see we are still here despite all doom and gloom and "The End Is Nigh" being popular since well i am sure some asshole shouted it as his first words in the first spoken speech ever created.   

Offline Aethereal

Re: If I Were the Devil
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2016, 06:28:05 AM »
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Not everything has to have grand meaning in order to have meaning.
      Well put. Things have meaning because I decided they do, and that's enough.

        I'd rather be a coincidence than some game piece for someone to manipulate. I'd much rather all bad in the world exists just because it just happened to occur, as opposed to someone coming and *deliberately* making people I love suffer...

Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: If I Were the Devil
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2016, 11:21:30 AM »


Well that would sort of assume accepting creationism and intelligent design as a sound principle, witch i do not so no. Mans problem is not that he is self destructive its that at his core he is still 5000BC we fight things out and had to realize, we had to scare our selfs by doing something so destructive that the end stared us in the face before we put on the brakes.

Man is not self destructive, as you can see we are still here despite all doom and gloom and "The End Is Nigh" being popular since well i am sure some asshole shouted it as his first words in the first spoken speech ever created.

"The fact that for the entirety of the Cold War we held the weapons to our annihilation within our hands for many years, and are still alive, speaks to the better nature of mankind. :-)

(Though ive met some people who believe the Cold war never happened and that its all a lie by the Illuminati for bla bla bla bla lba)

Offline Far eyes

Re: If I Were the Devil
« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2016, 12:10:10 PM »
If its not the Illuminati its the free masons or the lizard people, when really its the smurfs they just dont want you to know. *Caughs violently* Sorry choked on some congealed sarcasm there :P

Though i do find my self sometimes drawn to the conspiracy theorists, not because i think they are right but rather because i want to hear what they substitute the best approximation of what happened we have with. And maybe more interestingly what there justification for the need for these changes is so some idea they have had can work.