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Author Topic: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8  (Read 8654 times)

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Online Oniya

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Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #50 on: November 23, 2008, 04:33:57 PM »
Most religions I've encountered have at least one nugget of - at least copper among the slag.

Offline The OverlordTopic starter

Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #51 on: November 23, 2008, 06:38:05 PM »
it's simplified but a good deal true. Joseph Smith said "As man is God once was, as God is man may become.

As for me, I think it's a dam sight better then believing our only one purpose is to become angles to solely serve and worship God for ever and ever. I's a pointless future. At least they believe we have a equal potential as he had to create.

opinion only

What we're really talking here, then, is Ancient Astronaut Theory turned theology.

EDIT- Oh, did I mention the glaringly racist part?

Offline Sugarman (hal)

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Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #52 on: November 23, 2008, 06:49:56 PM »
What we're really talking here, then, is Ancient Astronaut Theory turned theology.

EDIT- Oh, did I mention the glaringly racist part?

Isn't it that way?  All Christians believe that God came down and had sex with Mary, thereby creating a highbred son called Jesus Christ.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2008, 07:27:37 PM by Sugarman (hal) »

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #53 on: November 23, 2008, 07:24:40 PM »
Isn't it that way?  All Christians believe that God came down and had sex with Marry, thereby creating a highbred son called Jesus Christ.

Not exactly. You want to frequent another of my boards and you'll see some very anti-Mary posting.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #54 on: November 24, 2008, 05:49:15 AM »
For me its a matter of how much they can prove or not. Its clear from any common sense point there is much to question in the Bible like the Exodus of the Hebrews from Egypt ... nice story but no evidence from any source other than the Torah it actually happened. On the other hand a Natural Law minister can point to science, philosophy and common sense to show his position on matters since that is not steeped in some mystical text.

And somehow I think a boycott of Utah would be as effective as the Christians boycotting Disney World down here because of Gay Day. As in not going to really do that much.


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Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #55 on: November 24, 2008, 07:17:10 AM »
Any single-day boycott doesn't do much - like the ones telling people not to buy gas on Day Whatever.  Those people that want/need to do what's being boycotted will simply do their business on another day, thereby making up whatever revenue was lost during the 'boycott'.

Now, if enough people sustain a boycott against Utah... That might get noticed.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #56 on: November 24, 2008, 07:00:22 PM »
Yeah, a sustained boycott on things like... what is it, Park City? Tourism is huge right now in Utah. If people don't go, it will make a dent. The problem is that it seems like the more money a person has, the more conservative they they become... which then puts them in the anti-gay camp. Not all... but most. :(

Offline OldSchoolGamer

Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #57 on: November 24, 2008, 10:24:59 PM »
I'm rather neutral on the whole homosexual marriage issue.  On the one hand, I'm not inclined to work against same-sex marriage--it neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg if two gals living down the street get married, and as an old-school American I believe in Minding My Own Business.  On the other hand, I think we have far more pressing issues to deal with as a society than rewriting our laws and re-engineering our society around homosexual couplings.

Offline The OverlordTopic starter

Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #58 on: November 25, 2008, 06:56:59 AM »
On the other hand, I think we have far more pressing issues to deal with as a society than rewriting our laws and re-engineering our society around homosexual couplings.

Which is why we should stop bickering about it and mature as a nation and realize that gay people are part of society like anyone else and there's nothing you can do about that...pass the damn law, legalize it, and move onto the important stuff like economy, getting our troops out of Iraq in a timely withdrawal plan and let Mr. Obama patch up our tarnished global relations.

Enough of this bitching from the opponents, get over it already.


Offline Revolverman

Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #59 on: November 25, 2008, 07:02:42 AM »
Which is why we should stop bickering about it and mature as a nation and realize that gay people are part of society like anyone else and there's nothing you can do about that...pass the damn law, legalize it, and move onto the important stuff like economy, getting our troops out of Iraq in a timely withdrawal plan and let Mr. Obama patch up our tarnished global relations.

Enough of this bitching from the opponents, get over it already.



100% agreement.

Offline Sugarman (hal)

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Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #60 on: November 25, 2008, 01:06:55 PM »
I also agree, but it isn't going to devolve away. There are to many who see it as a fundamental affront to god and secured beliefs.

Offline The OverlordTopic starter

Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #61 on: November 25, 2008, 08:41:30 PM »
I also agree, but it isn't going to devolve away. There are to many who see it as a fundamental affront to god and secured beliefs.

Which again comes down to my original point; ain't none of their business, which means until it's passed, the conservative opponents best get used to the concept of eternal battle over this. Something this fundamental to the human psyche will not go away, or quietly.



On the other hand, I think we have far more pressing issues to deal with as a society than rewriting our laws and re-engineering our society around homosexual couplings.

This particular line I wanted to comment on earlier and forgot to: Based on what I've seen to date, this is a large impetus for the conservatives that are so vocal about this. That we would have to 'reengineer society' to accommodate gay marriage is simply a fabrication of the mind, propagated by misguided theological beliefs. No, nothing would have to be restructured, we simply allow gays to marry and that's it, it's no different a concept than those points in national history when blacks or women were finally allowed to vote...and you know how badly society went to hell in a handbasket when that was allowed. Riiight.

No argument I've against gay marriage holds any real weight, it comes down to theological assumptions and fantasies. If we write our laws based on figments of the imagination, that's certainly cause for concern.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2008, 08:42:34 PM by The Overlord »

Offline Trieste

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Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #62 on: November 25, 2008, 10:42:59 PM »
I also agree, but it isn't going to devolve away. There are to many who see it as a fundamental affront to god and secured beliefs.

There's a lot that has been resisted in the past because it's thought to be theologically wrong. Both sides can be equally shrill, but I do wonder if those who are fighting 'against' worry that extra little bit because it really just seems like a matter of time...

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Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #63 on: November 28, 2008, 06:06:59 PM »
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081125/ap_on_re_us/gay_marriage_mormons;_ylt=Amm.BBI4RW2LwSRdGZI9QVQ7Xs8F

To get this a little back on topic, it looks as if someone's taking notice about the issue.

Offline Older And Wiser

Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #64 on: November 29, 2008, 10:51:40 AM »
I think religiousgroups should not be alloed to politicize in their churches regadless of their state. And if they do, they should lose their special tax exempt status. Mabe that'll get these goddamned ministers and priests and reverends to shut the hell up about politics and talk about, oh, I don't know...GOD?

I think we need to be careful about that Apple.  There are certainly moral issues that occur in the realm of public policy.  As a Buddhist, for example, I am compelled by my religion to oppose the war in Iraq for its destruction of the lives of innocent sentient beings.  I favor many of the programs that the religous right would label "socialist" because no being can find happiness or peace when certain basic needs go unfulfilled (food, shelter, health care as prime examples). 

I have many Christian friends who feel their faith compels them to the same political action, and they seek social justice and peace because of their faith.  Consider, for example Soujourners (http://www.sojo.net/) or the Catholic Worker movement of the churches open and accepting of gay members http://www.ucc.org/lgbt/.

I suspect you would find yourself in agreement with many of these sentiments.  The big problem is that the media focuses on the loudest mouthes, not necessarily the most intelligent speakers.  So you get maniacs like Focus on Family with no seperate reporting from Catholic Bishops, or mainline liberal protestants, or the local Rabbi, or local Buddhist, all of whom tend to have moderate, reasoned voices, not shrill ones.


Offline Older And Wiser

Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #65 on: November 29, 2008, 11:02:53 AM »
Yeah, a sustained boycott on things like... what is it, Park City? Tourism is huge right now in Utah. If people don't go, it will make a dent. The problem is that it seems like the more money a person has, the more conservative they they become... which then puts them in the anti-gay camp. Not all... but most. :(

Yes Trieste it is Park City.  The snow there is awesome, but I can tell you from experience that Colorado is just a great, if not better, for the average to expert skier.  In addition, it is far easier to find adult beverages apres ski, as we do not have Utah's screwy liqour laws.

The only thing you can not find is Poligamy Porter - my favorite name for a micro brew beer.  Why have just One?
http://www.wasatchbeers.com/polygporter.html
 ;D


Offline Revolverman

Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #66 on: November 29, 2008, 11:06:43 AM »
I think we need to be careful about that Apple.  There are certainly moral issues that occur in the realm of public policy.  As a Buddhist, for example, I am compelled by my religion to oppose the war in Iraq for its destruction of the lives of innocent sentient beings.  I favor many of the programs that the religous right would label "socialist" because no being can find happiness or peace when certain basic needs go unfulfilled (food, shelter, health care as prime examples). 

I have many Christian friends who feel their faith compels them to the same political action, and they seek social justice and peace because of their faith.  Consider, for example Soujourners (http://www.sojo.net/) or the Catholic Worker movement of the churches open and accepting of gay members http://www.ucc.org/lgbt/.

I suspect you would find yourself in agreement with many of these sentiments.  The big problem is that the media focuses on the loudest mouthes, not necessarily the most intelligent speakers.  So you get maniacs like Focus on Family with no seperate reporting from Catholic Bishops, or mainline liberal protestants, or the local Rabbi, or local Buddhist, all of whom tend to have moderate, reasoned voices, not shrill ones.



I disagree with any church supporting ANY political party, issue or anything. Using the threat of supernatural retaliation when politics are involved leads to very bad things.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #67 on: November 29, 2008, 11:19:21 AM »
Bwahaha. Awesome name for a beer, I'll give it that.

I have only been skiing on the east coast here, and I have to say that I couldn't stand the Poconos. I much prefer the White Mountains... though it's been a while.

As far as religious policies and agitating for a better life ... that's the way it should be. If half the money that has been put into campaigning for or against gay marriage were put into things like food banks and homeless shelters, can you imagine how much good it would do? Communities - be they religious or not - need to focus more on helping hose who want to change, not those who are unapologetically on the wrong path (even if that 'wrong' path is homosexuality). Yes, I support the legalization of gay marriage, but that's not why I'm disappointed in the mormons. They chose to take resources and use them to harm, in the house of another no less, when it could have been used to help instead. That's what I think they did wrong - and that is with regards to any issue.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #68 on: November 29, 2008, 02:01:16 PM »
I think we need to be careful about that Apple.  There are certainly moral issues that occur in the realm of public policy.  As a Buddhist, for example, I am compelled by my religion to oppose the war in Iraq for its destruction of the lives of innocent sentient beings.  I favor many of the programs that the religous right would label "socialist" because no being can find happiness or peace when certain basic needs go unfulfilled (food, shelter, health care as prime examples). 

I have many Christian friends who feel their faith compels them to the same political action, and they seek social justice and peace because of their faith.  Consider, for example Soujourners (http://www.sojo.net/) or the Catholic Worker movement of the churches open and accepting of gay members http://www.ucc.org/lgbt/.

I suspect you would find yourself in agreement with many of these sentiments.  The big problem is that the media focuses on the loudest mouthes, not necessarily the most intelligent speakers.  So you get maniacs like Focus on Family with no seperate reporting from Catholic Bishops, or mainline liberal protestants, or the local Rabbi, or local Buddhist, all of whom tend to have moderate, reasoned voices, not shrill ones.



I am in a tax paying church and we are very political since paying taxes frees the church from those laws that restrict our speech, in fact the seperation of Church and State doctrine and the tax exemptions unduly restrict a Church or other body to its First Amendment rights. So yes I think every church should pay taxes perhaps not a legitimate charity such as a homeless shelter or the like but the holdy sanctuary proper should.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #69 on: November 29, 2008, 03:44:04 PM »
I disagree with any church supporting ANY political party, issue or anything. Using the threat of supernatural retaliation when politics are involved leads to very bad things.

 It's their right to do so, provided they follow the laws. Everyone and every organization has the right of Free Speech. It's how they use it that  turns people on or off. The Mormon Church used it in a way that annoyed a lot of people. Whether it is legal or not has not been decided.

 Personally I think marriage should be strictly a religious ceremony, with no legal standing at all. Civil unions between consenting adults is what should be legal. That way any religion can operate by it's standards as long as they do not break the bill of Rights. You need a government license to marry already, so marriage by a priest isn't worth much. *shrug*

Offline The OverlordTopic starter

Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #70 on: November 29, 2008, 03:53:01 PM »
It's their right to do so, provided they follow the laws. Everyone and every organization has the right of Free Speech. It's how they use it that  turns people on or off. The Mormon Church used it in a way that annoyed a lot of people. Whether it is legal or not has not been decided.

 Personally I think marriage should be strictly a religious ceremony, with no legal standing at all. Civil unions between consenting adults is what should be legal. That way any religion can operate by it's standards as long as they do not break the bill of Rights. You need a government license to marry already, so marriage by a priest isn't worth much. *shrug*

Maybe that's the problem; in the arena of politics perhaps religion has too many rights in what it can get away with and needs to get blunted sharply on the nose so it pulls its head back and thinks twice.

Supernatural retaliation, yeah I think that phrase more or less sums it up, and I don't like the tone of it. Not one bit.

Where some may be content to be god fearing because of that dogma, for me it does the opposite. If god, whatever you want call it, and I am using it because I'm not even convinced gender applies to a supernatural being, wants me to be afraid of it just because, then it's my enemy. That true of any mortal being and it's going to apply to anything beyond as well.



Offline Zakharra

Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #71 on: November 29, 2008, 05:52:29 PM »
Maybe that's the problem; in the arena of politics perhaps religion has too many rights in what it can get away with and needs to get blunted sharply on the nose so it pulls its head back and thinks twice.

 I agree with that to a point. They have the right to speak out on the issues that are important to them. There are many in this country that would cut Christianity and to a lesser extent, other religions, out of all public view.  From holding office, supporting candidates, having crosses on their buildings, removal of all religious symbols from everything, including historical and cultural buildings, monuments and symbols(like city/county/state seals).

 People might not like it, but they do have the right to speak. I'm not a Christian, so I ignore most of what they might 'threaten' me with. they have their god, I have mine. Meh.

Offline The OverlordTopic starter

Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #72 on: November 30, 2008, 12:08:51 AM »



Well, members of any faith, Christian or otherwise, have the right to speak out on the issues. The problem lies in the fact of what they do in general, which includes this Mormon issue that is the topic of this thread. It's not enough for them to dislike gay marriage, they have to make sure nobody can practice it.

In pushing your theology in this manner, you are effectively trying to make everyone follow the ethics of your church, no matter if they're a member or not; this is something that should elicit a major, hard-core WTF from anyone with an ounce of sense and tolerance in them.

Regardless of what they might believe, this is religion stepping way out of bounds, and at least in my view, it's grounds to fight on any level, even resorting to violence if all other options are expired.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #73 on: November 30, 2008, 10:19:21 AM »


Well, members of any faith, Christian or otherwise, have the right to speak out on the issues. The problem lies in the fact of what they do in general, which includes this Mormon issue that is the topic of this thread. It's not enough for them to dislike gay marriage, they have to make sure nobody can practice it.

In pushing your theology in this manner, you are effectively trying to make everyone follow the ethics of your church, no matter if they're a member or not; this is something that should elicit a major, hard-core WTF from anyone with an ounce of sense and tolerance in them.

Regardless of what they might believe, this is religion stepping way out of bounds, and at least in my view, it's grounds to fight on any level, even resorting to violence if all other options are expired.


 To a point I agree with that. Historically, the US was a very Christian nation, following the Bible, more or less. It's the 'American Way' in many minds. To move away from that is to change the warp and woof of the American cultural fabric. To make it less 'American'. As they see it, it is others (people like you*) who are forcing their strange view on what god fearing Americans should know. So they have every right to fight those changes, and like it or not, the majority of voters in California did vote to amend the State constitution to make marriage  only between a man and woman.

 This will be taken to the US Supreme court, since the 9th Circuit can't automatically override a State constitution.

 *  is not necessarily the viewer, but those that are coming down against religion and their views. Which includes me to a degree.

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Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #74 on: November 30, 2008, 10:36:22 AM »
If they find out there was some sort of impropriety in the vote, couldn't they put it up for a re-vote?