You are either not logged in or not registered with our community. Click here to register.
 
December 04, 2016, 06:26:42 AM

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Click here if you are having problems.
Default Wide Screen Beige Lilac Rainbow Black & Blue October Send us your theme!

Hark!  The Herald!
Holiday Issue 2016

Wiki Blogs Dicebot

Author Topic: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8  (Read 8631 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline The OverlordTopic starter

Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« on: November 08, 2008, 01:37:40 AM »

Let me say as a heterosexual male that believes civil rights must apply to everyone or they mean nothing, I hope they give them hell. I won't put a dime into Utah either, I'm sick to heck of the religious right sticking its two cents into other people's lives. I'm to the point of thinking that if they can't respect others then extermination of these organizations is an option.


We ARE a divided nation, deal with it, and we will never, never ever see common ground until the right learns its place. Until then, expect a fight.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081108/ap_on_re_us/mormon_backlash_boycott

Quote
SALT LAKE CITY Utah's growing tourism industry and the star-studded Sundance Film Festival are being targeted for a boycott by bloggers, gay rights activists and others seeking to punish the Mormon church for its aggressive promotion of California's ban on gay marriage.

It could be a heavy price to pay. Tourism brings in $6 billion a year to Utah, with world-class skiing, a spectacular red rock country and the film festival founded by Robert Redford, among other popular tourist draws.

"At a fundamental level, the Utah Mormons crossed the line on this one," said gay rights activist John Aravosis, an influential blogger in Washington, D.C.

"They just took marriage away from 20,000 couples and made their children bastards," he said. "You don't do that and get away with it."

Salt Lake City is the world headquarters for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which counts about 62 percent of Utah residents as members.

The church encouraged its members to work to pass California's Proposition 8 by volunteering their time and money for the campaign. Thousands of Mormons worked as grassroots volunteers and gave tens of millions of dollars to the campaign.

The ballot measure passed Tuesday. It amends the California Constitution to define marriage as a heterosexual act, overriding a state Supreme Court ruling that briefly gave same-sex couples the right to wed.

The backlash against the church and by extension Utah has been immediate. Protests erupted outside Mormon temples, Facebook groups formed telling people to boycott Utah, and Web sites such as mormonsstoleourrights.com began popping up, calling for an end to the church's tax-exempt status.

Church spokeswoman Kim Farah said in a statement about the temple protests Friday that it is "disturbing" that the church is being singled out for exercising its right to speak up in a free election.

"While those who disagree with our position on Proposition 8 have the right to make their feelings known, it is wrong to target the Church and its sacred places of worship for being part of the democratic process," Farah said.

The church had said in a statement after Tuesday's vote that "no one on any side of the question should be vilified, intimidated, harassed or subject to erroneous information."

Aravosis is the editor of the popular americablog.com, which has about 900,000 unique monthly visitors.

He is calling for skiers to choose any state but Utah and for Hollywood actors and directors to pull out of the Sundance Film Festival. Other bloggers and readers have responded to his call.

"There's a movement afoot and large donors are involved who are very interested in organizing a campaign, because I do not believe in frivolous boycotts," said Aravosis, who has helped organize boycotts against "Dr. Laura" Schlessinger's television show, Microsoft and Ford over gay rights issues.

"The main focus is going to be going after the Utah brand," he said. "At this point, honestly, we're going to destroy the Utah brand. It is a hate state."

Gay rights groups did not immediately weigh in on calls for a boycott. Jim Key, spokesman for the Los Angeles Gay & Lesbian Center, said he had heard little about such an effort.

"It's not something that we have called for, but we do think it is important to send a message to the Mormon church," Key said. He noted an effort run by the center to overturn Proposition 8 that sends a postcard to the Mormon church president with each contribution made.

A Sundance spokeswoman didn't return messages. Leigh von der Esch, managing director of the Utah Office of Tourism, said that she's aware there's been discussion of a boycott, but that her office hadn't received any calls about it Thursday. State offices are closed Friday.

"We're respectful of both sides of the equation and realize it's an emotional issue, but we are here promoting what we think is the best state in the country," she said.

What kind of economic, religious or political impact, if any, a boycott might have is unclear. The Mormon church has members all over the world and no plans to change its stance on gay marriage.

Aravosis is not calling for a boycott of California, though that state's voters actually approved the ban.

"At this point, the Californians are the victims and the Mormons are the persecutors," he said. "We had won this until they swept in. ... We need to send a message to Utah that they need to stop trying to inflict their way of life on every other state."

Bob Malone, CEO and president of the Park City Chamber of Commerce and Visitors Bureau, said it is unfair to try to punish certain industries or parts of the state over an issue it had nothing to do with.

"It's really not a Park City thing, and I don't see it as a state thing. That was more of a religious issue," he said. "To sweep people in who really have nothing to do with that issue and have no influence over religious issues it's sad that people kind of think that and say, 'We're going to bury you.' It's sad to hear people talk like that."


« Last Edit: November 11, 2008, 03:54:56 PM by The Overlord »

Offline Storiwyr

Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2008, 04:37:09 AM »
I have to say that I disagree with Bob Malone. It IS a state thing.

I was raised Mormon. By a devout Mormon family. That also happened to be pro-choice and pro-gay rights. The idea of religion and nonjudgmental love for people and respect of their right to make their own choices can and SHOULD coexist.

I used to hate going to Utah to visit family when I was a kid. There was a very arrogant sense from many there of "Utah Mormons are superior" that made me quite miserable and left me feeling excluded by so called "Christians."

In the past it has been policy that the LDS church does not endorse any political candidate or cause, with the idea that such things are down to one's personal conviction. I rather liked that policy and I'm sad to see that in the time since I quit associating myself with the church, things have broken down so badly. I feel for my parents now, and I hope they won't take heat for this in their daily lives. Like many religions that have been used in oppressive and power hungry way, if you look at the religious texts directly it is a religion based on very noble ideas of tolerance, love for others, peace, and a protection of human rights as God given.

This ... just makes me sad.

Offline HairyHeretic

  • Lei varai barbu - The true bearded one
  • Knight
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Dec 2006
  • Location: Ireland
  • Gender: Male
  • And the Scorpion said "Little frog .. I can swim."
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2008, 06:26:15 AM »
Welcome to the wonderfull world of the consequences of your actions.

The church chose, and indeed directed its adherents (from what I can see), to oppose this. Did they think that nothing would come of it? Every choice, every action, has consequences. If you're not prepared to accept those consequences, then don't go making the choices that'll lead to them. And when those consequences do come around, don't go whining about it.

Quote
Church spokeswoman Kim Farah said in a statement about the temple protests Friday that it is "disturbing" that the church is being singled out for exercising its right to speak up in a free election.

"While those who disagree with our position on Proposition 8 have the right to make their feelings known, it is wrong to target the Church and its sacred places of worship for being part of the democratic process," Farah said.

They are making their feelings known, that's the point. Just the same way you and your church did. And last I checked, the Mormon church wasn't a resident of California, so what are they doing voting over there anyway? Or funnelling cash through? Like I said, welcome to the world of consequences.

Offline Storiwyr

Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2008, 06:45:19 AM »
*sighs wearily* There are members everywhere. All over the world. And plenty of them in California. My uncle was heavily involved the last time there was a gay rights measure on the ballot. The members of the LDS church who are citizens of the state of California have as much right to vote there as anyone.

What bothers me is that--despite a long standing policy of staying out of political issues and leaving it up the conscience of the members--they've scrapped that in favor of this sort of lobbying.

I'm not Mormon anymore, nor am I Christian, partially because I am attracted to women and I don't think that a choice to act on that makes me a bad person. Despite that, however, my parents are people I deeply admire and respect, and have a long history of voting in favor of Pro-choice and pro-gay rights interests. What the church is doing officially reflects on all their members. It's a horrible choice, and a clear sign of what happens when you get obsessed with and blinded by an issue and lose sight of the central tenet of every Christian religion ... the idea of love for all humanity. Not just people who are straight.

Offline HairyHeretic

  • Lei varai barbu - The true bearded one
  • Knight
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Dec 2006
  • Location: Ireland
  • Gender: Male
  • And the Scorpion said "Little frog .. I can swim."
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2008, 07:20:51 AM »
*sighs wearily* There are members everywhere. All over the world. And plenty of them in California. My uncle was heavily involved the last time there was a gay rights measure on the ballot. The members of the LDS church who are citizens of the state of California have as much right to vote there as anyone.

Of course there are, and they do. If they are personally opposed to it, then let them contribute, and vote against it. That is their choice and their right.

What bothers me is that--despite a long standing policy of staying out of political issues and leaving it up the conscience of the members--they've scrapped that in favor of this sort of lobbying.

And this is the consequence of that action. And it will have reprocussions on every Mormon, and because the Mormons are so concentrated in Utah, for the entire state as well.

I'm not Mormon anymore, nor am I Christian, partially because I am attracted to women and I don't think that a choice to act on that makes me a bad person. Despite that, however, my parents are people I deeply admire and respect, and have a long history of voting in favor of Pro-choice and pro-gay rights interests. What the church is doing officially reflects on all their members. It's a horrible choice, and a clear sign of what happens when you get obsessed with and blinded by an issue and lose sight of the central tenet of every Christian religion ... the idea of love for all humanity. Not just people who are straight.

There are good people and assholes in every belief in the world .. political, religious, you name it. But when an organisation that claims authority over them makes an annoucement, then it (to some degree) becomes binding on every member of that organisation, regardless of the individuals beliefs, and human nature being what it is, guilt by association will tar the individual until, or unless, they can prove otherwise.

I've also seen the Mormons looked down on by other sects of christianity, who claim that they aren't christians at all. With that simmering away in the background, well, it's not going to help matters any.

Offline Storiwyr

Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2008, 11:23:03 AM »
I'm not defending what they did in the least. I think it's despicable. I told my uncle as much the last time a ballot measure like this came out and he was so vocal and involved and pushing it in his leadership role within the LDS church. I told him he should look around and see who he's walking hand in hand with when he's so passionately engaged in oppressing others.

I guess I just was hoping that the overall leadership of the church would have a little better judgment than that. The LDS church is not the place for me, and I'd never consider going back. Unfortunate though it may be, it will always be a part of my life. My family is still involved, though god knows my mother would fight any political pressure from the church til her last breath. I have many dear friends who are members. And it will be hard for me to talk to them if this issue comes up. Were I still Mormon, I would not be if I heard about something like this. I'd quit in disgust and have a hard time imagining how anyone else could stay with that sort of bigotry and abuse of power that is claimed to be god-given.

But I can't help being disappointed, like finding out your childhood hero isn't quite what you thought it was. I don't believe in the things taught by the Mormon church. I knew there was homophobia involved, but it always seemed to be simmering under the surface--rather than being this blatant, offensive, and supported and pressed by the leadership. Still, I left over it. I do believe in integrity. I believe in people living by what they claim to believe, and allowing others the right to believe what they wish.

I'm not disagreeing with anyone. I'm not saying the boycott is a bad idea--I think it's a rather good one, actually, though I do think it's sad that it could potentially cause job loss for a lot of people who had no involvement and aren't even Mormon. I'm not in the least saying they should escape consequences. They did something stupid and unjust, and there are always repercussions for things like that. I'm just saying that as someone with rather more of an insider view than many would have ... I'm really disappointed and sad. I would have thought that--as a group of people who have been so ill-treated in American history themselves--the church's leadership at least would know better than to turn around and do the same to others.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2008, 11:44:15 AM by Storiwyr »

Offline Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2008, 12:14:27 PM »
I grew up in the D.C. area, so I can confirm that Utah isn't the only concentration of Mormonism.  (I used to drive under the 'Surrender Dorothy' graffiti every day going to work.)   Utah's got the bad rap because of historical reasons (the state was pretty much founded by the Mormons after they got pushed out by all the other states) and - wrongly, I might add - because of some recent scandals involving a splinter group that the LDS probably wishes would just. go. away. 

That being said, although it is the California Mormons' right to vote against Prop 8, it's shady politics when an out-of-state organization exerts pressure on a state constitutional issue.  Here in Ohio, we had Issue 6, which was whether or not to allow a casino to be put in.  Both sides were being heavily lobbied for by out-of-state interests (the man who wanted to put the casino in, and the Indiana casinos who wanted to keep the traffic of Ohio gamblers from drying up).  It failed, but considering the casino supporter's track record with business, I wasn't disappointed.

Offline The OverlordTopic starter

Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2008, 07:01:27 AM »


That being said, although it is the California Mormons' right to vote against Prop 8, it's shady politics when an out-of-state organization exerts pressure on a state constitutional issue. 

What it comes down to is classic Can't Mind Their Own Business.

"We need to send a message to Utah that they need to stop trying to inflict their way of life on every other state." That's what comes down to, kick them where it hurts most. When tourism starts shrinking maybe someone will get the hint.

Offline Apple of Eris

Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2008, 08:48:20 AM »
I think religiousgroups should not be alloed to politicize in their churches regadless of their state. And if they do, they should lose their special tax exempt status. Mabe that'll get these goddamned ministers and priests and reverends to shut the hell up about politics and talk about, oh, I don't know...GOD?

Offline Storiwyr

Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2008, 10:08:57 AM »
I think religiousgroups should not be alloed to politicize in their churches regadless of their state. And if they do, they should lose their special tax exempt status. Mabe that'll get these goddamned ministers and priests and reverends to shut the hell up about politics and talk about, oh, I don't know...GOD?

I agree completely. Seems to me that separation of church and state ought to extend the other way too--at least were legality is concerned. I think that's a perfectly reasonable requirement. Perhaps it would be hard to ban discussing or preaching on it, but actively encouraging a political stance and action like that across state lines? Definitely seems to me that tax-exempt ought to say goodbye.

Offline The OverlordTopic starter

Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2008, 03:51:38 PM »
I've seen this argument rear its ugly head with people close to me. The real problem in my family is that in the early 80's my aunt and uncle moved out of the Chicago area, when we were all still up there, and my cousins were still very young.

They moved into the Tampa/St. Pete's area, it didn't seem to take long before they fell into this crazy church. I mean, this place got up into everyone's business like flies on dung, even getting into it when my aunt and uncle had marital issues (they've long since divorced and I do put part of the blame on these do-rights sticking their nose into it).

I mean these people were whackos...I got my cousin into tabletop D&D not long before they moved, and of course the church decided that was evil as well. My aunt and uncle ended up confiscating his books. It's the same thing later, with groups that want to associate Harry Potter with witchcraft, etc...it's always the same story. Try to identify an evil that wrecking society, all the while missing the fact that YOU ARE the evil.



One of my cousins...well, this the most red-faced and livid I've gotten with any of my extended family, argued passionately against gay marriage, because in her words it violates or destroys the sanctity of marriage. Note that she didn't go and outright call it a sin, but somehow, inexplicably, it messes up 'normal' marriage.


OK, so...hypothetically, you and your significant other are having a perfectly workable and happy marriage and heterosexual relationship. Then one or more gay or lesbian couples move into the neighborhood...do they give off some sort of gay radiation that goes through the walls of your house and ruins your marriage? Seriously.

I have heard plenty of excuses from the opponents, most of time that it's viewed as a sin in the eyes of their faith, and that the alleged offenders are going to hell, or select the disagreeable afterlife of your choosing.

As yet I have not heard a single rational and reasoned argument from the right on this; they're thinking with thier bibles and not their brains, and that's a bad combination. Let me sum it up here-


1. Not everyone goes to your church, you pompous, intolerant prick. Frack you. Some of us take your church as reasonable advice at best, an overblown opinion at worst. Some of us just don't give a shit what you think, and we expect you respect that.

2. Any argument that homosexual marriages somehow taints your own marriages is all your head. This is based on a theological conclusion, on an abstract concept that can never be proven. It's about as fruitful as passing a national proposition to officially recognize the existence of Santa Claus.


That's the thing about this election; we took a big step forwards in equality by electing a black man to our highest office, and then we promptly stepped back on another front by promoting intolerance and bigotry as state law. Although we still have ways to go, racial equality has stepped up dramatically from the civil rights era. In a half century or so we went from a man of color not being allowed to go into the same restaurant as whites, to now walking through the door of the Oval Office.

And that's good, and it means while we still have work to do on that front, racial equality is not the pressing civil rights issue of our current time.

But sexual equality most definitely is.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2008, 04:03:16 PM by The Overlord »

Offline Methos

Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2008, 06:06:10 PM »
Ironically if you read on what caused that proposition to get passed in California it was the fact that there was high turn out among African Americans who supported a ban on gay marriages by a spread of something like 70 -30. So as much as some people might want to blame a religious group for it, blame Obama for getting out the homophobic black vote.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/06/AR2008110603880.html
« Last Edit: November 09, 2008, 06:12:43 PM by Methos »

Offline The OverlordTopic starter

Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2008, 06:35:41 PM »
So as much as some people might want to blame a religious group for it, blame Obama for getting out the homophobic black vote.


Bull.

There is a strong anti-gay segment in each ethnicity. It doesn't fly with the black guys that are trying to be 'the man', and among groups like Hispanics and Arabs homosexuality openly declared is like the kiss of death. I've been around enough of the former to know the machismo crap when I see it.

Those people are going to push for that no matter who runs for office. If you're not keen on Obama taking the presidency, at least blame him for something plausible.


« Last Edit: November 11, 2008, 03:55:46 PM by The Overlord »

Offline Trieste

  • Faerie Queen; Her Imperial Lubemajesty; Willing Victim
  • Dame
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2005
  • Location: In the middle of Happily Ever After with a dark Prince Charming.
  • Gender: Female
  • I am many things - dull is not one of them.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 4
Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2008, 07:52:20 PM »
This is the second time I've had to say it: I know that all of you have an extended vocabulary that consists of more than profanity. Use it, or I will start editing every single one of your posts and changing the profanity to something silly. You don't want that. I don't want that. So please don't make it happen.

Second: This thread is about prop 8 and Mormons. Not Obama. There are other threads to discuss Obama and what he may or may not have done for or against the country. This thread is about a proposition recently passed in California, and the reaction to it and who campaigned for it.

Keep it that way, please.

Offline Methos

Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2008, 08:08:02 PM »
I was simply pointing out Trieste that its simplistic to blame the Mormons when there is statistical evidence that other groups of people were just as heavily to blame.

Offline Trieste

  • Faerie Queen; Her Imperial Lubemajesty; Willing Victim
  • Dame
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2005
  • Location: In the middle of Happily Ever After with a dark Prince Charming.
  • Gender: Female
  • I am many things - dull is not one of them.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 4
Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2008, 08:14:59 PM »
Cool.

So do you think this boycott is unfair? Do you think the LDS had every right to campaign as they did? Do you think they should lose tax exempt status? Do you think the boycott will be effective? Why?

Etc.

Offline Methos

Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2008, 08:31:05 PM »
Well I think the LDS should lose non-profit status when all other charitable organization that advocates a political agenda loses their tax exempt status as well. There are countless environmental groups out there pushing a message that the world is ending, repent now. I don't see any reason why they should be allowed to push their religion with tax except status but the LDS shouldn't be allowed to agitate for their moral beliefs.

I personally find the Church of Latter Day Saints a bit silly. I mean really is anyone suposed to genuinely believe that a guy found Egyptian tablets made of gold in upstate New York and had to secretly translate them and not show them to anyone and couldn't replicate his translations? On the other hand, they are a religious group. If religions aren't allowed to preach a moral message, what exactly is left of them aside from their being a social gathering? Moral content is the only thing that makes a church gathering any more meaningful than a PTA meeting.

Do I think the boycott will be effective? No not particularly, how many gay people or hardcore liberals were going to Utah anyhow? Its not exactly Las Vegas or San Fransico.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 02:10:55 PM by Methos »

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2008, 10:01:58 PM »
I hate to be the Libertarian stick in the mud here folks but endorsing political matters of a moral nature that doesn't involve candidates is perfectly legal. For example in Florida the religious groups managed to get the supermajority needed for Amendment 2 and their preaching about it in the pulpits and other campaigns were legal. As long as no candidate is endorsed the can talk about issues and promote what they want. The Liberal and moderate churches did as well the other side was just more persuasive I guess.

So yes they had every right to do what they did.

Offline The OverlordTopic starter

Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2008, 10:53:21 PM »


So yes they had every right to do what they did.

Perhaps they did, but if the law is allowing morality dictated by religion, then clearly we've forgotten the intent of the founding fathers. I'd say it's time to remedy that.

Let's be clear on this; they want to dictate morality to others and now they've got a fight on their hands, and this is something the side for civil rights has every right to do. Once again, I am pointing this out as the defining and crucial difference between the liberal and conservative camps.

A liberal will want to give you a choice. A conservative will give you a choice too, as long as it's their choice.


Until the right learns its place, don't be overly concerned about al queda or terrorists half a world a way. That sort of media exposure is propaganda; Bin Laden hasn't struck US soil over 7 years...the religious right just loosed their latest attack on our freedoms this past week. The real battleground, and the real threat, is right here in our backyards.

Offline Huntress

Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2008, 10:55:46 PM »
it's such a hard thing...because if you say they can't legislate morality, then why do we imprison murderers? and yet.... >< it's ridiculously difficult. No black and white.

Offline Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2008, 11:01:07 PM »
it's such a hard thing...because if you say they can't legislate morality, then why do we imprison murderers? and yet.... >< it's ridiculously difficult. No black and white.

Except for the fact that you'd be hard pressed to find a religious group in the United States that says 'It's alright to kill,' while there are religious groups on both sides of issues like birth control, gay marriage, and so forth.

Offline Huntress

Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2008, 11:05:12 PM »
ackk...politics. i'm not a fan. i voted this year for the first time ever and i was like...ugh. Disappointed in both the candidates. i think one needs to make the country more moderate.

Offline Apple of Eris

Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2008, 11:16:32 PM »
...endorsing political matters of a moral nature that doesn't involve candidates is perfectly legal. For example in Florida the religious groups managed to get the supermajority needed for Amendment 2 and their preaching about it in the pulpits and other campaigns were legal. As long as no candidate is endorsed the can talk about issues and promote what they want....

Actually, the law as written allows a limited amount of lobbying to influence legislation; although the law states also states that "no substantial part" of a charities activies may be devoted to lobbying. Now an organization like the LDS which raises millions wah year can of course drop a million and still argue that this was 'not a substantial part'.

However, 501(c)(3) organizations - which all tax exempt churches are... are NOT permitted to overtly advocate for a position on a specific bill. They may raise money for research supporting their position, they may educate indivduals about an issue, but they may not openly advocate.

And yes, these rules have been upheld in both federal and state courts.

Offline The OverlordTopic starter

Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2008, 11:20:37 PM »
it's such a hard thing...because if you say they can't legislate morality, then why do we imprison murderers? and yet.... >< it's ridiculously difficult. No black and white.

Well there has to be a point. I believe it needs to be a societal consensus, as is often the case on things like murder, rape, theft, etc. All countries and societies settle on laws regarding these things, and you basically have to.


Murder certainly hurts people, in fact it kills people. There is a real and negative effect from crimes like murder. Even when it's sanctioned by authorities, such as killing the enemy in times of war, murder hardly ever sits well with us. This is an objective truth.


By contrast, gay marriage harms absolutely nothing, and arguing that it does is completely subjective. If we're going to enforce morality in law, then let's enforce it on real things, not fairy tales. The religionists that push this stuff are living in some sort of la la land, because it's surely not the same reality the rest of us share. An argument against gay marriage is not the result of a rational and open mind.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 12:04:24 AM by The Overlord »

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2008, 06:40:50 AM »
Actually, the law as written allows a limited amount of lobbying to influence legislation; although the law states also states that "no substantial part" of a charities activies may be devoted to lobbying. Now an organization like the LDS which raises millions wah year can of course drop a million and still argue that this was 'not a substantial part'.

However, 501(c)(3) organizations - which all tax exempt churches are... are NOT permitted to overtly advocate for a position on a specific bill. They may raise money for research supporting their position, they may educate indivduals about an issue, but they may not openly advocate.

And yes, these rules have been upheld in both federal and state courts.

I stand corrected.

Try to enforce that then it may have been illegal, but unless that law is enforced and I've never heard it used against a major religious orgainization such as the Roman Catholics, Baptists and other main denominations its a null and void law, one the is on paper only. Add to that most ministers would say that is their opinion stated and not that of their church proper in court its a good defense. Pastor Hagee had a sermon to "Vote the Bible" he started not endorsing it to any party but its clear he meant vote Republican just not outright said so. So there are ways around it.

I do defend the right to protest the Mormons however that is clearly protected speech as are boycotts.

As for all the arguements for or against gay marriage the fact is its been declared illegal in two large states, California and Florida (our amendment was even more broad) and you have to deal with it. Its a mute point no state court can overturn a Constitutional obligation just interprete it and they left in California nothing to interprete. The Federal Constitution could but as far as I can tell nothing overtly applies. You must have one man and one woman to be a legally married couple now. All the now protests against the state doing so are effectively useless. They can't say two people of the same sex cannot form a legal partnership (Civil Union) they did that in Florida so be grateful California left you that.