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Author Topic: It's Official!  (Read 4365 times)

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Offline MathimTopic starter

It's Official!
« on: November 05, 2008, 01:04:00 PM »
Obama has 349 electoral votes compared to McCain's 147. Can we start celebrating?

Offline Zakharra

Re: It's Official!
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2008, 01:13:54 PM »
 Celebrate all you want, it's still nearly 3 months before he is inaugurated. Until he is the President, he has no authority.

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Re: It's Official!
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2008, 01:15:10 PM »
Did North Carolina ever declare?  At 1:30 AM Eastern, they had 100% of the votes reporting in, but they were still uncolored.

Offline Rhapsody

Re: It's Official!
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2008, 04:27:07 PM »
I have never been so nervous about any election as I have been about this one. 

Last night, after Requiem and I watched an hour and a half of Threevening, we settled down in front of CNN to watch as the projections were called.  I fell asleep somewhere around the time the polls closed in the midwest in my nest of pillows in front of the couch, but it was already looking good, with a bit less than a dozen states already projected for Obama.  Requiem woke me up near 1am to finally go to bed.  The first question out of my sleep-addled and half-awake brain was, "Who won?"

This election meant more to me than the recent PM election we held here in Canada.  My husband is American.  My boys qualify for (and will get if it's the last thing I do) their dual Canadian/American citizenship.  My step-daughter lives in Alabama with my mother-, grandmother- and little brother-in-law.  Most of my closest friends are American.   One of them just bought a house and is in limbo as to whether or not he's going to lose it since the financial crisis.  Another of my friends is a member of the National Guard and spent a year in Afghanistan not long ago and may be deployed there again within the next couple of years.  I have spent years in the States, living in Florida and New Mexico, and visiting another half a dozen states in between.  Canada is my home, but I love America like a second home.

I'm liberal by nature, but I come from a country where "liberal" is the name of a major political party and not a potentially career-damning label.  I don't mind admitting that I lean towards certain aspects of socialism either; Canada has many socialist-inspired programs such as our national health care system, and our Canada Child Tax Benefit and Universal Child Care Benefit, which grants families money every month to help alleviate the costs of rearing children.  So when Obama suggests and offers programs or incentives that have some socialist aspects, they make sense to me.  If I could have voted in the election, if I had the right and the responsibility to vote in this election, my vote would have been for Obama.

And I don't vote.

I don't think he has all the answers, and I have a feeling that the hard part of being the 44th president of the United States is only now beginning.  It's a long hard road ahead, perhaps harder than the roads many other president-elects have ever had to walk.  But out of the two candidates, he was the calm, rational, presidential one in my eyes.  He held himself with humility, grace and dignity, and that's how a president should behave.

Given McCain's behaviour over the last few months of the campaign, I was surprised and pleased to listen to his concession speech early this morning on CNN.com.   McCain looked tired, weary and, as Requiem put it, "like someone had just kicked him in the gut"... yet his speech was full of as much dignity, grace and class as Obama has ever shown.  One particular line that impressed me and gave me a whole lot of hope: "Today, I was a candidate for the highest office in the country I love so much. And tonight, I remain her servant."  His promise to his supporters, that he will help Obama lead the United States to the best of his ability, I sincerely hope he holds in good faith.

I don't care if Obama is not inaugerated until the 20th of January and that he has no executive power as yet.  For Requiem and myself, and our two sons, we're already celebrating his presidency.

Offline The Overlord

Re: It's Official!
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2008, 11:17:47 PM »

Bush still holds office until January, but he has supposedly promised full cooperation with Obama as the administrations change hands.

Obama will not be president for two months, but he's already picking his cabinet, and the latest Russian stunt is aimed at him...not Bush.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081106/ap_on_re_eu/eu_russia_medvedev


Obama is already being compared to past generation figures like JFK, and just like Kennedy, looks like he's going to get his big test of wills from the Russians. I believe he's up to it, and it will be a great thing in the sense that proving himself in the arena against the Russians will go a long way toward making the case to the world that he's ready.

Offline Demoness

Re: It's Official!
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2008, 11:27:56 PM »
Did North Carolina ever declare?  At 1:30 AM Eastern, they had 100% of the votes reporting in, but they were still uncolored.

It was too close to call definitively; they need to go over the provisional ballots and such. We won't know for sure which way they'll go 'til a few weeks from now. Fortunately, it doesn't matter too much.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: It's Official!
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2008, 11:41:09 PM »
Bush still holds office until January, but he has supposedly promised full cooperation with Obama as the administrations change hands.

Obama will not be president for two months, but he's already picking his cabinet, and the latest Russian stunt is aimed at him...not Bush.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081106/ap_on_re_eu/eu_russia_medvedev


Obama is already being compared to past generation figures like JFK, and just like Kennedy, looks like he's going to get his big test of wills from the Russians. I believe he's up to it, and it will be a great thing in the sense that proving himself in the arena against the Russians will go a long way toward making the case to the world that he's ready.

I've got to admit that's pretty sharp on the Russian side. They're calling him out at being nothing more than a good talker. Like Kennedy. So we'll see if Obama can walk the walk in two months shall we. Also usually administration changes hands without too much fuss. Most presidents are happy to leave. Bush is probably one of them. 

Offline The Overlord

Re: It's Official!
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2008, 12:13:06 AM »

You know what's funny? In between McCain's concession speech and Obama's victory speech, they briefly broke away to the crowds massing outside the White House. I imagined George sitting in his office with the lights down and a drink in his hand, watching it all between partially drawn curtains.

So far as I've head, nothing turned ugly, but I'm guessing the Secret Service was extra-vigilant last night. I had this passing notion of the storming of the Bastille...


Only history tends to account the great ones for what they were; in their time they don't always get that recognition. That's why I can say we must be wary of this concept of predestination, but I think for many there is this sense that this is Obama's time, and he's the next big one in US presidents.

It's a hell of a rep to live up to, but I must admit I'm of a growing sense that this man is going to pass the tests given him, and help lead us in a new direction. Again, it's a risk going out on a limb like this, but I cannot shake this feeling that we're entering a new chapter in the great American Experiment. Let us hope we're all up to it.



« Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 12:17:12 AM by The Overlord »

Offline Inkidu

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Re: It's Official!
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2008, 12:26:19 AM »
You know what's funny? In between McCain's concession speech and Obama's victory speech, they briefly broke away to the crowds massing outside the White House. I imagined George sitting in his office with the lights down and a drink in his hand, watching it all between partially drawn curtains.

So far as I've head, nothing turned ugly, but I'm guessing the Secret Service was extra-vigilant last night. I had this passing notion of the storming of the Bastille...


Only history tends to account the great ones for what they were; in their time they don't always get that recognition. That's why I can say we must be wary of this concept of predestination, but I think for many there is this sense that this is Obama's time, and he's the next big one in US presidents.

It's a hell of a rep to live up to, but I must admit I'm of a growing sense that this man is going to pass the tests given him, and help lead us in a new direction. Again, it's a risk going out on a limb like this, but I cannot shake this feeling that we're entering a new chapter in the great American Experiment. Let us hope we're all up to it.




So why is it Bush's fault when there's shit times, and it's Obama comes in it's all of us?

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Re: It's Official!
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2008, 12:31:33 AM »
The end of that question didn't make sense...

Offline The Overlord

Re: It's Official!
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2008, 12:34:39 AM »
So why is it Bush's fault when there's shit times, and it's Obama comes in it's all of us?


I don't believe anyone believes, at least no one realistic, that you can blame the president alone for things when they turn sour. I surely don't.

That being said, as leader of the nation, the President is a figurehead. He will be revered in times when fortune turns our way, and he will be blamed when it all goes bad.

Make no mistake; I DO blame Bush for the fiasco so far of American policy in the 21st Century, but it's not just him. It's his cabinet, the cronies attached to it, the hard-liners in the military-industrial complex that are still living in yesteryear, and the choking greed of the petrochemical industry.

Of course one man is not responsible...this is all way too big for one man to have fucked up on his own.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: It's Official!
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2008, 12:43:37 AM »

I don't believe anyone believes, at least no one realistic, that you can blame the president alone for things when they turn sour. I surely don't.

That being said, as leader of the nation, the President is a figurehead. He will be revered in times when fortune turns our way, and he will be blamed when it all goes bad.

Make no mistake; I DO blame Bush for the fiasco so far of American policy in the 21st Century, but it's not just him. It's his cabinet, the cronies attached to it, the hard-liners in the military-industrial complex that are still living in yesteryear, and the choking greed of the petrochemical industry.

Of course one man is not responsible...this is all way too big for one man to have fucked up on his own.

Allow me to give you some rare information most aren't privy to. I have a brother who was an admiral's aide in the navy. He saw a lot of documents cross high up desks. The whole of the problems from 9/11 to the Iraqi war can be traced back to the Clinton administration. Clinton replaced all our spies with payed informants. Now the problem with paid informants is that they'll tell you whatever you want to hear. So we went in with bad information and it snowballed after that. I think the only real mistake Bush made was sticking through it. Once we had Saddam we should have pulled the plug on the operation, but the rest of the world tends not to like that approach especially from America.

So all I'm saying is that in the broader scope of history. It's not all the Bush Administration's fault. This had been building for years, and he just ended up in the wrong place at the wrong time. Just think of what his presidency would've been if 9/11 never happened. It would have been really unnoticed when it rains it pours. I suppose. I think it's going to take more than Obama even for eight years, To fix the problems of America.

Sorry to get on my historical podium. I try to think big picture.

Offline The Overlord

Re: It's Official!
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2008, 01:05:50 AM »
I try to think big picture.

So do I.


Much of what we face has indeed been building for decades now; there is no denying that. Where the current administration fails is that we're seeing high government at its absolute most gluttonous and ravenous worst, and I believe Bush's abysmal approval record reflects public realization of this.

I am under no illusions about Clinton. He was definitely a popular president, not a great president; there is a marked difference here. I believe he's responsible for good and ill.


Bush's administration most certainly did not bake the entire cake, but they sure as hell put the icing on it with some to spare.

Offline Vekseid

Re: It's Official!
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2008, 01:20:25 AM »
I've got to admit that's pretty sharp on the Russian side. They're calling him out at being nothing more than a good talker. Like Kennedy. So we'll see if Obama can walk the walk in two months shall we. Also usually administration changes hands without too much fuss. Most presidents are happy to leave. Bush is probably one of them. 

On the contrary, it's actually pretty stupid. Obama can remove himself from his less than stellar position on missile defense without being labeled a flip flopper.

The thing is, I don't think people take the chances of a major war seriously, any longer. Because for at least the next twenty years and probably the next century, any conflict which actually energizes the American public is a conflict America is going to rather decisively win.

Allow me to give you some rare information most aren't privy to. I have a brother who was an admiral's aide in the navy. He saw a lot of documents cross high up desks. The whole of the problems from 9/11 to the Iraqi war can be traced back to the Clinton administration. Clinton replaced all our spies with payed informants. Now the problem with paid informants is that they'll tell you whatever you want to hear. So we went in with bad information and it snowballed after that. I think the only real mistake Bush made was sticking through it. Once we had Saddam we should have pulled the plug on the operation, but the rest of the world tends not to like that approach especially from America.

Pardon if I don't trust your source. "Replaced all spies with paid informants." What the hell does that mean? Spies are paid, idealogical, or blackmailed.

Some of the 'evidence' that was put forth for the war effort was the result of torture, the acceptance of which was entirely a Bush problem.

There's more to it than this, especially in the strategic sense, but even if that was intentional, history is not going to judge Bush kindly even after all facts are known.

Offline The Overlord

Re: It's Official!
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2008, 02:15:13 AM »


Pardon if I don't trust your source.

Actually, having been an aide to an admiral, would this admission not be treasonous, at the very least a serious breach of security?

To be blunt, I've worked with enough would-be scammers and players over the years to be wary when anyone says they've got an inside informant.

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Re: It's Official!
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2008, 06:52:15 AM »
Allow me to give you some rare information most aren't privy to. I have a brother who was an admiral's aide in the navy. He saw a lot of documents cross high up desks. The whole of the problems from 9/11 to the Iraqi war can be traced back to the Clinton administration. Clinton replaced all our spies with payed informants. Now the problem with paid informants is that they'll tell you whatever you want to hear. So we went in with bad information and it snowballed after that. I think the only real mistake Bush made was sticking through it. Once we had Saddam we should have pulled the plug on the operation, but the rest of the world tends not to like that approach especially from America.

So all I'm saying is that in the broader scope of history. It's not all the Bush Administration's fault. This had been building for years, and he just ended up in the wrong place at the wrong time. Just think of what his presidency would've been if 9/11 never happened. It would have been really unnoticed when it rains it pours. I suppose. I think it's going to take more than Obama even for eight years, To fix the problems of America.

Sorry to get on my historical podium. I try to think big picture.

Actually sorry to rain on your parade.   But your singular snipe at Clinton with a partial facts is quite amusing.   The blame for replacing spies with paid informants, can be traced with equal blame to the Republican congress.   And yes, Clinton is equally to blame.   But please do not give us the partial truths. 



Back on topic,  President elect Barack Obama,  has the potential to be a great president.    He is faced with enormous problems that need to be unraveled.   

The economy being the major one.  His true strength in this will be to reign in his own party.   To keep them from going to far in the other direction.  It is a balancing act, oversights and regulations.  None at all, and we have the current results.  Too much and we have the recession of the 70's.   A fine line has to be managed and maintained.   So government does not get in the way. 

So in truth, I truly believe that Barack would have been better served if he had a republican controlled congress to deal with.   His strength of character so unique.  Has the potential to bring out the best in things.   Now that potential is limited to making sure his own party does not get carried away.   Like the republicans did in the first six years of George's time in office. 

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Re: It's Official!
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2008, 07:10:06 AM »
On the contrary, it's actually pretty stupid. Obama can remove himself from his less than stellar position on missile defense without being labeled a flip flopper.

The thing is, I don't think people take the chances of a major war seriously, any longer. Because for at least the next twenty years and probably the next century, any conflict which actually energizes the American public is a conflict America is going to rather decisively win.

Pardon if I don't trust your source. "Replaced all spies with paid informants." What the hell does that mean? Spies are paid, idealogical, or blackmailed.

Some of the 'evidence' that was put forth for the war effort was the result of torture, the acceptance of which was entirely a Bush problem.

There's more to it than this, especially in the strategic sense, but even if that was intentional, history is not going to judge Bush kindly even after all facts are known.
I will explain the difference between a spy and a paid informant then. A spy is usually a person trained by the home government to be placed in a foreign government. They are trained to be loyal and report information unbiasedly. A paid informant is a person usually of the foreign government paid to report. Where as a spy is loyal a paid informant will tell you whatever you want to here as long as he gets paid.

The strategic sense? Information is the strategic sense. Knowing is half the battle logistical deployment. America doesn't have trouble deploying so that leaves the other half. Yes the republican congress didn't help but the president is not called the commander in chief for nothing.
The point I'm making is it's not entirely Bush's fault like most people think. Bad information is worse than no information. Now I'm not saying Bush is entirely without blame. He dropped the ball on a lot of things. The torture thing being one of them. However, I don't think Obama would have even handled it well if he'd been handed it. 

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Re: It's Official!
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2008, 08:28:08 AM »
So all I'm saying is that in the broader scope of history. It's not all the Bush Administration's fault. This had been building for years, and he just ended up in the wrong place at the wrong time. Just think of what his presidency would've been if 9/11 never happened. It would have been really unnoticed when it rains it pours. I suppose. I think it's going to take more than Obama even for eight years, To fix the problems of America.

Personally, I'd start the seeds for the Gulf conflict alone back in the Reagan era, if not Carter.  The Bushes (both Sr. and Jr.) built on the foreign policy set forth in that age - but of course, everyone remembers Reagan for 'Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!'

Similarly, Hoover wasn't 'responsible' for the Great Depression, even if it is the one thing that his presidency will be remembered for.  You're right that it will probably take more than any one administration to fix things, but I think the public has declared definitively that they want a change.  Not just need one - we've needed one for years.

Offline Vekseid

Re: It's Official!
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2008, 09:52:19 AM »
I will explain the difference between a spy and a paid informant then. A spy is usually a person trained by the home government to be placed in a foreign government. They are trained to be loyal and report information unbiasedly. A paid informant is a person usually of the foreign government paid to report. Where as a spy is loyal a paid informant will tell you whatever you want to here as long as he gets paid.

Then you're lying. Nice to know.

Offline MathimTopic starter

Re: It's Official!
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2008, 12:08:34 PM »
Wow, this got off track.

The more McCain bashed Obama near the end there, the less and less he seemed like a competent human being, let alone the leader of the free world and commander in chief of the armed forces. Thank our lucky stars at least a level-headed person got in there instead. Not saying Obama's perfect but definitely the better choice of the two, at least if everyone subscribes to the notion that 'the good of the many outweighs the good of the few'.

Offline CassandraNova

Re: It's Official!
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2008, 03:41:01 PM »
It was too close to call definitively; they need to go over the provisional ballots and such. We won't know for sure which way they'll go 'til a few weeks from now. Fortunately, it doesn't matter too much.

As of today, North Carolina has been called for Obama.

It's academic at this point how North Carolina and Missouri voted.  All it makes a difference in is answering the question by how much did Obama beat McCain.

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Re: It's Official!
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2008, 04:15:36 PM »
As of today, North Carolina has been called for Obama.

It's academic at this point how North Carolina and Missouri voted.  All it makes a difference in is answering the question by how much did Obama beat McCain.

Actually, it was more an issue that I'd never seen a vote that close before - it was just driving me nuts!   ;D

Offline CassandraNova

Re: It's Official!
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2008, 04:27:39 PM »
You obviously didn't vote in the 2000 election.

Offline MathimTopic starter

Re: It's Official!
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2008, 04:33:53 PM »
But Obama won by a huge margin, didn't he? Unless I misunderstood how voting works...349 electoral votes compared to 147, at least according to Yahoo a couple days ago...

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Re: It's Official!
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2008, 04:37:29 PM »
Yes, it was all over for McCain by about 11 PM Eastern.