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Author Topic: Zombie apocalypse now?  (Read 4028 times)

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Online Inkidu

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Re: Zombie apocalypse now?
« Reply #75 on: February 19, 2015, 07:04:58 AM »
Is it wrong that I find an upside to an apocalypse or horrible disaster being that a lot of stupid people will die in the process?
A zombie apocalypse would be more like the Black Death. It's going to kill a lot of people and it isn't going to care who. A lot kids and babies are going to die, so are the old, the young, the smart, the stupid, the poor, and the rich.

Unlike what most media tries to portray this isn't a scenario where the virtuous and moral will survive because they're simply being virtuous and moral. (I'm not advocating going all dog-eat-dog, if we don't come through something like that with our humanity then what's the point?)

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Re: Zombie apocalypse now?
« Reply #76 on: February 19, 2015, 07:22:52 AM »
If I were to look over the list of all the blindingly intelligent people I've known in my life, and mentally rank them against the rednecks I knew in Ohio (and I use this term affectionately in this case) and the mug shots I see on the police blotters, I'd have to say that the rednecks and mug shots would have better odds.  Having the ability to shoot a living thing without hesitation is going to be more important to survival than advanced physics.   LARPers and re-enactors would be another 'class' that I'd give the nod to - while not necessarily blindingly intelligent, they have a flexibility of thinking, a knowledge of tactics, and possible access to weaponry.  (Especially that WWII group down near Columbus.)

Medical personnel could either be an asset (keeping the living alive) or a hindrance (if a non-fatal bite-transmission still results in zombification), assuming that they were able to avoid getting infected during the initial 'What are we dealing with here' stage of the outbreak.

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Re: Zombie apocalypse now?
« Reply #77 on: February 19, 2015, 07:30:04 AM »
If I were to look over the list of all the blindingly intelligent people I've known in my life, and mentally rank them against the rednecks I knew in Ohio (and I use this term affectionately in this case) and the mug shots I see on the police blotters, I'd have to say that the rednecks and mug shots would have better odds.  Having the ability to shoot a living thing without hesitation is going to be more important to survival than advanced physics.   LARPers and re-enactors would be another 'class' that I'd give the nod to - while not necessarily blindingly intelligent, they have a flexibility of thinking, a knowledge of tactics, and possible access to weaponry.  (Especially that WWII group down near Columbus.)

Medical personnel could either be an asset (keeping the living alive) or a hindrance (if a non-fatal bite-transmission still results in zombification), assuming that they were able to avoid getting infected during the initial 'What are we dealing with here' stage of the outbreak.

This is why I love being in the middle ground. I love guns, have them in my home but also enjoy educating myself. *Begins planning to reconquer the world after the zombie uprising.*

Offline Mathim

Re: Zombie apocalypse now?
« Reply #78 on: February 19, 2015, 07:59:17 AM »
There are a lot of things you never really hear about during these kinds of movies that I feel should be addressed. For example, if most of humanity is wiped out and the survivors can't help but leave things unattended due to geography or lack of ability, then why does nobody ever say anything about, "Gee, we're squatting within X miles of a nuclear power plant that's got to have been abandoned at this stage. Shouldn't we maybe get Y miles away from it since that could represent a potentially worse hazard than the zombies?" Little things like that just bug me. Even World War Z had a nuclear sub, but I'd have preferred at least one anecdote about someone taking it upon themselves (and a group of people capable of maintaining such a place) to break through a wall of zombies, get back inside the reactor, seal themselves in, stabilize it and defend it until backup could arrive.

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Re: Zombie apocalypse now?
« Reply #79 on: February 19, 2015, 08:06:10 AM »
There are a lot of things you never really hear about during these kinds of movies that I feel should be addressed. For example, if most of humanity is wiped out and the survivors can't help but leave things unattended due to geography or lack of ability, then why does nobody ever say anything about, "Gee, we're squatting within X miles of a nuclear power plant that's got to have been abandoned at this stage. Shouldn't we maybe get Y miles away from it since that could represent a potentially worse hazard than the zombies?" Little things like that just bug me. Even World War Z had a nuclear sub, but I'd have preferred at least one anecdote about someone taking it upon themselves (and a group of people capable of maintaining such a place) to break through a wall of zombies, get back inside the reactor, seal themselves in, stabilize it and defend it until backup could arrive.

That was actually brought up in a comic book I recently read called "The Last Zombie" Where 2 military APCs and some soldiers are trying to get a scientist to an Undergroudn bunker/lab in DC to work on a vaccine.

In one of the issues they are trying to avoid a massive wildfire but are forced to go through it when their only way around it is through a radiated area caused by a reactor which went critical.

Still your idea...sounds genius!

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Re: Zombie apocalypse now?
« Reply #80 on: February 19, 2015, 10:06:45 AM »
I'm also not a proponent of Brook's bolt-action, rimfire love. Sure it's a good thing for the individual accuracy, but I think proper use of the M16 would provide more tactical flexibility if you had to move between zombie and human.

Also, the M16 is quite ubiquitous and it would have been smarter to equip America with those in WWZ then make a whole new firearm.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Zombie apocalypse now?
« Reply #81 on: February 19, 2015, 11:53:15 AM »
There are a lot of things you never really hear about during these kinds of movies that I feel should be addressed. For example, if most of humanity is wiped out and the survivors can't help but leave things unattended due to geography or lack of ability, then why does nobody ever say anything about, "Gee, we're squatting within X miles of a nuclear power plant that's got to have been abandoned at this stage. Shouldn't we maybe get Y miles away from it since that could represent a potentially worse hazard than the zombies?" Little things like that just bug me. Even World War Z had a nuclear sub, but I'd have preferred at least one anecdote about someone taking it upon themselves (and a group of people capable of maintaining such a place) to break through a wall of zombies, get back inside the reactor, seal themselves in, stabilize it and defend it until backup could arrive.

Frankly, most nuclear power plants probably won't be a huge danger at first, because they are so heavily automated in terms of safety procedures. Their emergency shutdown systems can't actually run out of power, since they make it, so in the instance of something going wrong, the whole thing will probably scram itself. Lead shielding won't last forever and cooling pools will eventually evaporate, so a nuclear plant will eventually irradiate itself heavily, but danger to the surrounding area would be purely a concern of slow contamination over time, not any sort of explosion. Fukushima, not Chernobyl. Absolutely not a place you want to be going into voluntarily, but leaving it to fester isn't going to cause some sort of catastrophic disaster.

From another site:
Quote
Look, zombie movies are genre stuff. Everything happens a certain way, because that's how things are "supposed" to go. It's no more accurate than proposing humans can shoot their way out of alien encounters because that's how every alien movie goes. We all understand what zombies are supposed to look like. A shambling hoard of groaning dead covered in rags coming after the wildly outnumbered living. That doesn't mean it is realistic.

Hell, what's with the rags, even? Mostly, we bury our dead in suits and such. In any scenario where only the recently dead arise, the undead horde should look pretty stylish.

Night Of The Fashionable Dead, coming soon to theaters.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 01:54:45 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline Mathim

Re: Zombie apocalypse now?
« Reply #82 on: February 19, 2015, 02:54:49 PM »
Frankly, most nuclear power plants probably won't be a huge danger at first, because they are so heavily automated in terms of safety procedures. Their emergency shutdown systems can't actually run out of power, since they make it, so in the instance of something going wrong, the whole thing will probably scram itself. Lead shielding won't last forever and cooling pools will eventually evaporate, so a nuclear plant will eventually irradiate itself heavily, but danger to the surrounding area would be purely a concern of slow contamination over time, not any sort of explosion. Fukushima, not Chernobyl. Absolutely not a place you want to be going into voluntarily, but leaving it to fester isn't going to cause some sort of catastrophic disaster.

From another site:
Night Of The Fashionable Dead, coming soon to theaters.

That's just it, though, contamination. I wasn't implying explosions but if a plant was anywhere near a source of running water, it could carry radiation to long distances. That's the danger I feel is never addressed.

And I think Zombieland covered the various dressings of the undead pretty well. A stripper with those little things covering just her nipples and a bikini bottom becoming a zombie was a pretty good reason for one not to be wearing her Sunday best.

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Re: Zombie apocalypse now?
« Reply #83 on: February 19, 2015, 04:13:31 PM »
Plenty of nuke power plants are near running water sources, and they're as safe as any other because the water that goes out is clean. If the plant shuts down it gets scrammed just like Glyph said and there's no runoff because--again--like Glyph said the water is evaporated off.

Offline Mathim

Re: Zombie apocalypse now?
« Reply #84 on: February 19, 2015, 06:10:15 PM »
Plenty of nuke power plants are near running water sources, and they're as safe as any other because the water that goes out is clean. If the plant shuts down it gets scrammed just like Glyph said and there's no runoff because--again--like Glyph said the water is evaporated off.

So if the coolant stuff runs out and the power control rods and such overheat, the plants are just automatically sealed to prevent fallout stuff from getting out? Just trying to see how this works. It didn't seem to be so clean-cut with that earthquake in Japan that knocked one out.

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Re: Zombie apocalypse now?
« Reply #85 on: February 19, 2015, 06:17:13 PM »
So if the coolant stuff runs out and the power control rods and such overheat, the plants are just automatically sealed to prevent fallout stuff from getting out? Just trying to see how this works. It didn't seem to be so clean-cut with that earthquake in Japan that knocked one out.G
Well, yeah, if the earth splits the dang thing in half, or if a meteor hits it it's going to crack wide open, but just up and not being run anymore? Not that big a deal. Though you shouldn't go or live anywhere near them, because well they usually provide no benefit in a post-societal future of most types.

http://www.cracked.com/article_18683_7-scientific-reasons-zombie-outbreak-would-fail-quickly_p2.html?wa_user1=6&wa_user2=Science&wa_user3=article&wa_user4=recommended

Pretty much why a zombie plague will never happen.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 08:42:12 PM by Inkidu »

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Zombie apocalypse now?
« Reply #86 on: February 19, 2015, 10:32:42 PM »
So if the coolant stuff runs out and the power control rods and such overheat, the plants are just automatically sealed to prevent fallout stuff from getting out? Just trying to see how this works. It didn't seem to be so clean-cut with that earthquake in Japan that knocked one out.

More that the reactor is shut down/sealed first, as part of the scram. The coolant and control rods won't last forever, and the core will eventually melt, but every (Western) core generator is also inside multiple layers of containment, something extremely heat-resistant and radiation-absorbent (apparently metal and concrete for the most part). Modern reactors are designed to withstand outright full meltdowns as a worst-case scenario, as far as 'not releasing radioactive material' goes. A big part of Fukushima was the tsunami-caused earthquake that damaged the backup systems responsible for automatically scramming the system, and simultaneously shattered/breached the containment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_reactor_safety_systems#Containment_systems

So what you get, once the coolant is gone, is a molten puddle of uranium inside a giant concrete/metal box. Enough radiation will escape to make, say, living in the reactor building a bad plan, but barring an earthquake or similar-scale natural disaster and/or deliberate damage to the containment, its environmental effects will be small.

Offline Mathim

Re: Zombie apocalypse now?
« Reply #87 on: February 20, 2015, 08:05:21 AM »
I see. So unless they cheap out on the construction of said safety features then it's unlikely anything will get through the cracks or a stuck door or something. It's hard to have faith that such will actually work out well considering I have no faith that mankind can actually successfully repel a zombie outbreak.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Zombie apocalypse now?
« Reply #88 on: February 20, 2015, 11:53:54 AM »
Zombie are very bad at punching through concrete, and the whole point of the automatic safeties, barring catastrophic damage, is that they trigger automatically, so the ability or failure of humans to repel the zombies is immaterial.

Why the fixation on nuclear power, though? They have so much safety and redundancy specifically because they can be so dangerous. There are plenty of things that are slightly less dangerous and much less safe, that would cause terrible environmental damage too. Chemical refineries, just to think of one - all sorts of toxic stuff that could soak into the soil or leak into the waterways and devastate wildlife, with far flimsier contamination blocks. Gas or coal-fired plants....uncontrolled coal fires are scary, look up the town of Centralia PA if you don't believe me. Heck, actual nuclear weapons; they're subject to the same sort of contamination protections as civilian power sources, but with much higher odds of intentionally deploying them at the end in some futile effort to stop the hordes. Biological laboratories researching diseases, whose protections are extremely stringent and next to unbreakable when the biggest thing trying to break them needs a microscope to be seen, not so much when shambling corpses are banging on the windows.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 11:54:56 AM by TheGlyphstone »

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Re: Zombie apocalypse now?
« Reply #89 on: February 20, 2015, 12:22:10 PM »
Gas or coal-fired plants....uncontrolled coal fires are scary, look up the town of Centralia PA if you don't believe me.

Or, for a quick mental image, realize that Centralia, PA is listed as one of the inspirations for Silent Hill.

Offline Mathim

Re: Zombie apocalypse now?
« Reply #90 on: February 20, 2015, 06:09:55 PM »
Zombie are very bad at punching through concrete, and the whole point of the automatic safeties, barring catastrophic damage, is that they trigger automatically, so the ability or failure of humans to repel the zombies is immaterial.

Why the fixation on nuclear power, though? They have so much safety and redundancy specifically because they can be so dangerous. There are plenty of things that are slightly less dangerous and much less safe, that would cause terrible environmental damage too. Chemical refineries, just to think of one - all sorts of toxic stuff that could soak into the soil or leak into the waterways and devastate wildlife, with far flimsier contamination blocks. Gas or coal-fired plants....uncontrolled coal fires are scary, look up the town of Centralia PA if you don't believe me. Heck, actual nuclear weapons; they're subject to the same sort of contamination protections as civilian power sources, but with much higher odds of intentionally deploying them at the end in some futile effort to stop the hordes. Biological laboratories researching diseases, whose protections are extremely stringent and next to unbreakable when the biggest thing trying to break them needs a microscope to be seen, not so much when shambling corpses are banging on the windows.

The answer to why I'm fixating on it is what I already said before: Nobody ever seems to touch on that in zombie apocalypses. No one ever says, "Hey, do you think maybe we should migrate a few furlongs further away from that abandoned power plant just in case something cracks open in there and releases Chernobyl juice all over our front porches?" I understand there have to be many safety levels but as Japan has proven, it's not nearly foolproof enough and without humans to maintain and supervise thing, long-term, if civilization does end up rebuilding, it's not a good thing to ignore.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Zombie apocalypse now?
« Reply #91 on: February 20, 2015, 06:20:43 PM »
The answer is probably because no one really thinks about it, and/or because zombie apocalypse stories tend to focus on the 'now' instead of the 'later'; concerns about cleaning/repairing a run-down nuclear plant are much lower on the typical survivor's priority list than 'where will I find food tomorrow' and 'where can I sleep tonight without being eaten by zombies' and 'OH GOD THAT ZOMBIE IS TRYING TO BITE ME KILL IT'. But if you want to realistically explore that sort of threat, you're better off using a chemical refinery or something for an immediate we-don't-want-to-camp-here situation. Safely contained nuclear plants just aren't as dangerous to their surrounding as you want them to be unless severe physical damage on the level of an earthquake occurs. Once civilization has stabilized and rebuilt, old 'hot' nuclear plants could be looked at, but that requires civilization to be rebuilt first, since cleaning up a nuclear site, even a contained one, is a very resource-intensive task.

Incidentally, the exclusion zone for Chernobyl itself is a 30km radius, in three increasing bands of radioactive contamination, and you literally cannot have a nuclear reactor go more catastrophically wrong than Chernobyl did (it had no containment at all). So the safe distance depends on how badly your containment is breached, but either way less than a mile isn't likely to be appreciably different in healthiness.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 06:30:32 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline Mathim

Re: Zombie apocalypse now?
« Reply #92 on: February 21, 2015, 04:26:39 PM »
So unless someone blows open the walls in such a place trying to defend themselves against a horde of zombies in the unlikely event they're caught in that particular location with no backup and only explosive weaponry available, then barring a natural disaster, that's a moot point. Okay, good to know. But you can't count on crazy not playing a factor. Even in World War Z, there were incidents of people sabotaging things in an attempt to usher in the full apocalypse. Someone could elect to go the nuclear route and throw a big boom down a power plant chimney.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Zombie apocalypse now?
« Reply #93 on: February 21, 2015, 04:28:54 PM »
Well sure, crazy is always an option, and you can build great stories out of crazy.

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Re: Zombie apocalypse now?
« Reply #94 on: February 21, 2015, 04:29:26 PM »
So unless someone blows open the walls in such a place trying to defend themselves against a horde of zombies in the unlikely event they're caught in that particular location with no backup and only explosive weaponry available, then barring a natural disaster, that's a moot point. Okay, good to know. But you can't count on crazy not playing a factor. Even in World War Z, there were incidents of people sabotaging things in an attempt to usher in the full apocalypse. Someone could elect to go the nuclear route and throw a big boom down a power plant chimney.

I find it sad that certain terrorist groups would likely try to do that if zombies ever rose up.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Zombie apocalypse now?
« Reply #95 on: February 21, 2015, 04:37:55 PM »
Frankly, at that point most terrorist groups are probably going to have their own problems to deal with. Sure, they might not have to deal with as much security, but now they also have to deal with zombies. Lots of things closer to home for most of them to go apocalyptic on.

Offline Mathim

Re: Zombie apocalypse now?
« Reply #96 on: February 21, 2015, 08:54:00 PM »
Frankly, at that point most terrorist groups are probably going to have their own problems to deal with. Sure, they might not have to deal with as much security, but now they also have to deal with zombies. Lots of things closer to home for most of them to go apocalyptic on.

Not if they believe the zombies are agents of whatever twisted vision of deity they worship. Frankly it would be surprising not to see them going to work on this and saying, "Look, undead friends, we're helping you to destroy this world!" I mean, I don't know if I'd consider being devoured by a zombie a martyr's death, so they'd have to be kind of creative to make sure it happened that way.

I heard there was an Anthropology of Zombies class being taught at some university somewhere. Sounds like a hoot but I can't imagine it being part of any decent general education requirement. Of course there's also a class somewhere that revolves around the Marvel Cinematic Universe so who knows, maybe times are changing.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Zombie apocalypse now?
« Reply #97 on: February 21, 2015, 09:22:00 PM »
Even if they can justify it, though, the first thing that'll go down is international travel. So even if they want to go wreak havoc somewhere else, they're pretty much limited by necessity to their immediate area, and their immediate resources-at-hand. They might certainly try, but at that point it'll be a drop in the water or at best a 'make the bad situation worse'.

Offline Mathim

Re: Zombie apocalypse now?
« Reply #98 on: February 21, 2015, 09:29:06 PM »
Well if security is lax at that point and hijacking is kind of their forte, I don't think that'll stop them.

Speaking of which, has anyone seen Flight of the Living Dead? It's almost a half-serious zombie movie about an outbreak on a commercial flight. It's almost like that plane scene in World War Z but stretched into an entire movie (ironically still better in every way than World War Z the movie).
« Last Edit: February 21, 2015, 09:30:26 PM by Mathim »

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Re: Zombie apocalypse now?
« Reply #99 on: February 21, 2015, 09:29:54 PM »
I think the world by in large is far too genre savvy to fall prey to a zombie apocalypse.

That's sort of why I have a hard time taking the Walking Dead (comic or show). Is that it exists in a universe where not a damn soul has seen Night of the Living Dead 1969. :P

Also, everyone in the Brooksverse tends to take a daily stupid pill as well. :P