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Author Topic: What Are Your Impressions of Atheism  (Read 4596 times)

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Online Oniya

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Re: What Are Your Impressions of Atheism
« Reply #100 on: July 31, 2014, 08:31:41 PM »
Uhm... That's some generalizing right there. Am I pompous? I leave all of this out of my life. I just found myself as Agnostic because it makes the most logical sense and I have an answer when questioned about my stance.

And it'd be better if you didn't use words like "right" and "wrong" when talking about this. It's impossible to know any fact concerning Religion, hence, it's impossible to know who's right and who's wrong. Actually, everyone is wrong until proven right, and no one can prove anything.

As was stated earlier, we'll only know for sure when we die - and at that point, it's pretty much too late to say anything at all.  (Although Bess and Harry Houdini tried really hard.)

Offline Sethala

Re: What Are Your Impressions of Atheism
« Reply #101 on: July 31, 2014, 10:52:10 PM »
Uhm... That's some generalizing right there. Am I pompous? I leave all of this out of my life. I just found myself as Agnostic because it makes the most logical sense and I have an answer when questioned about my stance.

And it'd be better if you didn't use words like "right" and "wrong" when talking about this. It's impossible to know any fact concerning Religion, hence, it's impossible to know who's right and who's wrong. Actually, everyone is wrong until proven right, and no one can prove anything.

I know I'm repeating myself, but if you're talking about "wrong until proven right", that still makes the null hypothesis the "right" choice until something else is proven right.

That being said, I have no problem with someone insisting that the null hypothesis should be called "agnosticism" instead of "atheism".  I still think there's a difference between what's commonly thought of as agnostic and the atheist null hypothesis (just as there's a difference between the null hypothesis and complete disbelief in a deity), but it's all a matter of labels, and as long as you don't try to confuse the labels in order to pull up an equivocation fallacy, I'm fine just going with someone else's definitions of the labels for a discussion.

Offline BeeJayTopic starter

Re: What Are Your Impressions of Atheism
« Reply #102 on: August 01, 2014, 12:04:00 AM »
Uhm... That's some generalizing right there. Am I pompous? I leave all of this out of my life. I just found myself as Agnostic because it makes the most logical sense and I have an answer when questioned about my stance.

And it'd be better if you didn't use words like "right" and "wrong" when talking about this. It's impossible to know any fact concerning Religion, hence, it's impossible to know who's right and who's wrong. Actually, everyone is wrong until proven right, and no one can prove anything.

You're right. I was doing some generalizing there. My intention was to go into an emotional rant to illustrate my point. I should have been more clear, and I apologize.

That said, I disagree with your claim that we can't know what is right or wrong about religion. I know, for instance, that no religion has presented sufficient proof for their claims to knowledge. I also know that religion has been a force for evil in the world. I would posit that, even if we can't know absolutely, we can come to the strong conclusion that the god claim is likely false. That would be a conclusion drawn from a preponderance of evidence, and though it isn't true knowledge, it is a solid position until new evidence presents itself. To be intellectually honest, we all have to say we don't 'know', but we can still draw a conclusion.

As far as 'know', we should take the null position, as Sethala says. As far as 'believe', we can draw further conclusions.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2014, 12:05:19 AM by BeeJay »

Offline Ironwolf85

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Re: What Are Your Impressions of Atheism
« Reply #103 on: August 01, 2014, 12:06:36 AM »
Here's the problem: None of this is justification for blanket condemnation of atheists, unless you're claiming to be a vandal. (As an aside, the same five-minute Google that found those also found this . Perhaps you'd like to retract your "inaction" claim?)
Um. Just a thought. Is it really the atheists causing the problem here, or the people who are putting up a blatantly illegal display?

I don't hate or even dislike athiests.

I'm just infuriated that no action was taken by any party after the smashing of the mangers. Only the local churches seemed to be mad about it. Both a Christmas display that the local Knights of Columbus bid, and won,  the rental for. As well as a few displays on church property were damaged.
(Basically anyone can bid to put a holiday display in a little area set aside in the park. Any group can apply and bid, be it red cross, a charity group, a church, an advocate group, private bidders, ect. I was in charge of handling the paper work. we had a jewish group win last year, this year Knights of Columbus won. Year before that it was freaking Coke for some reason.)
I feel like if someone had smashed a menorah made of ice, or slapped graffiti across a atheist banner the year they won, there would have been much more of a fuss.

The second bit was that after a presentation a prof took me aside and advised me not to wear a cross when speaking on scientific matters. Because it would help my image...

It's left a bad taste in my mouth.

As a whole I find loudly vocal atheists sound like a more boring version a Missionary and intellectually condescending, and the nutters I just can't stand, but that's common for every group I meet. The majority who are just "Meh I don't believe." and don't cram my face in it. I get along just fine with.

Oh can we all please agree to stop paying attention to those stupid battles over Christmas. I mean all sides, everyone who reads this Christian, Jew, Muslim, Athiests, neo-pagans and everyone else. Let's stop it please, it only makes the stupid act stupider around that time of year.

Offline Sabby

Re: What Are Your Impressions of Atheism
« Reply #104 on: August 01, 2014, 12:21:58 AM »
The second bit was that after a presentation a prof took me aside and advised me not to wear a cross when speaking on scientific matters. Because it would help my image...

Uh... I think he was trying to help you. I wouldn't have said that, and I personally feel that was kind of a major case of foot in mouth, but doesn't sound to me like he was trying to exclude you, just make you aware of your surroundings.

Once again, not the approach I would take, and it sucks he even felt the need to do that, but I would hardly call this justification for sweeping generalizations of Atheists.

Offline BeeJayTopic starter

Re: What Are Your Impressions of Atheism
« Reply #105 on: August 01, 2014, 12:33:56 AM »
I'm sorry you have had bad experience with atheists, but it's been pointed out that atheists aren't the only vandals. I am also sorry that the entire atheist community didn't apologize for what some vandals did. Of course, I doubt any reputable atheists were involved in the act, just like I'd doubt if any reputable theists would vandalize an atheist billboard.

So far, the only insults fired at any group here have been those aimed at atheists. No one here has been condescending here. No one has crammed anything anywhere. I will go as far as saying that atheists are insulted and maligned a great deal more than Christians are, mainly because Christians make up a great deal of the population and their holy book condones the verbal and physical assault of non-believers. Systemically more bigoted, I say.

I'm not sure what you're asking about in your last line. What are you asking us to stop doing?

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Re: What Are Your Impressions of Atheism
« Reply #106 on: August 01, 2014, 12:36:28 AM »
Stop turning a time of year that is supposed to be about family, togetherness, and giving into a time of year focused on hostility, divisiveness and acquisition.

Offline Sabby

Re: What Are Your Impressions of Atheism
« Reply #107 on: August 01, 2014, 12:47:23 AM »
Oh can we all please agree to stop paying attention to those stupid battles over Christmas. I mean all sides, everyone who reads this Christian, Jew, Muslim, Athiests, neo-pagans and everyone else. Let's stop it please, it only makes the stupid act stupider around that time of year.

I can't believe I missed this.

Ironwolf, are you familiar with what occurred in Oklahoma earlier this year? A Christian display was approved inside the courthouse, which is a clear violation of the separation of church and state, but it was allowed. The local Satanist Church pushed for their Religious views to also be represented on Government property and pushed for a bronze statue of Satan to be mounted as well. As far as I can tell from Googling, it hasn't been erected or stopped yet, but they will withdraw their petition if the Christian display is removed.

The point of this is you have to allow all Religions to be represented or none of them. People get huffy when only one is shown, because it shows a clear promotion of that belief by the state over any it would decline the same treatment.

Stop turning a time of year that is supposed to be about family, togetherness, and giving into a time of year focused on hostility, divisiveness and acquisition.

Oniya, if it's a time for family and togetherness, then the state promoting one Religion over others has no baring on the holiday. It's still a violation of the countries founding principals, not something you want to annually turn a blind eye to just to preserve civility. That in itself is an endorsement of Christianity, and reinforces the myth that America is a 'Christian Nation'.

Offline Alsheriam

Re: What Are Your Impressions of Atheism
« Reply #108 on: August 01, 2014, 12:58:23 AM »

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Re: What Are Your Impressions of Atheism
« Reply #109 on: August 01, 2014, 12:58:54 AM »
Except that - just as with Halloween - it has become a very secular celebration.

Offline Sabby

Re: What Are Your Impressions of Atheism
« Reply #110 on: August 01, 2014, 01:03:18 AM »
You misunderstand, I agree with you. Like Halloween, Christmas is becoming more and more of a secular tradition. I never meant to imply that having Christmas promotes Christianity. Christian displays on public and government property during Christmas, on the other hand, do just that. Sorry, but I just don't find it wise to lay back and allow the annual mass violation of the separation of church and state just to maintain the peace. It causes too many problems down the line.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2014, 01:04:31 AM by Sabby »

Offline Ironwolf85

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Re: What Are Your Impressions of Atheism
« Reply #111 on: August 01, 2014, 01:51:43 AM »
Uh... I think he was trying to help you. I wouldn't have said that, and I personally feel that was kind of a major case of foot in mouth, but doesn't sound to me like he was trying to exclude you, just make you aware of your surroundings.

Once again, not the approach I would take, and it sucks he even felt the need to do that, but I would hardly call this justification for sweeping generalizations of Atheists.

It is those surroundings, where you need to hide a faith in a greater power, just to look professional, which pissed me off.

What I would like more than anything would be people able to talk publicly about their dearly held beliefs, and ability to debate each other in civil discourse. WITHOUT it turning into a "My way is better than yours" media circus where everyone walks away with sore feelings. I've called fellow Christians out on this, albeit those kind of faithful aren't likely to come to Elliquiy. Thank God for that.

I admit there are some religious things that cannot be tolerated in modern society. Cannibalism, human sacrifice, and the like.
But we should be able to have a civil discussion about ethics and mankind without some media nut from FOX trying to boost his fucking ratings, or guys on four sides of an argument trying to sell their new books via public outrage.

Offline Mikem

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Re: What Are Your Impressions of Atheism
« Reply #112 on: August 01, 2014, 06:44:05 AM »
Quote
You misunderstand, I agree with you. Like Halloween, Christmas is becoming more and more of a secular tradition. I never meant to imply that having Christmas promotes Christianity.

I always enjoyed Christmas, and for the right reasons, not for the "Ooh I get free stuff today!" reason. (well...I do like the stuff) That said, I've never celebrated Christmas as a religious holiday. Just never saw the need to. It's a family and community Holiday first and foremost for me. I know the story behind the day, I just don't really care to or want to make it religious.

Offline Alsheriam

Re: What Are Your Impressions of Atheism
« Reply #113 on: August 01, 2014, 06:50:41 AM »
It is those surroundings, where you need to hide a faith in a greater power, just to look professional, which pissed me off.

What I would like more than anything would be people able to talk publicly about their dearly held beliefs, and ability to debate each other in civil discourse. WITHOUT it turning into a "My way is better than yours" media circus where everyone walks away with sore feelings. I've called fellow Christians out on this, albeit those kind of faithful aren't likely to come to Elliquiy. Thank God for that.

I admit there are some religious things that cannot be tolerated in modern society. Cannibalism, human sacrifice, and the like.
But we should be able to have a civil discussion about ethics and mankind without some media nut from FOX trying to boost his fucking ratings, or guys on four sides of an argument trying to sell their new books via public outrage.

To tell you the truth, if I were still the Baptist minister that I used to be, I would not rebuke you for merely being on E, for after all Jesus did associate himself with lepers and whores. But he did so to save them.

Instead, I would have rebuked you for not doing your duty as a Christian for not spreading the Good News to others on E (even if it flouts the rules here, but who cares? All worldly rules are nothing to the Kingdom of Heaven), and worse still, drowning yourself in sin.

Thank goodness I'm an atheist.

Offline Sethala

Re: What Are Your Impressions of Atheism
« Reply #114 on: August 01, 2014, 09:12:23 AM »
I can't believe I missed this.

Ironwolf, are you familiar with what occurred in Oklahoma earlier this year? A Christian display was approved inside the courthouse, which is a clear violation of the separation of church and state, but it was allowed. The local Satanist Church pushed for their Religious views to also be represented on Government property and pushed for a bronze statue of Satan to be mounted as well. As far as I can tell from Googling, it hasn't been erected or stopped yet, but they will withdraw their petition if the Christian display is removed.

The point of this is you have to allow all Religions to be represented or none of them. People get huffy when only one is shown, because it shows a clear promotion of that belief by the state over any it would decline the same treatment.

Admittedly, what Ironwolf said about the manger is fine, in my opinion, since it's an open bid for the space, and anyone who can raise enough money is free to put whatever they want there.  I don't think it's necessary to promote every group in a space, so long as every group has an equal opportunity to be represented in that space.

I'm just infuriated that no action was taken by any party after the smashing of the mangers. Only the local churches seemed to be mad about it. Both a Christmas display that the local Knights of Columbus bid, and won,  the rental for. As well as a few displays on church property were damaged.
(Basically anyone can bid to put a holiday display in a little area set aside in the park. Any group can apply and bid, be it red cross, a charity group, a church, an advocate group, private bidders, ect. I was in charge of handling the paper work. we had a jewish group win last year, this year Knights of Columbus won. Year before that it was freaking Coke for some reason.)
I feel like if someone had smashed a menorah made of ice, or slapped graffiti across a atheist banner the year they won, there would have been much more of a fuss.

The second bit was that after a presentation a prof took me aside and advised me not to wear a cross when speaking on scientific matters. Because it would help my image...

Honestly, I am appalled that someone would vandalize a display like that, and even more so if there was simple acceptance of the act.  While I am all for removing religious displays from public areas (although the display in your case gets a complete pass because it's an open bid, not just a state-sponsored display), doing it by destroying them is never the right answer.

As for the second paragraph, do you mind if I ask what the presentation was about?  Most science fields shouldn't care about what kind of religious beliefs a person has, but there's a few elements of science (particularly anything to do with evolution) where religion has made a very bad name for itself, and if that's what your presentation was about, I'd say any criticism of your faith is something that's only brought on because of how other members of your faith have acted in regards to science.

Oh can we all please agree to stop paying attention to those stupid battles over Christmas. I mean all sides, everyone who reads this Christian, Jew, Muslim, Athiests, neo-pagans and everyone else. Let's stop it please, it only makes the stupid act stupider around that time of year.

Not sure entirely what kind of battles you mean, but if you're talking about organizations trying to take down state-sponsored religious displays at Christmastime, then I'm going to say no, you don't get to promote your religion in a public space for free just because of the holiday.  (Again, if it's a display that was purchased through an open bid that any group could have paid for, that's an exception.)  A lot of the other crap that gets thrown around that time of year though, yeah, it's kinda stupid.

Offline vtboy

Re: What Are Your Impressions of Atheism
« Reply #115 on: August 01, 2014, 09:37:35 AM »
Quote from: Beejay
I am also sorry that the entire atheist community didn't apologize for what some vandals did.

What is the "atheist community"?

I've long been an atheist, but have never been invited to an atheist social, picnic or rally. If there are atheist neighborhoods, I have no idea where they are. I've also yet to be asked to contribute money or time to anything identified as an atheist movement or cause.

Even if there is an atheist community, why on earth should it apologize for some obviously deranged individual whose acts it has never urged or endorsed?

Offline Ephiral

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Re: What Are Your Impressions of Atheism
« Reply #116 on: August 01, 2014, 12:41:08 PM »
I'm just infuriated that no action was taken by any party after the smashing of the mangers. Only the local churches seemed to be mad about it. Both a Christmas display that the local Knights of Columbus bid, and won,  the rental for. As well as a few displays on church property were damaged.
What have you done for the atheists around the world who have been imprisoned or worse for speaking up? To prevent the sort of vandalism I linked to earlier? To stop governmental bodies from officially praying?

This is a large part of the problem with how you're coming across. You're demanding that atheists protect your interests (whether by taking action, as above, or sitting down and shutting up, as below). Why should we, unless you're going to do the same for us?

Oh can we all please agree to stop paying attention to those stupid battles over Christmas. I mean all sides, everyone who reads this Christian, Jew, Muslim, Athiests, neo-pagans and everyone else. Let's stop it please, it only makes the stupid act stupider around that time of year.
As things currently stand, this would be an endorsement of religious privilege in a lot of places. Why would this be a good idea for atheists?

EDIT: Toned things down a bit.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2014, 12:45:05 PM by Ephiral »

Offline Iniquitous

Re: What Are Your Impressions of Atheism
« Reply #117 on: August 01, 2014, 02:34:16 PM »
I always enjoyed Christmas, and for the right reasons, not for the "Ooh I get free stuff today!" reason. (well...I do like the stuff) That said, I've never celebrated Christmas as a religious holiday. Just never saw the need to. It's a family and community Holiday first and foremost for me. I know the story behind the day, I just don't really care to or want to make it religious.

You know the Christian story. Do you know where it came from, how it came to be called 'christmas'? The day was not originally christian at all.

Offline Ironwolf85

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Re: What Are Your Impressions of Atheism
« Reply #118 on: August 01, 2014, 05:30:55 PM »
What is the "atheist community"?

I've long been an atheist, but have never been invited to an atheist social, picnic or rally. If there are atheist neighborhoods, I have no idea where they are. I've also yet to be asked to contribute money or time to anything identified as an atheist movement or cause.

Even if there is an atheist community, why on earth should it apologize for some obviously deranged individual whose acts it has never urged or endorsed?

I should apologize, when I said community out of hand I should've been clearer. Advocacy groups.

I don't want people to "Sit down and shut up" with the whole Christmas thing. What I'd like is for things to be a bit more respectful and less circus-ish.
Maybe more cities should allow folks to bid on a public display place around the holidays. But I could see their being some screening process like we have here, so some rich guy doesn't put a giant paper mache middle finger in a central park.
One rich old guy tried to do that because city ordinances wouldn't let him put a heli-pad in his back yard, which was in the middle of middle class housing.

The paper was in biology, it was on the evolution of the respiratory system.

Offline Sabby

Re: What Are Your Impressions of Atheism
« Reply #119 on: August 01, 2014, 05:38:57 PM »
The paper was in biology, it was on the evolution of the respiratory system.

Then you have the Creationists to blame for the environment in your classroom.

Offline Ironwolf85

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Re: What Are Your Impressions of Atheism
« Reply #120 on: August 01, 2014, 05:47:02 PM »
Then you have the Creationists to blame for the environment in your classroom.

Don't worry sabby I have a bone to pick with the people who promote creationism. In doing so they prevent kids from engaging in a constructive discussion. Besides evolution has be proven, it's not a theory.

We largely have "Brutha Billy" aka billy graham to thank for reviving it in the 70's / 80's he wasn't all bad but some have taken his conservative religious views and wrung them for a profit so hard that they've started bleeding. Pat Robertson is one of those people.
Don't worry, god will forgive him when he finally gives himself a heart attack, as will the LGBT community in heaven. Much to his horror.

Offline Sabby

Re: What Are Your Impressions of Atheism
« Reply #121 on: August 01, 2014, 05:52:21 PM »
Evolution is a theory, just the word 'theory' is used differently in science. Theory is what a concept graduates to, really.

Offline Ironwolf85

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Re: What Are Your Impressions of Atheism
« Reply #122 on: August 01, 2014, 05:56:02 PM »
Evolution is a theory, just the word 'theory' is used differently in science. Theory is what a concept graduates to, really.
Aha
as far as I'm concerned it's a fact.

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Re: What Are Your Impressions of Atheism
« Reply #123 on: August 01, 2014, 05:57:06 PM »
I don't want people to "Sit down and shut up" with the whole Christmas thing. What I'd like is for things to be a bit more respectful and less circus-ish.
The entire conflict revolves around the fact that this is a matter of religious privilege. Religious displays frequently violate the law? No problem unless someone sues, and then the plaintiff is viewed as a troublemaker. Atheist displays stick to the letter of the law? They garner protests and often vandalism.

Why should anyone respect that, exactly? Why shouldn't they push, through entirely legal methods in keeping with the values of a modern pluralistic society, to end this blatant double-standard? The struggle isn't offensive - its necessity in a society that claims to be better than this is.

Besides evolution has be proven, it's not a theory.
Minor technical point here: The bolded portion is incorrect. A theory, in science, is not something which is unproven - it is a model of reality that fits all known data and has predictive power. Evolution is a theory, in the same sense that heliocentricism, gravity, plate tectonics, and quantum mechanics are theories. I don't mean to come down on you, but the continued spread of this misunderstanding is a powerful weapon in the creationist arsenal.

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Re: What Are Your Impressions of Atheism
« Reply #124 on: August 01, 2014, 06:11:52 PM »
Or, as the button says, 'Gravity is also "just a theory", but you don't see anyone jumping out of buildings because of that.'