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Author Topic: Iraq (was Re: Obama-Biden)  (Read 2525 times)

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Offline The OverlordTopic starter

Iraq (was Re: Obama-Biden)
« on: August 25, 2008, 09:15:48 AM »
Personally I think we should yank out and let Iraq collapse under its own weight but that's not the responsible thing to do.


The point can be argued indefinitely, but the most responsible thing we could have done was not to invade in the first place. Assuming that Bush and his cronies actually didn't know the intel on Iraqi WMD's was erroneous (and I expect to be skiing in hell first) it's like, whoops, who knew, but now that we're here and fracked the place up, we'll help rebuild it! How about an oil contract or three?

I wonder if Hallmark ever considered making a So Sorry We Invaded Your Country card...seems to me they could make a killing on it, pardon pun.

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Iraq (was Re: Obama-Biden)
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2008, 09:32:18 AM »
You're right we shouldn't have invaded it. We should have carpet bombed it into a crater and walked away. I wouldn't expect America to sit back and take a terrorist attack and not do anything about it.
As for the WMDs. Iraq had the facilities, the materials, and the means to make them. They're just in Syria or some other place. If it looks like a duck, quacks, like a duck.
Besides its not technically a war. A war is described as one sovereign state attacking another by modern standards. This is an extended police action.
But what would have happened if we hadn't done anything after 9/11. I wouldn't want to think about it.
 

Offline Vekseid

Re: Iraq (was Re: Obama-Biden)
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2008, 10:54:49 AM »
What did Iraq have to do with 9/11?

Why didn't Bush do anything about a country that we knew was hiding Osama, but happily went after Iraq instead?

Which of the two candidates has voiced a desire do something about said country?

Offline Sherona

Re: Iraq (was Re: Obama-Biden)
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2008, 10:55:26 AM »
While I do think that Saddam probably was doing things shady with WMD, and managing to hide them because frankly anyone who is innocent is not going to jerk around UN authorized inspectors knowing this (the invasion) was a good possibility when the UN finally got tired of being jerked around. The fact of the matter is, there are civillians in Iraq, Civillians that had nothing to do with WMD (real or imagined), civilians that had nothing to do with any terrorist organizations (which btw, there is no hard proof that iraq is/was fundign Al Queda.) Who did not and do not deserve to be "Bombed into a crater"

The days where America can prance about bombing who they please, taking up the "We are the best country" rally cries have come to an end. Did we learn nothing from Korea, Vietnam, the Cold War? Negotiations work so much better then Bombing innocent people to get a point across (which btw, is one of the crimes tha Saddam was hanged for).

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Re: Iraq (was Re: Obama-Biden)
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2008, 11:43:40 AM »
Hmmm, well, a war is generally multifaceted.  That is to say, there are a LOT of different aspects and points of view.  The government, The soldiers, The people, and The other country involved with their many facets.  I can give you a piece of what the people say, that being the opinion of me, I can also give you what opinion poles say that the people say.  I could give you what the government says and what some soldiers say.  I could even give you a little of what the other country says.  There is so much involved in a war. 

Boy, I don't know if any of that made any sense at all. . .  But, now on to what I think about this war. 

War is a hard topic to discuss, I think because there is so much involved.  When 911 happened I saw the American people (most of them and this is from the point of view of a pre-teen) backing Bush in just about anything he wanted to do because they were scared and pissed.  I was in the 7th grade and I remember how I felt that day, numb.  I don't think that I could fully comprehend what I was seeing on the screen of my homeroom class even if I was an adult.  Bush took action and we were ready to kick ass!  But as things progressed I began to see the people straying from this backing of Bush.  I saw people who were just plain tired of the war, people who were grieving for their lost loved ones, and people who thought it was a conspiracy all along.  I sat in the midst of this. . .opinionless. 

We didn't talk about it much in school except for a few students who had big mouths and big opinions who thought we should leave Iraq to rot.  A few people even thought we should drop an A bomb on them and dust our hands off. 

As I progressed into adulthood I still didn't have much to say about it.  This is not to say that I didn't spend time thinking about it.  First I decided that the people of Iraq didn't want us there and we should certainly leave them alone!  What good were we doing forcing ourselves on them?  Then I came to the frame of mind that maybe it was all just a crock of bull. . .  Maybe it was all Bush working to gain whatever he sat to gain.  But. . .there was just too much involved.  I just couldn't work things out in my head. 

Now I'm a mature adult and I still don't REALLY know how I feel about the war.  A part of me wishes we'd pull out and leave Iraq to itself and a part of me knows there's much more to it than just that.  But I guess that in eight years I still sit here numb and no matter how much I've grown or learned there seems to be still too much for me to comprehend. . .

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Iraq (was Re: Obama-Biden)
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2008, 01:27:44 PM »
No what pissed ME off what our esteemed elected officials in Congress didn't really ask questions and dig before granting the president war powers to deal with Iraq. Where was the freaking oversight I frankly thought if we were going to war we needed the same level and clear evidence as the Cuban Missle Crisis in Cuba. We could see the missles, see them being readied and brought on-line and we knew they were nuclear missles there was no question and we acted accordingly.

Like I pointed out just the fact Hussain is a monster that we put into power people forget that, we gave hime chemical weapons technology and pretty much said in his war with Iran with our silence go ahead use it, didn't mean he was a real threat to the United States. He did use this technology internally it did not make it our problem that was a domestic issue. Unless you can show me that he was developing and had this technology active and was actually giving it to terrorists that were likely to use it in attacks we had no reason to invade he was contained. He had nothing to do with 9/11. In fact he hated Al Queda he was the last nation we had to worry about.

He was contained who was he a threat to Turkey (NATO Memeber), Saudi Arabia (we would have to intervene), Iran (armed like hell), Israel (you know what they would do) as I see it he had no place to go if he wanted to. And seeing now what is going on we were better with him IN power. Do you know the Christians in Iraq the oldest community around is being systematically destroyed since there is no more protection?

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Re: Iraq (was Re: Obama-Biden)
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2008, 01:33:01 PM »
And seeing now what is going on we were better with him IN power. Do you know the Christians in Iraq the oldest community around is being systematically destroyed since there is no more protection?

Ok. . .this may sound kind of callouse.  What's new.  People are being persecuted and killed for their religion.  It happens alot in other countries.  Persecution of people for their religion even happens here in the good old USA.  Believe me, I've been through it, I know.  Does the govt. stand up for them. . .not usually.  It's age old and it happens everywhere. . .they may not be getting killed etc. everywhere but they are being persecuted everywhere.

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Re: Iraq (was Re: Obama-Biden)
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2008, 01:33:42 PM »
I'm curious about something. Did the Downing Street memos actually get much airtime in the US? Those are the ones that said, if I remember correctly, Bush was telling Blair that he intended to invade Iraq regardless of what evidence was turned up.

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Re: Iraq (was Re: Obama-Biden)
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2008, 01:35:46 PM »
I'm curious about something. Did the Downing Street memos actually get much airtime in the US? Those are the ones that said, if I remember correctly, Bush was telling Blair that he intended to invade Iraq regardless of what evidence was turned up.

I think I remember something about those but a good deal of my time from 9th grade to 17 years old I was pretty cut off from the world media and stuff.  So I'm not really sure but I do think I remember hearing about them.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Iraq (was Re: Obama-Biden)
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2008, 01:44:08 PM »
Ok. . .this may sound kind of callouse.  What's new.  People are being persecuted and killed for their religion.  It happens alot in other countries.  Persecution of people for their religion even happens here in the good old USA.  Believe me, I've been through it, I know.  Does the govt. stand up for them. . .not usually.  It's age old and it happens everywhere. . .they may not be getting killed etc. everywhere but they are being persecuted everywhere.

Yet but Hussein for all of his flaws kept this contained and under control in Iraq. In fact one Christian leader of a church there who was in there when he was in power and now said things were far better before. The United States went in ignoring all common sense of how to enter by invasion and hold a country, ignored every common sense thing to keep their military at the time on our side and we are now pissing off Iran. If they did decide to openly support Iraqi insurgents and even support with advisors and training in Iran, and Syria did for their supporters then what the hell would we do?

We cannot invade Iran it would be insane and McCain I'm sure will attack them if he is elected, they are not Iraq they will fight and have a large and formidable military and covert operations arm to do it.

Obama will not be much better.

In this case I don't blame Bush though I blame Congress for granting him such powers without fully investigating the truth and getting suitable evidence that he was a threat to the United States. Even then I would have pushed to stay out of the matter unless the United States or an ally was attacked by Iraq or weapons clearly supplied by Iraq.

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Re: Iraq (was Re: Obama-Biden)
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2008, 01:49:01 PM »
Yet but Hussein for all of his flaws kept this contained and under control in Iraq. In fact one Christian leader of a church there who was in there when he was in power and now said things were far better before.

. . .*sighs*  If all your worried about are the Christians getting hurt and killed I see a problem there.  When Hussein was in power he and his sons were raping and murdering woman.  People were not safe!  Just because the Christians were protected does not make things better before the US invaded.  Woman and children and families. . .I think that the bigger picture is more important. 

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Iraq (was Re: Obama-Biden)
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2008, 02:25:36 PM »
Let me reply with a simple question: Did IRAQ in any way that mattered moreso than those in other nations directly attack or pose an immediate threat to the United States- example did Hussein train and give open aid for the 9/11 attack? Was he making and clearly supplying Chemical Weapons to known terrorist groups? etc. etc. (not rumors evidence that could not be questioned by anyone)

If you can answer Yes then I want to see the evidence.

If No, and the evidence and his actions point to that then its was none of our business.

The UN wanted to act why not ask the EU to commit to the invasion or the Russians or the Chinese- why the United States, because we are patsies.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2008, 02:27:02 PM by RubySlippers »

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Re: Iraq (was Re: Obama-Biden)
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2008, 02:29:02 PM »
How about 'because Bush was going to do it anyway?' The UN were not in favour of invasion, so Bush basically said 'to hell with you' and went and invaded anyway. The US was not ordered, tricked or pressured into invading.

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Re: Iraq (was Re: Obama-Biden)
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2008, 02:32:29 PM »
Let me reply with a simple question: Did IRAQ in any way that mattered moreso than those in other nations directly attack or pose an immediate threat to the United States- example did Hussein train and give open aid for the 9/11 attack? Was he making and clearly supplying Chemical Weapons to known terrorist groups? etc. etc. (not rumors evidence that could not be questioned by anyone)

If you can answer Yes then I want to see the evidence.

If No, and the evidence and his actions point to that then its was none of our business.

The UN wanted to act why not ask the EU to commit to the invasion or the Russians or the Chinese- why the United States, because we are patsies.

I'm not saying that it's alright that we invaded.  I was just replying to that piece that you had. . .I quoted it.  I already stated my uncertanty about the war. 

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Iraq (was Re: Obama-Biden)
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2008, 02:47:11 PM »
Well we should be talking on what we should do now. We are there and it was stupid and not necessary but its a mute point.

Since we gave their goverment several years to get on the ball and do their job in keeping the peace I suggest a simple solution. Obama is he gets in should on his executive order as presdient order all forces out of Iraq in 90 days they had long enough if they are not ready then its no longer our business.

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Re: Iraq (was Re: Obama-Biden)
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2008, 02:52:46 PM »
Well we should be talking on what we should do now. We are there and it was stupid and not necessary but its a mute point.

Since we gave their goverment several years to get on the ball and do their job in keeping the peace I suggest a simple solution. Obama is he gets in should on his executive order as presdient order all forces out of Iraq in 90 days they had long enough if they are not ready then its no longer our business.

Life is not that simple and trying to pull troops out in 90 days is not reasonable. . .

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Iraq (was Re: Obama-Biden)
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2008, 03:00:29 PM »
Sure it is we left Vietname in under 90 days when we decide to just get the men and women out, expensive gear and equipment move to a base in an adjoining nation and withdraw. Any light arms and such we can leave damaged and unuseable. See here is Iraq, here is Turkey and Kuwait and Saudi Arabia and Isreal we have plenty of places to withdraw to quickly.

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Re: Iraq (was Re: Obama-Biden)
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2008, 03:02:03 PM »
You seem to be overlooking the part about taking responsibility for your actions there.

Offline ShrowdedPoet

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Re: Iraq (was Re: Obama-Biden)
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2008, 03:06:57 PM »
You seem to be overlooking the part about taking responsibility for your actions there.

*nods nods*


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Re: Iraq (was Re: Obama-Biden)
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2008, 03:11:21 PM »
Sure it is we left Vietname in under 90 days when we decide to just get the men and women out, expensive gear and equipment move to a base in an adjoining nation and withdraw. Any light arms and such we can leave damaged and unuseable. See here is Iraq, here is Turkey and Kuwait and Saudi Arabia and Isreal we have plenty of places to withdraw to quickly.

There is quite a bit more technology and gear in Iraq than there was in Vietnam.  Which makes a move all that more difficult and time consuming.  90 days, most likely not, 180, maybe. 

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Re: Iraq (was Re: Obama-Biden)
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2008, 03:12:28 PM »
There is quite a bit more technology and gear in Iraq than there was in Vietnam.  Which makes a move all that more difficult and time consuming.  90 days, most likely not, 180, maybe. 

. . .I say we probably need a year to withdraw when we finally make that decision. . .

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Iraq (was Re: Obama-Biden)
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2008, 03:17:41 PM »
No we march out our troops, take with them what we can and blow up anything that could be useful to the enemy eating the loss. It would be cheaper long term than staying there.

As for responsibility we gave them years to get their act together, they have oil income and cash reserves and a government in power let them do what they should do and run their own country and cover the costs. Anyway what is the world going to do bitch at us there is nothing in the internatinal law that demands we stay indefinately to rebuild an invaded nation we commited more than enough in our money and blood of our citizens to pay such a debt.

And a year for what so they can sit there and keep attacking us to get us out or the government of Iraq to try and change our minds they had YEARS longer than it took us to defeat our enemies in WWII to get their government working and if they are not ready now, too bad.

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Re: Iraq (was Re: Obama-Biden)
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2008, 03:20:19 PM »
You want to blow up millions of dollars worth of equipment paid for by tax payers?  Am I understanding you correctly?

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Iraq (was Re: Obama-Biden)
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2008, 03:37:46 PM »
Lets see we are spending without costs like medical care and treatment $10 billion a month in Iraq. If we can carry it out or fly it out in 90 days to a nearby nation then fine take it with us. If not make sure the enemy can't use it or give it to the Iraqi government it can be a gift. But yes its better to lose the money short term than staying there longer than necessary.

As for leaving that is easy get our troops to get all their gear and march them across the nearest freindly border before returning them to our country and bases.

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Re: Iraq (was Re: Obama-Biden)
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2008, 03:39:47 PM »
No we march out our troops, take with them what we can and blow up anything that could be useful to the enemy eating the loss. It would be cheaper long term than staying there.

As for responsibility we gave them years to get their act together, they have oil income and cash reserves and a government in power let them do what they should do and run their own country and cover the costs. Anyway what is the world going to do bitch at us there is nothing in the internatinal law that demands we stay indefinately to rebuild an invaded nation we commited more than enough in our money and blood of our citizens to pay such a debt.

And a year for what so they can sit there and keep attacking us to get us out or the government of Iraq to try and change our minds they had YEARS longer than it took us to defeat our enemies in WWII to get their government working and if they are not ready now, too bad.

That leaves a bad taste in my mouth.  A year to systematically withdraw our troops taking our things with us.  We need time to do things correctly and in an orderly manner.  Just jumping up and rushing out will not help things any.