Drinking Age

[ShrowdedPoet]

Have you all heard that about a 100 or better college presidents are trying to lower the drinking age to 18? 

http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/YouthIssues/1099068588.html

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=3708133&page=1

What do you guys think about this?

Now my 2 cents?  Here I go. . .

I think it shouldn't really be a huge problem.  The drinking age was once 18.  18 is when you become a legal adult.  18 is when you can make the choice to marry without parental concent (in most states with the exception of Louisiana which you have to be 21).  18 is when you can smoke legally.  18 is when you can go to Adult themed things legally.  When you're 18 you're old enough to die for your country.  Why shouldn't you also be aloud to drink?

In Sociology Tuesday (8/19/08) a girl began with this discussion.  She thinks that it's a bad idea cause 18 year olds are not responsible enough.  She thinks that drunk driving and binge drinking will increase.  My stance on this issue is, school aged kids are drinking regardless of the law.  They are getting into cars and driving under the influence, regardless of the law.  They are binge drinking, regardless of the law.  So I just think we wouldn't see an increase in these dangerous activities. 

Actually I think that maybe, MAYBE, it will ease up some.  If you tell a teen they can't do or have something, a good number of them do it or get it because you said they couldn't.  So now we're saying they can. . .it doesn't hold the same appeal as it once did.  The forbidden fruit. 

Not to mention it makes life better for me cause I can buy my own alcohol without having to get my husband to (I am 20).  I can go to bars.  Not that I'll do these things any more often than I already do (drinking) but it makes it easier for my husband and I to do these activities together.

So, what do you all think?

[Sherona]

Frankly, the reason that teenagers are still able to binge drink (and die) is because store owners are not facing up to the responsibilities of carding their customers. It takes a few extra seconds to look at a drivers license, In Oklahoma our drivers licenses and state ID cards have a red strip if the person is under 18, and a yello wif under 21 so all it takes is a brief glance to see.

We are cracking down on this in our little town, first time a store owner is busted is a huge fine and a week's liquour license suspended, second time a bigger fine and amonths suspension, the third time is jail time for the store owner.

Frankly my last large night of drinking I was 18 years old..and I really was not mature enough to decide "hey this might not be such a good idea" someone died, I was actually questioned on charges of involuntary manslaughter (though evidence later showed that I was no where near the man that died so wasn't even officially charged) it was enough to scare the living daylights out of me and I realized right then and there that I was not going to take part in getting drunk. I am sensitive to alcohol so even a single beer can get me buzzed.

I think 18-21 year olds will be in favor of this because then they can drink to their hearts content without worry. But there is a reason that the age was raised. It is harder for younger people who do not have the life experiance to realize "heythis is FUN but it could be dangerous!" because frankly most (not all) young people have a mortality issue..they think "It wont happen to me..nothin bad can happen to me" which is why the smoking age is18, and drinking is 21.

I also applied for a marriage license in louisiana before 21 and was able to, so that must have been changed since you last heard or perhaps changed since I was 19.

[ShrowdedPoet]

Frankly, the reason that teenagers are still able to binge drink (and die) is because store owners are not facing up to the responsibilities of carding their customers. It takes a few extra seconds to look at a drivers license, In Oklahoma our drivers licenses and state ID cards have a red strip if the person is under 18, and a yello wif under 21 so all it takes is a brief glance to see.

We are cracking down on this in our little town, first time a store owner is busted is a huge fine and a week's liquour license suspended, second time a bigger fine and amonths suspension, the third time is jail time for the store owner.

Frankly my last large night of drinking I was 18 years old..and I really was not mature enough to decide "hey this might not be such a good idea" someone died, I was actually questioned on charges of involuntary manslaughter (though evidence later showed that I was no where near the man that died so wasn't even officially charged) it was enough to scare the living daylights out of me and I realized right then and there that I was not going to take part in getting drunk. I am sensitive to alcohol so even a single beer can get me buzzed.

I think 18-21 year olds will be in favor of this because then they can drink to their hearts content without worry. But there is a reason that the age was raised. It is harder for younger people who do not have the life experience to realize "heythis is FUN but it could be dangerous!" because frankly most (not all) young people have a mortality issue..they think "It wont happen to me..nothin bad can happen to me" which is why the smoking age is18, and drinking is 21.

I also applied for a marriage license in Louisiana before 21 and was able to, so that must have been changed since you last heard or perhaps changed since I was 19.

It's the same with the IDs here in AR.  And Jail time is pretty immanent the second time around.  Though it can't all be blamed on the store owners.  Most of my underaged friends either have fake IDs or get an older friend to buy it for them.

I really never had these experiences and most of the younger people I know and knew didn't either.  But I'm sure there is a maturity issue in play though I don't think it's as bad now as it may have been years ago (not saying anything about your age just saying something about different generations). 

I haven't heard this being a reason for favoring it but I'm sure it's out there.

Well. . .it could have. . .the last time I looked I was 15.

[Sherona]

*laughs* Are you calling me OLD poet? hehehee. I know what you are saying. And honestly 10 years ago I would have agreed with you. at 18 I was all arguing "what is 21 really? Am I magically going to gain impessive wisdom after this number?" but after 10 years I look back at all the growing and maturing I did between 18-21 and realize that yeah at 18 I definitely wasn't ready no matter how much I thought I was.

[RubySlippers]

Lets see if eighteen years olds are too irresponsible to drink then they shouldn't be allowed to vote, be drafted, make contracts or anything else until the age of twenty-one using the same logic. I think this I know is a funny idea why not trust family to teach children to be responsible drinkers then maybe they would not abuse it?

Really I don't drink because I don't want to, even at church I take the grape juice. But I wouldn't anyway because its illegal I can wait until I'm twenty-one to try it and I did try wine once at a family dinner with my parents ok that was nice. So I might take up collecting a few bottles and a small amount of wine for a drink now and then at that point.

[ShrowdedPoet]

*laughs* Are you calling me OLD poet? hehehee. I know what you are saying. And honestly 10 years ago I would have agreed with you. at 18 I was all arguing "what is 21 really? Am I magically going to gain impessive wisdom after this number?" but after 10 years I look back at all the growing and maturing I did between 18-21 and realize that yeah at 18 I definitely wasn't ready no matter how much I thought I was.

Well, I'm different than most people my age.  I've always kind of been more adult.  The maturing you're talking about that happens between 18-21. . .happened for me between 16-18.  So it's really hard for me to relate to people my own age or to understand the way older people react to people my age.  *laughs*  So I am kind of the oddball.  I didn't start drinking till I was 17, after I had a kid and I only had a beer every once in a blue moon.  *shrugs*  

I'm not arguing that you are wrong. . .I WANT other opinions.  I find it invigorating and also eye opening.  

[Inkidu]

I personally think it should be lowered to at least twenty. I've heard that excesses of alcohol in the adolescent system causes increased addiction. Which may or may not be true but I'd rather everyone play it safe than sorry. Eighteen might be a little too soon because you have a lot of kids who wouldn't buy alcohol illegally suddenly given a lot of new freedom and their judgment might not catch up.

I do know that a lot of underage drinking does come from booze being the forbidden fruit. Most do it just because they're not allowed to.
Personally for me any alcoholic beverage taste like crap. Its just my taste.
Also I believe that somewhere around 40% of traffic fatalities in America are caused by drunk driving that leaves 60% that are caused by sober drivers.
 

[ShrowdedPoet]

Lets see if eighteen years olds are too irresponsible to drink then they shouldn't be allowed to vote, be drafted, make contracts or anything else until the age of twenty-one using the same logic. I think this I know is a funny idea why not trust family to teach children to be responsible drinkers then maybe they would not abuse it?

An argument that alot of people share.  Though the very last part is new to me and I really like it!  That's an excellent idea.  The reason most parents do not is the same reason, I think, that most parents don't teach proper birth control.  It's just not something you talk to your kids about.  This is not my opinion of course (that it's just not something you talk to your kids about, I believe you should) but that's generally what I see.

[Sherona]

Well, I'm different than most people my age.  I've always kind of been more adult.  The maturing you're talking about that happens between 18-21. . .happened for me between 16-18.  So it's really hard for me to relate to people my own age or to understand the way older people react to people my age.  *laughs*  So I am kind of the oddball.  I didn't start drinking till I was 17, after I had a kid and I only had a beer every once in a blue moon.  *shrugs*  

I'm not arguing that you are wrong. . .I WANT other opinions.  I find it invigorating and also eye opening.  

I know hun, and I don't think your ideas are wrong either. Just different perspective. I also know that there are quite a handful like you out there not quite 21 but mature enough, is why I said Most (not all) when referring to maturity levels. Maturity doesn't come with age but with life experiance, and unfortunately some people get a dose of reality earlier then others.

[ShrowdedPoet]

Eighteen might be a little too soon because you have a lot of kids who wouldn't buy alcohol illegally suddenly given a lot of new freedom and their judgment might not catch up.  

The way I see it is, these upstanding underagers who do not drink until they are legal are very unlikely to do other things with alcohol that is illegal such as drinking and driving.  And I think they are also more likely to be more responsible with alcohol.

[ShrowdedPoet]

I know hun, and I don't think your ideas are wrong either. Just different perspective. I also know that there are quite a handful like you out there not quite 21 but mature enough, is why I said Most (not all) when referring to maturity levels. Maturity doesn't come with age but with life experiance, and unfortunately some people get a dose of reality earlier then others.

I understand, not argueing, just giving a little perspective to my point of view.  I love getting others opinions. 

[RubySlippers]

I don't get this opiates were abused in the early 20th century yet a child could go into the pharmacy and buy opiates to take home over the counter for a parent who may be in pain? Also the drinking age was non-existant yet most childrens parents drank and they had exposure yet it was something that grown ups did and children didn't. Same with guns every home pretty much may have had a gun but parents taught children hw to safely be around them and not to touch them.

Funny I thought was one of the parents jobs, and the extended family. 

[ShrowdedPoet]

I don't get this opiates were abused in the early 20th century yet a child could go into the pharmacy and buy opiates to take home over the counter for a parent who may be in pain? Also the drinking age was non-existant yet most childrens parents drank and they had exposure yet it was something that grown ups did and children didn't. Same with guns every home pretty much may have had a gun but parents taught children hw to safely be around them and not to touch them.

Funny I thought was one of the parents jobs, and the extended family. 

Well, sadly now most parents don't teach their children these very important things.  Kids are being pushed to grow up without being taught how to be grown ups.  So we get alot of not ready for the real world kids trying to be adults and do adult things.  It's sad and scary but it's happening all around us.  The change must start with us and our children.  We need to start teaching them these things that our generation is lacking.  Then we'll be able to fix the trend cause hopefully our children will then teach their children.

[RubySlippers]

Thankfully my parents did and when I came out during their sex education talks and I said I think other girls are so beautiful and I get wet sometimes they took it in stride. And my dad is a military man all stodegy and even he held me and said whatever I was and did and who I chose to love he would always be my dad. So I'm grateful for their wisdom and advise on everything and always can go to talk to them. So I guess I'm lucky and think all parents should be that good. So call me biased. 

But they taught me what they wanted to about drugs, alcohol, guns, sex, self-defense, smoking and even how to handle my finances and use credit- and I'm not in debt yet. 

Sometimes I think people should need a license to have children they don't seem somethimes to take their roles seriously.

[ShrowdedPoet]

Sometimes I think people should need a license to have children they don't seem somethimes to take their roles seriously.

I will say that I think some people need better training to become parents but I do not think that a license should be required.

Anyone else have any opinons on the drinking age?

[CassandraNova]

I'm almost ashamed of my apathy, but here's how I feel about it:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/03/20/

Even at 18, people in this country aren't entitled to all activities reserved for adults; there are age requirements on public office, gun ownership in some places, and other things.  I can see the case to be made for both keeping the drinking age at 21 and lowering it to 18, and don't have a solid opinion one way or another.

[Caeli]

There was an article in TIME magazine about this a while back, that aired some of the same views here. :]

I believe that safe and responsible drinking is the duty of the parents to teach to their kids. Everybody knows that drinking goes on in a college campus, and someone who thinks otherwise is somewhat of a fool. If the parents don't teach their children to drink, then who's supposed to do it? Their teachers? Their friends? That's definitely not right.

I don't think there's anything wrong with parents giving their kids a sip of wine at the table every now and then, if they ask. If it's made so forbidden, and they hear from their friends that drinking / partying is so fun, of course a lot of kids will at least think about trying it - and that's not even talking about those who actually go out and do so. Yes, you're right - at 18, there might be quite a few people who aren't ready to drink because they lack maturity. Why, then, the double-standard - you're old enough to be drafted and enlist in the military, but not old enough to drink? You're responsible enough to smoke (which, by the way, is also pretty unhealthy in irresponsible amounts), but not responsible enough to know when not drinking is better? That smacks of... well, I'm not sure what the word is, but the "18-year-olds aren't responsible enough to know what's right" statement just doesn't apply all the way across the board, and it should.

Anyway. I think it should go ahead and be lowered. If people really want to, they'll find a way to get alcohol anyway - might as well just make it legal, and perhaps establish some more visible ways to warn students about alcohol poisoning and the dangers of binge drinking, and how it can ruin your health and future.

I definitely agree with Ruby, though - it's the parents' job to prepare their kid to go into the "real world".

[RubySlippers]

Well there are people now arguing Elderly people who are duped or made a decision that was bad should get a legal opt out under the law, arguing contracts for example are not enforceable. So this is another double standard your old enough and should know better and yet even if your able to reasonably read and sign a contract, you can opt out if it was a bad decision due to an "old age" defense. And these same people insist they are able to still make their own decisions as adults. Its just odd.

Is that any different here we are saying you are eighteen and therefore not able to again make this decision to drink yet we can draft you and send you off to war to die and if you sign a contract we can enforce it.

Seems to me many people are not willing to be stand up men and women and bear the responsibilities for decisions which they made and are of legal age and able to make decisions. For others who cannot they have legal reasons but that is a small minority by what I can see.

[TheAnimeFanGirl]

Personally, I don't care what the drinking age is. I don't drink, and I never will (some reasons obvious and some not as obvious). I kind of agree with the whole "young people won't drink if it's legal" thing, but I also kind of agree with the whole "they'll drink and feel safe if it's legal" thing. So it doesn't really matter what the drinking age is. Young people will still drink, most of them not caring what it might do to them.

I know this might sound really crazy and totally stupid, but this is what I truly wish to happen one day (at least in my dreams it can happen) : I want all of the alcohol in the entire world to be disposed of permanently (unless it's needed for scientific matters). Or it could possibly be used as an alternative fuel source (if that could ever be possible). Why drink beer when you can have a variety of drinks that taste so much better? Like chocolate milk! I mentioned this at another forum, and it's kind of funny: I wish that I had a bar at my house, but it wouldn't be full of beer... It would be full of chocolate milk! A milk bar! I'd have parties, invite some family and friends, and we'd all be chugging milk all night. Now doesn't that sound fun? I think it does. Other yummy drinks include juice, pop, and flavored water. How about a party with all of those drinks? Now that would be really fun.

[sleepingferret]

Sadly the majority of underage people drink just because, well it's illegal so they think it's cool and they want to see if they can get away with it and secondly because well they are drinking to just get drunk...which again they think is cool.

Raising or lowering the drinking age isn't going to do much of anything really.  Just as raising the speed limit has little effect on those who are the ones being issued speeding tickets.  When the speed limit was 55, they were driving 85 or more.... when the limit got raised to 65, guess what the same people were still driving 85 or more.

It isn't a matter of changing or adding new laws, it's more of a matter of proper enforcement of the ones we have.  It may be bad for businesses, especially the small business owner...but hey if you can't get your employees to card customers, fine the business for each offense and/or revoke their liquor license.  Setup random "secret" buys to see if they card an underage customer; conducted under supervision by a law enforcement official nearby.  Failure to card, results in a hefty fine... the business is bound to either go bankrupt or after so many violations just revoke the liquor license.  Makes more work for law enforcement agencies, but what is it going to take to start enforcing a simple law?

It's one thing not being able to catch every hot rod speeding down the road, it's another to ignore the simple fact that we have the power to put a serious crimp on underage drinking by simply enforcing the carding policy.  If an obviously 70 year old man walks in, it's one thing not to card him...but me, I can still probably pass for a high school student or an underage undergrad; and to be honest I'd rather have someone card me and do their job than be hassled about it later or have someone get hassled about it later.

[Trieste]

... actually ... I have seen statistics that argue that the number of fatalities and vehicular-related deaths dropped significantly when speed limits were widely instituted. I can't recall the source, so I couldn't tell you if I believe them, but you might find it interesting to check it out before you make that argument.

I'm fairly certain that if the actual, physical side effects of teenaged drinking were solidly, medically proven, countries that have a lower drinking age than us in addition to universal health care (the most glaring example being Canada) would have raised their drinking age long before now. The drinking age across Canada is 19, except in one province (Ontario?), where it's 18. Their country has not devolved into chaos. Their medical system is overburdened, but not with cirrhotic livers. The world will not end just because teenagers can drink.

Don't get me wrong, teenagers are stupid as a group. Self-centered, unwise, impulsive and arrogant. Every single teenager is convinced that they know everything, they see the world much clearer than any adult, and they already have all of life's answers so they don't need to listen to anyone else. When you get an attitude like that together with alcohol - which impairs judgement and damages impulse control - you are going to have sad things happen, bad things happen, and you're going to get frustrated about what an incredible waste things are... but that's going to be there anyway. If a teenager can wield an M-16 (or whatever, one of those shooty things) for their country, they can drink a beer. And if people drop the drinking age, they can do it at home, under adult supervision (even cursory supervision) where they will be safer. Where an adult can teach them the signs of alcohol poisoning. Where they will have someone around with a cooler head who will remind them to turn their friend over onto their stomach when they pass out ... just in case. Tragedies still happen, and they will happen, but seriously ... parenting? Hello?

[Sherona]

Ok I have to remark on all these seeming attacks on parents relying on laws to protect their kids and not teaching them. We do teach them, using my parents as an example. They told me time and again the dangers of smoking, of sex, of driving too fast. But as a teenager I knew it /all/. I knew that I was not going to ever get hurt, I could never get lung cancer or even addicted to ciggerettes....I certainly could never get pregnant too young..that stuff happens to /other/ people not to me.

So I started smoking, I drove too fast, and though I used safe sex I still got pregnant..now I am addicted to ciggerettes, though I do manage to quit smoking during pregnancy, was in a fairly bad car accident when I was 19 thanks to driving too fast, and then of course there wa smy brief brush with alcohol at 18..So just because parents tell their teenagers the dangers, and try to tell them how to do things responsibly does not mean that teenagers listen.

Some do, some don't.

[Trieste]

Apologies if my post came off that way. The "parenting? hello?" comment was actually directed at lawmakers this time... as in "get the heck out of the way and let parents do their jobs".

[ShrowdedPoet]

*sighs*  DAMN!  I typed a big long reply and was logged out before I could post it and it's all lost!!!

Ok I have to remark on all these seeming attacks on parents relying on laws to protect their kids and not teaching them. We do teach them, using my parents as an example. They told me time and again the dangers of smoking, of sex, of driving too fast. But as a teenager I knew it /all/. I knew that I was not going to ever get hurt, I could never get lung cancer or even addicted to ciggerettes....I certainly could never get pregnant too young..that stuff happens to /other/ people not to me.

So I started smoking, I drove too fast, and though I used safe sex I still got pregnant..now I am addicted to ciggerettes, though I do manage to quit smoking during pregnancy, was in a fairly bad car accident when I was 19 thanks to driving too fast, and then of course there wa smy brief brush with alcohol at 18..So just because parents tell their teenagers the dangers, and try to tell them how to do things responsibly does not mean that teenagers listen.

Some do, some don't.

Sherona, not all parents do not teach.  The thing is too many of them do not teach their children these things.  They don't talk about sex, drugs/cigs, or drinking cause it will encourage these behaviors.  Or they just tell them no without explaining things, they don't teach them things are bad or what can happen.  I see too much of this. 

Apologies if my post came off that way. The "parenting? hello?" comment was actually directed at lawmakers this time... as in "get the heck out of the way and let parents do their jobs".

You're right Trieste!  I would rather my kids drink and have sex in my house where I can teach them and keep them safe as opposed to doing it at a party.

[Sherona]

I am of the opinion the laws making drinking illegal till 21 is in place for those kids whose parents are not guiding them. It makes it that much harder to obtain what they are not ready to handle.