Topic: Post-Apocalyptic Fantasy (Pathfinder)

[Muse]

Wowsa!  That guy's AWESOME, Video.  :) 

Not quite sure where the last 3 of your ranged attack bonus comes from, and didn't think that your Nimble rating would be this high allready, but I'm honestly impressed. 

Rapid Reload, Deadly Aim, Precise Shot.  :)  This guys doesn't miss a trick.  Don't let IL worry you.  I may be able to put 2 15d6 fireballs out a day, but you have an almost unlimited ability to do 1d10+17 damage that's not likely to miss much of anything without rolling a natural one. 

You're doing just fine with pathfinder.  :) 

[Videospirit]

Technically I've got a week's rations in one of those kits.

And if I absolutely need to put out some dps, I can full attack touch attacks of +13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+8 for 1d10+18 each if I want to burn through alchemical cartridges. Crits do 4 times damage too. Likely to have my gun explode if I try that before reaching level 13 though.

[Inerrant Lust]

I'm just an anal worry-wort.

It just concerns me more for fluff reasons... magic is supposed to be a forgotten art, a dying flame that's being barely kept alive. Technically, all (Su) abilities should be gimped in some form as well if the crunch was lore-friendly. Way too much rebalancing and book-keeping involved in that.

And there's always the problem with spell-casters being masters of utility with spells that have way more applications than hitting something really hard... which they can also often do. 

Another thing, the party's make-up so far is... An elven wizard, a tiefling alchemist, a tiefling ninja, a possible tiefling/elven druid, and a halfling gunslinger. It's like... Only one in a thousand people have any sort of supernatural ability at all, and they're all in the same group.

Most of my concern is for fluff, but I hate restricting players from portraying the characters they want to play so it just prods that anal part of my brain to no end. 

[ExisD]

Having a high concentration of the one in a thousand people all doing something dangerous that could save local civilization does make some sense though. After all, anyone else would just wind up dead 

The system is also, unfortunately, entirely balanced around having them around. Outside of magic, no one really gets notable healing abilities

[ShadowFox89]

 Pathfinder is one of the worst systems you could use for anything less than a medium amount of magic spread around, it just isn't designed for it.

[ExisD]

There are worse for less than medium magic, like Exalted in everything but super gritty mode, but not too many that I know of.

I actually really like the variant spell casting rule that we're using to lower the overall magic amount.I'll probably adopt it next time I run a d20 game since it lets me run higher level without working about the game being broken over the caster's knees.

Anyway, mechanics are fun and all. But is anyone else planning on having traveled a lot before game starts? I was wondering what, if any, inter-party connections might be there.

[EroticFantasyAuthor]

Well, point buy is already pretty high. Compared to the heroes and adventurers of old, you've lived through tougher times, faced tougher enemies and been doing all of that without much help, magical or divine or even material. You're simply better because of the world you've lived in.

I would think that the high point by would be explained by the fact that our characters are special/unique and live in a tougher world.

To be honest, things like the +7 AC still seem like 'just because,' which is one of the pitfalls with these variants that really just needlessly oversimplify the game.

I'm a fan of just regular Pathfinder straight out of the books with the occasional homebrew that adds something new(class, race, spell, item, feat, etc) or a new alternate option(archtype, racial trait, etc) rather than those that just cause headaches by either oversimplifying or over complicating the existing rules to try to make them 'better.'

I'm afraid the the magic item variant just kills the campaign for me, which is a shame because I was rather looking forward to it and it sounded like a really cool setting. A big part of Pathfinder(to me) is the additional character customization due to such a wide variety of magical items along with the wonder of discovering new interesting magical items as rewards for exploration and combat.

I understand that the setting is low-magic, and while the mortal world may have lost the power and knowledge to craft magical items, I would still expect the demon/devils to be 'rolling in' them as normal. After all magical items are probably one of the main things that they tempt mortals with.

I don't know, I think it might be best if I bow out.

[Inerrant Lust]

Not really just because... Okay, the +7 AC... that comes from three sources; +3 Armor or Shield, +2 Deflection, +3 Natural Armor.

Amulet of Natural Armor, 18,000 gp (+3)
Ring of Protection,  8,000 gp (+2)
+2 Armor, 4,000 gp (+2)

That's what it is. Except those magic items aren't as common... so it's a replacement.

In-universe... it's not only that the knowledge of crafting magic weapons is lost... but that the magic itself is losing power.

I wanted to do 3.5, you all know... but pathfinder seemed to be the consensus.

[Videospirit]

Don't get +3 natural armor til level 11 >_>

And 3.5 isn't a great deal better for "Well we took away the magic", if any. At least the heal skill can you know... actually restore hitpoints in pathfinder.

And I don't have a SU or SA ability to my name! A man using the tools he has to survive in a world that hates him.

[ShadowFox89]

 Yeah, I'm just gonna bow out. Not liking the direction things are going and I already have a lot on my plate.

[Inerrant Lust]

In any event, I'm sorry to hear you both go. Guess it's my fault for always wanting to do strange campaigns in systems not designed for them. 

So then we've got..

Ghostwheel- Half-elf inquisitor.
ExisD- Tiefling Alchemist
Muse- Elf Wizard
Phaia- Druid?

[Videospirit]

And the star of the show, you can't forget Arngrim Watcher, Halfling Gunslinger!

I'm going to sleep soon though so the tales of his Daring deeds will have to wait until tommorrow or maybe sunday.

[EroticFantasyAuthor]

Yeah, I guess I'd rather either have the items themselves or no item at all rather than a random bonus with no real in-character explanation. I just don't like messing with the game's mechanics/fundamentals, usually just leads to needless headaches, having to worry about remember over-written rules, etc. As I've said, I much prefer house-rules that add a new option to the game, like a new class, a new template, a new alternate racial trait, a new archtype, a new spell, new item etc.

Without the item variant rule, I am still interested in the campaign, please let me know if you decide to drop it.

In the meantime I wish everyone luck, fun and a long successful campaign 

[EroticFantasyAuthor]

One last thing because there seemed to be some misunderstandings and I don't think I was communicating things well enough.

I fully understand where the bonuses are coming from rules-wise and what their purpose is.

In normal Pathfinder the in-character fluff answer is simple, the bonuses are given by a magic item. For example, let's look at a quick conversation behind two characters.

"Hey Eric the Cleric, how come those guys had such a hard time hitting you?" asks Carl the Commoner. "My armor is magically imbued to offer me greater protection" Says Eris the Cleric proudly.

With the variant, those magic items no longer exist. So then where are the bonuses coming from? What is the in-character explanation/fluff for the bonuses, since it's no longer a magic item? Let's look at the same conversation with the variant in place.

"Hey Eric the Cleric, how come those guys had such a hard time hitting you?" asks Carl the Commoner. "I'm not really sure, just because I guess" Says Eris the Cleric shrugging.

Getting the bonuses with magic items makes sense and is easily and simply explained, while getting those same bonuses 'just because' without the magic items doesn't make much sense, isn't as easily or simply explained, and breaks immersion a bit if a good explanation isn't found.

For a low magic setting I personally would much rather have the magic item system/rules be left alone, but give us lower starting wealth and a limit on how many magic items we can have. Yes the encounters will be more deadly, but everything would make sense from an in-character perspective and wouldn't break immersion.

Sorry if I seem a bit argumentative, but I wanted to hopefully explain my viewpoint a bit better. Know I'm probably being a bit close-minded about it and a little OCD with making sure I'm explaining my thoughts properly.

[Muse]

Holly Evermead

  "Once upon a time, magic was everywhere.  It protected our children, healed our sick, fed our hungry.  Something has gone wrong with the world.  I don't know what, or why, but I do know this.  The magic is still here, all around us.  We just need to look for it." 


    "See the  holly and the ivy?  Ever living, ever growing.  Thriving in the hottest summers, green on the coldest snow.  The blight itself can wither it, sometimes twist it, but it rises again, ever vital, ever changing. 
    "My mother named me Holly so i would remember this.  The coldest night must see dawn.  The brightest day fades to twilight.  Strength can fail, health can falter, but hope springs eternal."

Age      148
Birthday   17th of May
Height:      5’6”
Weight      100lbs
Measures   34”D, 22”, 28”
Skin:      Fair
Hair:      Silky silver tresses falling free to the backs of her knees. 
Eyes:      Wide aquamarine. 
Style:      Holy favors well kept light blue dresses, low in the bust, with short skirts.  Her belt and boots are darker blue with silver buckles.  Around her neck she wears a silver medallion in the form of a crescent moon.  Her most prized possesoins are her spellbook—the result of almost a century spent recovering the lost art of magic—and her blessed fox fur quiver, “Honeywine’s Covenant.” 


http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=765837

[Inerrant Lust]

Edit: Bad Math.

Well, the simple answer is for balance. Spellcasters are less reliant on magic items by default. Pure physical types have to rely on them much more. A wizard without magic items isn't as disadvantaged as a fighter or a rogue is.

The fluff answer? People are tougher and stronger and faster than they were a thousand years ago, mostly because they can no longer rely on fancy magic to protect them. Does this make sense for the various bonuses? Two out of the three. Natural Armor and even Enhancement (My skin's tougher and I know how to take a hit in the right place to avoid damage)... but less so for deflection.

LOST MY TRAIN OF THOUGHT AHEAD, FEEL FREE TO DISREGARD

Also, magic items are rarer because not only are spellcasters less powerful than they used to be, but there's also a hell of a let less of them. Less in a gross amount but also less proportionally. A thousand years ago, maybe 5% of the population had the capability of casting spells.. that's 500 million. Now, it's probably closer to 1%, which would be 3 million worldwide. If this planet was earth-sized... that would be 1.5 people per square mile, and 1 spellcaster per 100 square miles. Granted, if this were an exact copy of Earth and we took away ocean surface area, Antarctica, and say... 80% of the remaining land area for being inhospitable, that brings us to... about 27 people per square mile and 1 spell casters per 5 square miles. About the population density of present-day Mali overall.

There's a reason this is happening... but it's sort of a plot element. Granted, there is only so many reasons something like this could happen on a world-wide scale.

TRAIN OF THOUGHT BACK ON TRACK

However! You're right- The increased Point Buy reflects this 'toughening' to an extent.

It could be... that this is whatever power's left putting things back into the hands of heroes. Clerics continue to receive divine gifts and spells (albiet not at full historical potency) even when they can no longer hear their Gods or detect their presence.[/i] They are no longer being given divine power but drawing it from a source. The same could be true of these last effort heroes.

I was strongly considering the pros and cons of this variant and the game without it. If I dropped the variant, I wouldn't be inclined to make magic items any more common. As a result of that, some players might be underpowered in comparison to other members of the party. But then again, I'm always super anal and worrisome about balance and 'lore'.

I don't mind the argument, really. As for the conversation between Eric and Carl... there's a lot of things neither of them know. "Where do you get your spells? Dunno. Where did the magic go? Dunno. Why aren't we as fertile as we used to be? Dunno. Why do some of us come back from the dead, more often after they've died in the daylight? Dunno. How come some undead who die at night come back with the power to instantly purge other undead? Dunno."

On that last note, everyone occasionally sees blue eyes in a skull when they dream. It's strangely comforting.

[Ghostwheel]

"Hey Eric the Cleric, how come those guys had such a hard time hitting you?" asks Carl the Commoner.

I prefer to look at it a little differently. Let's take an example that *actually* challenges our verisimilitude.

"Hey Eric the Cleric, how come you can fall from that 200' cliff and be able to run at full speed afterwards?" asks Carl the Commoner. "Because I'm just that good," says Eric the Cleric proudly.

Now let's apply this to the variant.

"Hey Eric the Cleric, how come those guys had such a hard time hitting you?" asks Carl the Commoner. "Because I'm just that good," says Eric the Cleric proudly.

And without the variant...

"Hey Eric the Cleric, how come those guys had such a hard time hitting you?" asks Carl the Commoner. "Because I've got magical armor that protects me," says Eric the Cleric sheepishly. "If you wore it, you'd be as hard to hit as me. In fact, I have the agility of a barn and am as hard to hit despite being a seasoned adventurer who has faced dragons and abominations of such incredible might that they would turn you inside out soon as look at you. Despite that, I've barely learned a thing about protecting my self from bodily harm and without my armor and all the magic items that adorn me, I could be as easily struck as you."

See, that doesn't make sense to me. Beyond the balance bits where the variant is needed to allow for a more balanced playing field, the simplicity of creating a high-level character (how much time will you spend sifting through pages to spend all that gold you get?), and the iconic-ness of the magic items belonging to characters created with the variant ("Flaming Katana" vs. +2 Corrosive Shocking Merciful Bane Shortsword--and in how many books do people usually have more than a few notable items?) the variant makes sense when the bonuses are innate. Don't think of them as magic, just what everyone gets as part of their normal progression for being freakin' super heroes who can survive a fall from orbit and run off regardless of how hurt they are.

People are supernaturally skilled and strong. They are awesome because they are awesome, not because of their magic weapon or their armor. It's just that they are that good, since characters in Pathfinder very quickly outstrip almost anything a human being can do. ("Oh, I got run through by a sword (crit) by someone? Barely a scratch!") The variant simply continues that train of though, rather than veering off course and forcing you to be an 120 lbs weakling who can't take care of themselves when without a plethora of magic equipment. Plus, if you want to play Rambo, armed with nothing but your jungle knife, this variant lets you do that and stay relevant.

[Phaia]

Well GW here is a question for ya, based on your varient does a duid loose the AC and to hit bonus' when in wild form? I asked the GM [IrLust] but I am curious as to how you see this. Since by the rules in a polymorth the armor and its enchantments would not add to the wild form without a 'wild' aspect on the armor. As far as I can see there are no items that let a weapon enchantment be used on natural weapons as well...so even though its highly useful shifting to wild form [which my druid will use often] she would loose all the benifits gained... I would actaully perfer with a druid being able to buy magic items....druid vest...amulet of mighty fist.

Part of what I see is things like items that actaully help out the non caster....there are plenty of items that anyone can use that now are not aviable to people...example lens of detection...+5 to perception and cheap...and perceprtion is used more then any other skill...

also the way it is limits choices...i would much rather have that +3 armor enchantment as a +2 Wild enchantment...but lust is not using the parts that might allow that of the varient
Wild armor would really help her in wild form ...considering some of the shapes I may be limited to have a much lower ac...[ie based on how I am reading things there should be no elemental body allowwed in wild form]

I am looking at this. Limiting wands is another factor...limiting our choice in getting them...750gp for a level 1 spell with 50 uses can be very good, i could easy list 4-5 1st level druid spells that would be very useful to have on wands...

Btw Lust have you considered the changes in society with the inferitility. Any woman that has given birth to a child would be considered very valuable...a treasure in herself...
Also fishing has always been one of the key ways to provide food and should still be

Anyway I will work on my druid a bit more...still not sure I like the varient...it works well with very speaific classes...

phaia

[Videospirit]

Looking at the variant, The bonus to armor and weapons probably wouldn't apply, raw, if you did not have a weapon or armor to apply it to. You should be able to get "wild" armor as your least magic item(at +3 it would be able to apply to light or medium I believe, +5 wild heavy armor becomes available, if I'm understanding the pattern to this).

Also, since this is a 3.5 variant, not a pathfinder variant, do we ignore

Note that the increase to Intelligence from this variant, either from Enhancement bonuses or other ability bonuses, does not grant more skill points per level for future class levels or retroactively.

[Ghostwheel]

Well GW here is a question for ya, based on your varient does a duid loose the AC and to hit bonus' when in wild form? I asked the GM [IrLust] but I am curious as to how you see this. Since by the rules in a polymorth the armor and its enchantments would not add to the wild form without a 'wild' aspect on the armor. As far as I can see there are no items that let a weapon enchantment be used on natural weapons as well...so even though its highly useful shifting to wild form [which my druid will use often] she would loose all the benifits gained... I would actaully perfer with a druid being able to buy magic items....druid vest...amulet of mighty fist.

Looking at the variant, The bonus to armor and weapons probably wouldn't apply, raw, if you did not have a weapon or armor to apply it to. You should be able to get "wild" armor as your least magic item(at +3 it would be able to apply to light or medium I believe, +5 wild heavy armor becomes available, if I'm understanding the pattern to this).

Actually...

For example, a level 7 character would have a +1 Enhancement bonus to all attacks with a single weapon, even an unarmed or natural attack (attack and damage, as per a +2 weapon), +2 armor Enhancement bonus (as though whatever armor they wore had a +2 bonus--even if they're not wearing any, and this may apply to shields or armor, but not both)...

Bolded for reference--it applies even if you're not wearing anything, so it even helps the druid while shapeshifting or a monk. Also, I think we're simply not starting with much of the second half of the variant except for a single least item because the DM wants magic items to be rare--I'm sure we'll find more as we go.

And you can still apply the enhancement bonus to natural weapons--you'll need to split it up though if you want more than one to get use out of it, just like someone using two-weapon fighting would. For each one you split it to, the total bonus drops by just one, so at high levels you can have 3 +3 natural attacks or 2 +4 natural attacks, and so on. And Phaia, I think you mean a Monk's Robe, right? You can still totally find one as it's a lesser item, and we are able to use them at this level.

Part of what I see is things like items that actaully help out the non caster....there are plenty of items that anyone can use that now are not aviable to people...example lens of detection...+5 to perception and cheap...and perceprtion is used more then any other skill...

You can totally get that--it's a least item, so you could even get it right now no problem.

also the way it is limits choices...i would much rather have that +3 armor enchantment as a +2 Wild enchantment...but lust is not using the parts that might allow that of the varient
Wild armor would really help her in wild form ...considering some of the shapes I may be limited to have a much lower ac...[ie based on how I am reading things there should be no elemental body allowwed in wild form]

How do you figure that? Why wouldn't you be able to do elemental body? It's a class feature, not a spell, so it's not affected by the limited spell rules.

I am looking at this. Limiting wands is another factor...limiting our choice in getting them...750gp for a level 1 spell with 50 uses can be very good, i could easy list 4-5 1st level druid spells that would be very useful to have on wands...

That's a sticking point *nod* I wasn't able to think of a way to balance wands with the variant, as they basically give you infinite castings per day of spells stored in the wand. Same with staves--I'm open to suggestions though, do you have any?

Anyway I will work on my druid a bit more...still not sure I like the varient...it works well with very speaific classes...

I hope the above clarifications have made you feel more at-ease with it

Also, since this is a 3.5 variant, not a pathfinder variant, do we ignore <int increase giving more skill points>

That's up to the DM to make that call since, as you mentioned, we're playing Pathfinder. Though just for reference, that would give a wizard 15 skill points per level if they start with a 20 in Intelligence, and 16/level if they're Human or took it as their favored class bonus.

[Inerrant Lust]

Ah, I was mistaken before then, Phaia. Listen to Ghost Wheel.

[Videospirit]

That's up to the DM to make that call since, as you mentioned, we're playing Pathfinder. Though just for reference, that would give a wizard 15 skill points per level if they start with a 20 in Intelligence, and 16/level if they're Human or took it as their favored class bonus.

That's what a wizard who started with 20 int, put all his 4th level bonuses to int, had a +5 inherent bonus to int from wishes, and a +6 enhancement bonus from an item, would have had in pathfinder, and that's not even that unreasonable a thing for a wizard to do. Although you should clarify we're talking about a level 20 wizard.

At level 10 the wizard only has 11(12 if human) skill points/level in the variant.

[Inerrant Lust]

Hell, for the purposes of book-keeping, the intelligence bonus counts retroactively for skill points.

Worst comes to worst, I can raise DCs. Though I hope to include scenarios in which people have to get creative to solve problems.

[Ghostwheel]

It's not so much for the DC, it's more that we can be fully trained in more things. So a wizard could be fully trained (have max skills) in 15 different skills.

[Inerrant Lust]

That's what I meant... I'm not worried about you being able to make checks for your main focused skills... I'm worried about the whole party breezing through even when using their cross-class skills.

In any event;

This campaign will take start in the lands sometimes known as Loth Carnon/Sunon... the large area west of the Great Forest (on the right of the map)

The scale is... continental. The North arrow is bent for the curvature of the Earth.