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Author Topic: Oklahoma Vs. Satan  (Read 2284 times)

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Offline bubbyTopic starter

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Oklahoma Vs. Satan
« on: December 07, 2013, 09:03:14 PM »
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/12/06/oklahoma-satanic-temple-piece/

I love this, personally. Just as a SUCK IT statement.

Offline kylie

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Re: Oklahoma Vs. Satan
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2013, 11:11:06 PM »
         Amusing little article.  A little curious about the thread title (though it's fun)...  Is anyone formally contesting this already, or saying they will?

         I searched around a little and stumbled across a quote from one of the satanic leaders from 2010, when his group rented a community center for an exorcism (open to public viewing).  Not sure if this is part of the same network of churches or not, but...  Well, I really love how he phrased this.  I have no idea if he was being dead serious, bitingly sarcastic, or carrying off both at once.  Or maybe, I can't decide if it's inevitable that it would just do both depending on the audience --- and I'm amused to death that people would just have to deal with it.  Because sometimes reality is just that ironic and shit just needs to be said.

Quote from: James Hale, the Lord High Master of the Church of the IV Majesties (2010 to ABC News)

"We just decided that being right here in the middle of the Bible Belt, it wasn't a good idea to keep the secrecy you see in the traditional Satanist churches," he said. "Because secrecy breeds fear. And we're not looking to scare anyone."

« Last Edit: December 07, 2013, 11:12:34 PM by kylie »

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Re: Oklahoma Vs. Satan
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2013, 12:16:59 PM »
I think it was less of a 'trial title' (e.g. Brown vs. Board of Education) and more of an 'event title' (e.g. Hulk Hogan vs. Andre the Giant).  Everyone get your popcorn!

It seems to me that there are at least two different types of Satanists, though - the ones who are all 'Let's see what we can do to piss off the Christians', and those who have put more consideration into what they believe than that.  Not entirely sure about this group.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Oklahoma Vs. Satan
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2013, 03:02:00 PM »
I think it was less of a 'trial title' (e.g. Brown vs. Board of Education) and more of an 'event title' (e.g. Hulk Hogan vs. Andre the Giant).  Everyone get your popcorn!

It seems to me that there are at least two different types of Satanists, though - the ones who are all 'Let's see what we can do to piss off the Christians', and those who have put more consideration into what they believe than that.  Not entirely sure about this group.
[/quote

Would you consider the 'Hail Satin' types who are just looking to be dark and rebellious and dark into the first category, or do they get their own subgroup?

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Re: Oklahoma Vs. Satan
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2013, 03:23:49 PM »
If the sum total of their theology is 'I'm doing it to be dark and rebellious', then it's pretty much first branch.  If they're going with the idea that the original Satan was essentially the one that questioned YHVH and blind obedience (such as with Job and the temptation of Christ in the desert), then they're more second branch.

(Frankly, I think chiffon is far more evil than satin.  I mean, have you ever worked with the stuff?)

Offline kylie

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Re: Oklahoma Vs. Satan
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2013, 08:42:12 PM »
       Chiffon?  I must be satanic.  That stuff is often very cozy to wear.   :-)

        I don't see that putting up a monument is being done simply (or even mainly, on the face of it?) to upset the Christian groups.  Again, why are they the first or only ones to be claiming that space?  It's public space.  If I say we need a much broader and more flexible curriculum for comparative historical religions in the schools (say in social studies), it doesn't have to mean I'm thinking at that moment, "Yes, that'll annoy them."  I do happen to think we really could use one.

        As for other aspects of what the groups do or don't do, that may be another story.  But the monument can still have a good point in and of itself.  Though I imagine there must be at least a few opposed people quietly scurrying around looking for some supposedly "purely administrative or technical" grounds to block it, about now.

         

       
« Last Edit: December 08, 2013, 08:43:23 PM by kylie »

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Re: Oklahoma Vs. Satan
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2013, 08:51:14 PM »
Like I said, I haven't made up my mind about this particular group.  They might very well be of the second variety.

Online Blythe

Re: Oklahoma Vs. Satan
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2013, 08:54:52 PM »
I live in Oklahoma, and there's always been an issue with religion making it's way into places like the State Capitol grounds or courthouses. This is an amusing and cheeky way of poking at the fact that Oklahoma has had a terrible track record at separating church and state. Good for them for bringing it up.

Offline ShadowFox89

Re: Oklahoma Vs. Satan
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2013, 03:01:05 AM »
 Well, let's face it, Oklahoma needs something to put them into the news for the year.... Not much else goes on there.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Oklahoma Vs. Satan
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2013, 05:04:24 AM »
I think it was less of a 'trial title' (e.g. Brown vs. Board of Education) and more of an 'event title' (e.g. Hulk Hogan vs. Andre the Giant).  Everyone get your popcorn!

It seems to me that there are at least two different types of Satanists, though - the ones who are all 'Let's see what we can do to piss off the Christians', and those who have put more consideration into what they believe than that.  Not entirely sure about this group.

I remember hearing an interview with a Norwegian Satanist cult leader - this religious current is really strong in Norway, it ties in both with the black metal scene and with attempts to revive the faith of the Vikings. The guy noted how "some people engage in burning down churches and so on, but that I regard as highly un-Satanistic behaviour."  ;)

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Re: Oklahoma Vs. Satan
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2013, 06:25:47 AM »
I remember hearing an interview with a Norwegian Satanist cult leader - this religious current is really strong in Norway, it ties in both with the black metal scene and with attempts to revive the faith of the Vikings. The guy noted how "some people engage in burning down churches and so on, but that I regard as highly un-Satanistic behaviour."  ;)

But... Satan wasn't Nordic...  *head explodes*

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Oklahoma Vs. Satan
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2013, 06:48:06 AM »
But... Satan wasn't Nordic...  *head explodes*

I think some of them perceive the Vikings as kind of supermen, men who walked (or sailed) with destiny itself. And that kind of belief in your own lust and power would be, well, Satan's morals.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2013, 06:54:11 AM by gaggedLouise »

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Re: Oklahoma Vs. Satan
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2013, 06:52:29 AM »
Ah.  Nietzsche, I suppose.  *proceeds to give spell-check a coronary.*  Could at least do enough poking around in the Viking religions to find an appropriate counterpart.  *grumps pseudo-historically and goes off to listen to Led Zeppelin*

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Oklahoma Vs. Satan
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2013, 07:06:26 AM »
These guys were sort of an ideal Viking brotherhood who were the stuff of legend back in the day, and whose fame has survived to modern stories and live reenactments:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jomsvikings

The picture of them fighting in a hailstorm is very cool....The band and the fortress (at Wollin in modern Poland) seem to have existed allright, whether they really did fit this ultra-tough bill is a long-standing topic of historical debate.

Offline Tairis

Re: Oklahoma Vs. Satan
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2013, 07:27:50 PM »
I don't see why not at this point. Seems like stunts like this are the only way the other side is ever going to understand that the rules apply to everyone equally or not at all.

Also the chick in the meme is cute.

Offline Neysha

Re: Oklahoma Vs. Satan
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2013, 09:41:03 PM »
Not a big fan of trolling people in real life just to piss them off for pissing sake which seems like what is going on in the article IMHO.

Offline kylie

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Re: Oklahoma Vs. Satan
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2013, 05:28:14 PM »
Not a big fan of trolling people in real life just to piss them off for pissing sake which seems like what is going on in the article IMHO.
               Personally, I think tossing the word "troll" with all its internet airs of self-righteous mockery usually aimed at distant parties posting online, at an in the flesh group talking about a physical monument on state grounds, is kind of empty name-calling.  If I say something is "just obnoxious," is that going to shut everyone up by itself, without a reasoned argument?  I could probably find a few things then...

        I also think you might have an easier time arguing this particular article goes to some length to be irksome, than arguing the church in question is actually doing that. 

        Or, at the least, they may be doing some serious activism and you don't seem to like that the message bothers a few people.  Well, there are some people that get bothered about issues with no activism in sight anyway.  And then there are some things that are just messy.  So, tough luck if people can't stop being bothered whenever someone points it out.  It's their state, too and this is about public space.

         But see the other linked articles for some perhaps more even discussion...

"Unmasking Lucien Graves."
 
Quote from: Bugbee

VICE: Is the Satanic Temple a satanic, or a satirical group?
Doug: That is a common question. I say why can’t it be both? We are coming from a solid philosophy that we absolutely believe in and adhere to. This is Satanism, and to us it couldn’t be called anything other than Satanism. However, our metaphor of Satan is a literary construct inspired by authors such as Anatole France and Milton—a rebel angel defiant of autocratic structure and concerned with the material world. Satanism as a rejection of superstitious supernaturalism. This Satan, of course, bears no resemblance to the embodiment of all cruelty, suffering, and negativity believed in by some apocalyptic segments of Judeo-Christian culture. The word Satan has no inherent value. If one acts with compassion in the name of Satan, one has still acted with compassion. Our very presence as civic-minded socially responsible Satanists serves to satirize the ludicrous superstitious fears that the word Satan tends to evoke.

Reminds me of a darker version of the Yes Men.
Yes. Just as the Yes Men use very catching theatrical ploys to draw attention to a progressive agenda, we play upon people’s irrational fears in a way that hopefully causes them to reevaluate what they think they know, redefine arbitrary labels, and judge people for their concrete actions. I believe that where reason fails to persuade, satire and mockery prevail. Whereas many religious groups seem to eschew humor, we embrace it.

author=Downes, "... What Could Possibly Go Wrong?"]Mehta, "... What Could Possibly Go Wrong?"
Quote

We threaten to overturn a misguided sense of religious exceptionalism that has plagued the United States for a very long time. We promise to engage actively in political/cultural dialogues and re-assert religious pluralism. People who fear a challenge to the Judeo-Christian religiopolitical monopoly are correct to fear us. We assert that religion, at its best, is a narrative construct by which practitioners contextualize their lives. We believe that religious narrative should be malleable to conform to the best scientific evidence. We reject supernaturalism and strive to approach all things with reasonable agnosticism.


« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 05:29:39 PM by kylie »

Offline Neysha

Re: Oklahoma Vs. Satan
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2013, 10:15:05 AM »
I didn't realize I was telling you to shut up. :(

Fairly certain I was stating my opinion in the humblest manner possible.

I admit I was amused by your excessive verbiage but I apologize for inadvertantly trying to silence you and insulting you.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 10:16:24 AM by Neysha »

Offline kylie

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Re: Oklahoma Vs. Satan
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2013, 11:17:13 PM »
       Shrugs, I'm not a member of that church.  I didn't mean it was about me in particular. 

        It just struck me as kind of missing what they say they are about.  And I agree the article, in a sort of vaccuum as it were, is kind of working over hard to be provocative.  (Their choice of images is a little funny maybe, too.) 

       Just... "trolling" isn't a word I use about daily life very much.  I thought it was a word about internet culture, with a sort of connotation of 'nothing really matters anyway since we're just on the internet - but btw, I think you have no point except to bother someone.'  But if the question is what is the church or the issue at all, then you haven't said much to argue they don't, or can't, possibly have a good point in there.   
 
       All too often I think, when someone doesn't like the substance of something or can't be bothered to figure out what it has to do with them, it's common these days for people to resort to saying things along the lines of oh, they're just doing it to bother someone they don't like, or just doing it out of narcissism or to get attention.  It's too convenient because that can be thrown at just about anything that's released into the public somehow.  But the one doesn't preclude the other.  Even if it does happen to bother someone, it can still be useful or meaningful. 

     
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 11:20:07 PM by kylie »

Offline Valthazar

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Re: Oklahoma Vs. Satan
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2013, 11:28:51 PM »
All too often I think, when someone doesn't like the substance of something or can't be bothered to figure out what it has to do with them, it's common these days for people to resort to saying things along the lines of oh, they're just doing it to bother someone they don't like, or just doing it out of narcissism or to get attention.  It's too convenient because that can be thrown at just about anything that's released into the public somehow.  But the one doesn't preclude the other.  Even if it does happen to bother someone, it can still be useful or meaningful.

This is a matter of opinion though.  What someone else considers an act of narcissism, might be something you consider genuine.

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Re: Oklahoma Vs. Satan
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2013, 06:37:32 PM »
These satanist are lost children. They all ought to come into the sacred madness of lord Cthulhu! Who is willing to be baptized in waters of R'lyeh?! Have you heard the gospel of his son Lovecraft who came to earth, encouraged to sin and died for our curse of sanity?!

But all joking aside, this highlights something very important. I'm not too fond of satanists myself but if you want to have a society with true freedom of religion, you can't just shut down their institutions or ban it all together. It opens the doorway for more oppression and attempts to control thought via the government. Besides, we have all these monuments with Christian iconography as it is. Why not another religion?

Offline Neysha

Re: Oklahoma Vs. Satan
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2013, 07:30:42 PM »
Reinforcing narcissism and antipathy can be very useful and meaningful to a great many people I'm sure.

I won't say that the act in itself bothers me, though I do find it disrespectful since it seems to be rooted in, according to your links, simple anti-religious behavior and mockery. I think it'd be intriguing if Muslims or Jews or others wanted to add to or create their own Holiday imagery and public displays like Christians are, much like how we celebrate our diversity in other ways besides religion. But I personally frown upon being provocative for the simple sake of being provocative against something someone personally is against. I don't sympathize with such behavior and feel it doesn't do much to add to any interfaith (or lack thereof) dialogue. It sounds like they want a confrontation, preferably loud and public, not a discussion. I'd hate to offend any genuine 'Satanists' who take their Satanic beliefs and traditions seriously with this post of course, but so far I'm seeing a lack of sincerity I typically see with adherents of other faiths IMHO so far.

But I'm happy, I suppose, that they are exercising their rights in a country which protects their rights to act provocative or trollish to people they disagree with.  ???
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 07:32:12 PM by Neysha »

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Re: Oklahoma Vs. Satan
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2013, 08:12:21 PM »
As I mentioned before, there are genuine Satanists who have more thought invested in their belief system than 'trolling Christians'.  Usually, they come across as just a hair shy of agnostic/atheist/skeptic.  More often than not, Satan is more a symbol than an actual deity, referencing the Hebrew meaning of 'one who takes an adversarial role.'  (This is what I've gotten from actually talking to them, at any rate - and one can take an adversarial role without being trollish.)

Offline Neysha

Re: Oklahoma Vs. Satan
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2013, 08:39:43 PM »
As I mentioned before, there are genuine Satanists who have more thought invested in their belief system than 'trolling Christians'.  Usually, they come across as just a hair shy of agnostic/atheist/skeptic.  More often than not, Satan is more a symbol than an actual deity, referencing the Hebrew meaning of 'one who takes an adversarial role.'  (This is what I've gotten from actually talking to them, at any rate - and one can take an adversarial role without being trollish.)

So is the main focus of genuinely religious Satanists of this vein to take an adversarial role against the established religion of their choosing while not actually engaging in any form of worship?

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Re: Oklahoma Vs. Satan
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2013, 08:51:11 PM »
So is the main focus of genuinely religious Satanists of this vein to take an adversarial role against the established religion of their choosing while not actually engaging in any form of worship?

Not necessarily. Luciferians and certain other theistic satanist sects tend to get a fair bit more philosophical than that. Trying to pin point central dogma beyond worshiping or revering satan in some fashion and challenging other more established groups is about the only thing they have in common.