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Author Topic: Transgender Bathroom Use Debate Emerges In Arizona  (Read 1055 times)

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Offline LunaTopic starter

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Offline Oniya

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Re: Transgender Bathroom Use Debate Emerges In Arizona
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2013, 10:38:13 AM »
Okay, here's what we do:  Eliminate the 'bathroom' entirely.  Have a row of full doors that open onto single unisex toilets (with an appropriate number sized for wheelchair access), and a bank of sinks and a long mirror across the hall.  On top of being gender-friendly, we'll be able to see who doesn't wash their hands after using the restroom.  There can be side rooms for diaper changes and nursing.

Offline GypsyRose

Re: Transgender Bathroom Use Debate Emerges In Arizona
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2013, 10:42:24 AM »
Another politician wasting time on a grandiose gesture to solve a non-problem that they believe will divert attention from the fiscal mess that politicians have worked so diligently to create.


Offline Koren

Re: Transgender Bathroom Use Debate Emerges In Arizona
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2013, 10:48:11 AM »
Okay I am all for neutral gender bathrooms, completely for it, think it would be a great thing for society, would be so very happy to use one and see people use one and have the next generation grow up getting over the divide of 'girls are like this and boys are like this', even if we would have to fix a lot of problems in society to be able to use them properly - highlighting this so people dont kick me out for what im about to say
I am also for the idea, and this may be unpopular opinion, that in this day and age, right now when trans isnt the most obvious thing to some people, and we dont have the social capacity to do away with social gender all together, that if you dont look like a female dont use the female bathroom and visa versa, Im not talking about your sex, im talking about expression, because in the current day people will be uncomfortable with having a man who looks very much like a man walking into the female bathroom, its just the way society is right now. And yes I get that that awkwardness and this view is seen as being part of the problem, but to be honest, you cant change shit like that over night, you have to change the mental perception before you can safely change physical behavior.

But to base it entirely off someone biological sex, to base it off a birth certificate which is in no way an indication of who you are, and to threaten JAIL time, six months of jail, for breaking that, is truely rediculous. Its wrong on so many levels and completely transphobic. I do quite like the way that Briar Rose said it though

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Transgender Bathroom Use Debate Emerges In Arizona
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2013, 10:57:32 AM »
Another politician wasting time on a grandiose gesture to solve a non-problem that they believe will divert attention from the fiscal mess that politicians have worked so diligently to create.
Not just solve a non-problem, but exacerbate a real problem. This is nothing short of disgusting.

Credit where credit is due: Points to Huffington for actually getting the pronouns right when talking about a trans person. It's sad that this is noteworthy, but...

Offline Mathim

Re: Transgender Bathroom Use Debate Emerges In Arizona
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2013, 11:56:38 AM »
Why is it always Arizona doing this stuff? It's not like the heat isn't a big enough reason for people not to want to live there. LOL.

Offline Missy

Re: Transgender Bathroom Use Debate Emerges In Arizona
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2013, 06:13:13 PM »
Prettymuch agreeing with everyone here on the sheer idiocy and transphobia of this affair.

I've heard rumors of East Asian restrooms which are instead of segregated rooms, but segregated stalls. Everyone uses the same room, but some stalls are designated for males and some for females. Kind of similar to Oniya's suggestion. I don't know if that's the right answer, but it sounds to me like a step in the right direction.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Transgender Bathroom Use Debate Emerges In Arizona
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2013, 06:54:28 PM »
Prettymuch agreeing with everyone here on the sheer idiocy and transphobia of this affair.

I've heard rumors of East Asian restrooms which are instead of segregated rooms, but segregated stalls. Everyone uses the same room, but some stalls are designated for males and some for females. Kind of similar to Oniya's suggestion. I don't know if that's the right answer, but it sounds to me like a step in the right direction.
The question is... why bother segregating at all, especially once you're to that point?

Offline Rhapsody

Re: Transgender Bathroom Use Debate Emerges In Arizona
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2013, 07:02:15 PM »
As my Facebook status currently says:

"For a handful of people to make everyone else uncomfortable just makes no sense." - Arizona Rep. John Kavanagh (R).

Does this mean, sir, that you'll be stepping down from your state seat, because as an intolerant loudmouth, you make everyone else uncomfortable?

Offline Missy

Re: Transgender Bathroom Use Debate Emerges In Arizona
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2013, 07:44:07 PM »
The question is... why bother segregating at all, especially once you're to that point?

Good question, mostly I was presenting the concept as I understood it was explained to me. Oniya's thought was probably the better.

But it begs the question: Why do we segregate public restrooms?

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Transgender Bathroom Use Debate Emerges In Arizona
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2013, 07:47:57 PM »
Good question, mostly I was presenting the concept as I understood it was explained to me. Oniya's thought was probably the better.

But it begs the question: Why do we segregate public restrooms?
To be perfectly honest? Because it's just assumed that men and women need separate spaces for bodily functions. That's about it.

Offline Missy

Re: Transgender Bathroom Use Debate Emerges In Arizona
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2013, 07:52:21 PM »
To be perfectly honest? Because it's just assumed that men and women need separate spaces for bodily functions. That's about it.

A bit of modesty I think too, with the urinals I mean. Get rid of urinals though and it's not a problem anymore. To be perfectly honest as a cisman, many urinals make me uncomfortable, especially when there's no divider to provide you the comfort of a little privacy about your genitals. Too often I find men's rooms without dividers and really that's just a lack of courtesy in my honest opinion.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Transgender Bathroom Use Debate Emerges In Arizona
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2013, 08:23:05 PM »
If you think about it, we're taught at home to close the door when we use the bathroom.  Then, suddenly, men are confronted with 'pee in front of everyone!' with the public restroom setup.  The only reason that my local males have been able to suggest to me is that you can get more urinals without dividers into a given space than you can toilets with dividers. 

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Transgender Bathroom Use Debate Emerges In Arizona
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2013, 08:24:31 PM »
If you think about it, we're taught at home to close the door when we use the bathroom.  Then, suddenly, men are confronted with 'pee in front of everyone!' with the public restroom setup.  The only reason that my local males have been able to suggest to me is that you can get more urinals without dividers into a given space than you can toilets with dividers.
Except that men's bathroom etiquette dictates that at most (N/2)+1 out of N urinals will be in use unless there's decent spacing and dividers anyway.

Offline kylie

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Re: Transgender Bathroom Use Debate Emerges In Arizona
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2013, 09:05:18 PM »
     It was about a decade ago when I was last in China, but there were some rustic bathrooms that were simply shared among everyone.  And no stalls.  Wall troughs and long squat rows.  Take your pick.  It was not exactly Timbuktu either, but a small Han (less touristy) stop along the Great Wall.   :P

     Yeah guys fuss about "modesty" in their bathrooms and therefore go through this ritual of not standing adjacent to anyone if they can help it, while pretending to be all proud about not going too far out of their way...  The old joke.  But I think some portion of that is often based on some general homophobia floating around (whether it's explicit or quiet and internalized in each case, doesn't make much difference here).  And that in turn, is often itself part of a going discomfort with trans among cis/straight men.  So we're back to the initial problem. 

Wouldn't want to brush anyone's side by accident, flick those eyes to the side to make sure no one's glancing too much at yours...  Oh, or were they just glancing to make sure you're not looking too much? what a conundrum!...      ::)


Offline Missy

Re: Transgender Bathroom Use Debate Emerges In Arizona
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2013, 09:21:27 PM »
I don't think it's homophobic, but I don't like men, of any orientation, seeing my genitals.

That doesn't mean there aren't men out there who are homophobic about it, but that that sense of modesty alone isn't homophobic alone, in my opinion.


On another note, personally I don't mind some flirtations by homosexual men, so long as they don't make reference to my ass. Just a bit of a quirk for me, I'm completely fine with homosexual gentlemen.

Offline kylie

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Re: Transgender Bathroom Use Debate Emerges In Arizona
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2013, 09:29:05 PM »
Quote from: Koren
...if you dont look like a female dont use the female bathroom and visa versa, Im not talking about your sex, im talking about expression
 
      I'm skeptical that it would be resolved so easily.  By "expression" do you mean chest shape, quantity and artfulness (or lack) of makeup, amount of plastic surgery to make sure the facial curves appear smooth or angular?  What if someone (MtF) just can't seem to mask that Adam's apple, or can't get the voice training right?  To be fair, I don't know exactly how doctors and psychologists are ruling on who "should" be allowed to have hormones these days, but I do know there is quite some controversy about the whole business of limiting access and then 'grading' the subjects through a legal and medical monitoring process.  Self-policing really isn't much different.  One always ends up needing to guess which guidelines, what community standards to figure out if they're passing or not.  (Or "community," because there are obviously a few competing trends here.) 

     That's what the initial problem was, someone -- crudely but surely -- wanting to say, use these guidelines and not those.  There's really a limit to how much anyone can anticipate what passes (or "fails"), when their very being cuts across so many different received traditions, in one way or another.  Not such a problem for those who are closer to more conventions; they don't have to look over their shoulders, anyway.  Closer to impossible for others. 

    Also, you may say this is just to smooth things out for the trans, but if we attempt to smooth things over "for trans people's own good" by making it a matter of trans etiquette to watch out for "what passes," in fact it isn't just about trans already.   Really, whenever we start to say one group should pass to get something, it actually implies an expectation that all sorts of people keep limiting themselves carefully to keep whatever they're currently getting, too. 

    What about that cis-girl who smeared her makeup?  The Hawaiian girl with big knobby bones?  The medical-female self-identified rugrat-tomboy with the tommish hair?  Is it even true that they are fitting in, and not being bullied or getting part of much the same controversy?  Or are we just not paying attention because no, trans are this "new" problem and it's up to trans to watch out and quietly, carefully avoid any sort of friction and thus prove themselves the latest model minority?


Offline Ephiral

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Re: Transgender Bathroom Use Debate Emerges In Arizona
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2013, 09:32:23 PM »
There's also the small problem of people like me, who are aiming at a deliberately androgynous expression. I can't exactly just not pee any more. Sorry, Koren, I think you're off-base on this one. The "simple solution" is desegregation and legal protection of gender identity.

Offline kylie

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Re: Transgender Bathroom Use Debate Emerges In Arizona
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2013, 09:59:28 PM »
I don't think it's homophobic, but I don't like men, of any orientation, seeing my genitals.

That doesn't mean there aren't men out there who are homophobic about it, but that that sense of modesty alone isn't homophobic alone, in my opinion.

     Yes.  I said "part" of that -- meaning in an amorphous community sense, as it's a community policy question -- can be homophobia.  When I was growing up, it was a fairly substantial part if you listened to the locker room talk at all.  I wasn't claiming to dissect you personally. 

     That being said though...  I also think it's hard to disentangle what is "just" modesty or what is "just" a kink from some other things that are pretty thick in the cultural air.  (Doesn't mean we can't try, whether in fun or serious ways.)  Examples:  Why don't I trust guys more widely, in general?  Even, why don't I identify as just bi, more than curious to flexible?  Can I say objectively, it's because I was "wired" to fall at one Kinsey point and not another this year?  That, and "absolutely" not because there's a lot of anti-gay rhetoric out there?  However would I know?  Nah, I can't say quite that much.  Some of it is "more" down to gender preference, but that doesn't exist in a vacuum, either...  Is it only because I have noticed so many unkempt, competitive jerks and I'm not built or "disposed" (what a word!) to roll with that so I get cautious...  Or is it some homophobia too?  Could I really figure it out?  I dunno, but I doubt it...

      It doesn't mean one can't be modest, or can't be kinky for that matter.  Point being rather: We shouldn't necessarily assume that everything about one or another formula for "modesty" or whatever other familiar "community" boundary -- when deciding a group course -- is beyond question, as if it were some Darwinian point of evolution.  It may be sheltering some bias (by whoever, and whatever history) against trans to begin with. 

Offline SinXAzgard21

Re: Transgender Bathroom Use Debate Emerges In Arizona
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2013, 10:28:25 PM »

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Transgender Bathroom Use Debate Emerges In Arizona
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2013, 10:37:08 PM »
I saw this on Facebook and thought it would fit in.

http://www.kgw.com/news/Grant-High-converts-restrooms-for-transgendered-students-199619831.html
That's... pretty damn awesome. And predictably, the comments are full of hateful bile, a significant chunk of which is based in religion.

Offline SinXAzgard21

Re: Transgender Bathroom Use Debate Emerges In Arizona
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2013, 10:39:10 PM »
That's... pretty damn awesome. And predictably, the comments are full of hateful bile, a significant chunk of which is based in religion.

Yeah, but did you honestly not expect that?

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Transgender Bathroom Use Debate Emerges In Arizona
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2013, 10:41:28 PM »
Yeah, but did you honestly not expect that?
Hence "predictably". It's just depressing that it's so damn predictable. *hugs his awesomely progressive city*

Offline SinXAzgard21

Re: Transgender Bathroom Use Debate Emerges In Arizona
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2013, 10:43:40 PM »
Hence "predictably". It's just depressing that it's so damn predictable. *hugs his awesomely progressive city*

Yeah, people just can't accept others for who they are.  My dad is one of them sadly.  I'm glad progress is being made, though slow, it is still progress. 

Offline DarklingAlice

Re: Transgender Bathroom Use Debate Emerges In Arizona
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2013, 11:57:07 PM »
This is just one of those conversations I never want to have again. How has enough of our society managed to stay so emotionally stunted that they have the restroom politics of first graders? What annoys me the most is when a place has single person restrooms...and feels the need to install two of them and divide them by sex.