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Author Topic: Obama puts pressure on Great Britain not to leave the EU.  (Read 2236 times)

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Offline MonfangTopic starter

Obama puts pressure on Great Britain not to leave the EU.
« on: February 23, 2013, 09:57:35 PM »
"The United States should not police the world!"

That was the slogan for many people when the US moves to support a rebellion or strike down a dictator. That the US has no right to poke their nose into the affairs of others. Yet, I don't see it being used for Obama when he made similar actions and I don't see it as of yet for this, outright attempting to sway politics in one of the United State's greatest friends.

If we want to discuss the merits and penalties of Great Britain leaving the EU, that can be spoken of in another thread. However, this is not for that. This is for asking ourselves if we really have a right to tell other countries what they are to do. Even if it is, "in the American interest" as Obama put it, it isn't our place to tell others how to lead their country unless they are outright killing them. And all the current UK Prime Minister David Cameron is offering should he be re-elected is to hold an in-or-out vote before the end of 2017. This means that he would give it to the people of England to decide if they stay with the EU or leave.

The United State Government should be supporting such a choice. Nothing is more free than a government to take an issue they could easily decide themselves without a word from the citizens and give it to the People to decide for themselves. But because it is not in 'our' interest, Obama thinks he should tell the British that they can do something that apparently enough of them want to do. I'm not from England, I don't live in Britain, I don't have ready access to the news on their country. However, I do believe I share one thing with our friends across the pond.

I hate it when nosy neighbors tell me I can't leave the Neighborhood Association.

A message to my fellow Englishman Roleplayers.. I'm sorry. He'll only be in office for a few more years. Maybe our next President will be more respectful and won't send the Queen an Ipod full of him talking and tell you what you can and can't do... I hope.

Source: www breitbart com/Big-Peace/2013/02/20/Obama-supports-EU-s-totalitarian-social-project

So, does Obama have a right to tell England they can't leave the EU? It isn't like he honestly can do anything about it, but it is a matter of respect, is it not? How would we feel if their Prime Minister told us we shouldn't do something that would only effect us?

I know there is a lot of room to wonder off, but for the most part lets keep it focused on Obama putting pressure on England.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2013, 08:23:45 AM by Vekseid »

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Obama puts pressure on Great Britain not to leave the EU.
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2013, 10:11:24 PM »
Seriously? You're trolling this forum from Breitbart? Seriously.

Offline MonfangTopic starter

Re: Obama puts pressure on Great Britain not to leave the EU.
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2013, 10:25:16 PM »
Seriously? You're trolling this forum from Breitbart? Seriously.
You have a news source that contradicts on what Obama says?

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Obama puts pressure on Great Britain not to leave the EU.
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2013, 10:31:11 PM »
I'm just wondering why you felt the need to filter it to this forum through a site with a known right-wing slant instead of just linking the actual BBC story. (Besides which, your over-the-top rhetoric about Obama "policing the world" doesn't look at all relevant to the story to me.)

Oh, and by the way? Yes, states and leaders have the right to tell each other what they perceive their interests to be. Not a lot of diplomacy would get done if this did not happen.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2013, 10:41:43 PM by Cyrano Johnson »

Offline MonfangTopic starter

Re: Obama puts pressure on Great Britain not to leave the EU.
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2013, 10:57:53 PM »
I'm just wondering why you felt the need to filter it to this forum through a site with a known right-wing slant instead of just linking the actual BBC story. (Besides which, your over-the-top rhetoric about Obama "policing the world" doesn't look at all relevant to the story to me.)
I didn't say Obama is policing the world, I am wondering why it isn't being spoken of in this situation.

And I said I didn't have any sources that spoke of it other than this and I didn't have access to news sources outside the US.

Do you have any opinion on what is going on aside from my choice of sources?

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Obama puts pressure on Great Britain not to leave the EU.
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2013, 11:07:33 PM »
I am wondering why it isn't being spoken of in this situation.

Oh, there's a simple answer to that: because the only people who feel the need to recklessly accuse Obama of oppressing the British by simply stating his country's interests are right-wing American partisans, who inhabit a world and media establishment entirely of their own.

I kind of feel like you might already know that, though.

Quote
I didn't have access to news sources outside the US.

Really? You're not posting this on the Internet? You've never heard of Google? That seems awfully odd to me.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2013, 11:11:37 PM by Cyrano Johnson »

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Obama puts pressure on Great Britain not to leave the EU.
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2013, 11:24:50 PM »
I didn't say Obama is policing the world, I am wondering why it isn't being spoken of in this situation.

And I said I didn't have any sources that spoke of it other than this and I didn't have access to news sources outside the US.

Do you have any opinion on what is going on aside from my choice of sources?

So it's okay for our allies to criticize our choices but we can't reciprocate? The president is entitled to his opinion, as as the heads of government in the EU. Me personally? I'm not sure it's a wise move.. the folks of the UK are more economically entwiined with the EU and it will greatly harm their economy to just .. jump ship. 

Offline MonfangTopic starter

Re: Obama puts pressure on Great Britain not to leave the EU.
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2013, 11:31:14 PM »
Oh, there's a simple answer to that: because the only people who feel the need to recklessly accuse Obama of oppressing the British by simply stating his country's interests are right-wing American partisans, who inhabit a world and media establishment entirely of their own.

I kind of feel like you might already know that, though.
I.. What? I never once suggested he was 'oppressing' them.

Lets try to get this back on topic, please?

Are you ok and in support of him telling the British Government that they should not let the British People have an in-or-out vote on whether to stay in the EU?

That is the core of this. All that PM Cameron wants to do is take it out of the hand of politicians and give it to the people of England. Should it not be they who decide, in a democratic nation, what should happen in this situation? Is Obama really saying he doesn't want the People of England to vote on an issue they apparently care greatly for?

So it's okay for our allies to criticize our choices but we can't reciprocate? The president is entitled to his opinion, as as the heads of government in the EU. Me personally? I'm not sure it's a wise move.. the folks of the UK are more economically entwiined with the EU and it will greatly harm their economy to just .. jump ship. 
I haven't heard as of late of any ally criticizing us or telling us that we as citizens can't vote on an issue like this. Unless you mean Netanyahu who is trying to protect his people against those who want to kill them.

And according to what I read there is apparently a strong push to separate from the EU in Britain and Cameron as brought up numbers that say it is hurting them so they believe that economicly it is bad for them to stay with the EU.

PS: THANK YOU for asking something on topic.

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Obama puts pressure on Great Britain not to leave the EU.
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2013, 11:46:51 PM »
Are you ok and in support of him telling the British Government that they should not let the British People have an in-or-out vote on whether to stay in the EU?

Like I said in my second post: "Yes, states and leaders have the right to tell each other what they perceive their interests to be. Not a lot of diplomacy would get done if this did not happen."

The reason I brought up accusations of "oppression" is that your shrill tone and choice of words indicates an attempt to portray Obama as having ordered the British not to have a referendum. Which really has nothing to do with the actual story.

However, you're quite right: I should do more than just complain about the spring of the astroturf. Forbes has an interesting analysis of the British-exit business and what's driving it.

Offline Scribbles

Re: Obama puts pressure on Great Britain not to leave the EU.
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2013, 11:59:56 PM »
Thanks for the link to Forbes, Cyrano. That was an interesting read. I hope they're right as I'd really like to see the EU work.

Offline MonfangTopic starter

Re: Obama puts pressure on Great Britain not to leave the EU.
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2013, 12:32:45 AM »
I want anything that seeks to do good work, however I don't believe that when a country wants to leave it should be told by another country who has no direct stakes in the event that it should not have a public vote on the issue.

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Obama puts pressure on Great Britain not to leave the EU.
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2013, 12:38:40 AM »
I hope they're right as I'd really like to see the EU work.

Me too.

I want anything that seeks to do good work, however I don't believe that when a country wants to leave it should be told by another country who has no direct stakes in the event that it should not have a public vote on the issue.

Why are you just repeating the same thing over and over?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2013, 12:40:20 AM by Cyrano Johnson »

Offline MonfangTopic starter

Re: Obama puts pressure on Great Britain not to leave the EU.
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2013, 12:41:53 AM »
Why are you just repeating the same thing over and over?
Because I am waiting for it to click that a democratically elected president is telling a different democratic country that they can not have a democratic vote on a national issue because he doesn't like what they are voting on.

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Obama puts pressure on Great Britain not to leave the EU.
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2013, 12:45:47 AM »
Because I am waiting for it to click that a democratically elected president is telling a different democratic country that they can not have a democratic vote on a national issue because he doesn't like what they are voting on.

Yes, but simply repeating your own idiosyncratic version of events doesn't make your version true, Monfang. Obama stating US interests does not and cannot amount to ordering them not to have a referendum; those are simply different things, despite your attempts to obscure that difference.


Offline Scribbles

Re: Obama puts pressure on Great Britain not to leave the EU.
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2013, 12:51:31 AM »
Monfang,

I disagree, I feel it's important for a country to take an active part in international affairs and not be afraid to voice their opinion. Also, as Cyrano said, the US isn't ordering anyone around. They've actually gone so far as to reassure Britain that they will remain on good terms no matter what happens with the EU.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Obama puts pressure on Great Britain not to leave the EU.
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2013, 12:58:37 AM »
Yes, but simply repeating your own idiosyncratic version of events doesn't make your version true, Monfang. Obama stating US interests does not and cannot amount to ordering them not to have a referendum; those are simply different things, despite your attempts to obscure that difference.

Thank you.. that is what I was looking to say. Lots of commentary like this goes back and forth. I know the French, Italians and Germans (not to mention Spanish) leadership were all critical of MANY things the president's acitons when I was based in Spain in 05. LOTS of commentary all the time.

Offline MonfangTopic starter

Re: Obama puts pressure on Great Britain not to leave the EU.
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2013, 01:21:39 AM »
Yes, but simply repeating your own idiosyncratic version of events doesn't make your version true, Monfang. Obama stating US interests does not and cannot amount to ordering them not to have a referendum; those are simply different things, despite your attempts to obscure that difference.
How does it look like to them? He might not be taking action or saying so many words, but he's basically saying 'I don't think that is a good idea, I think you shouldn't pass this on to the public and just stay in the EU, even if the public disagrees. It's in the United State's best interest if you do.' And this isn't leaving a good impression:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/obama-administration-warns-britain-to-stay-in-the-european-union-8444789.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jan/09/us-warns-uk-european-union

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/nilegardiner/100194911/barack-obama-lectures-britain-on-eu-membership-the-us-president-looks-arrogant-as-well-as-clueless/

Quote
British policy on Europe is frankly none of Washington’s business. Barack Obama and Joe Biden are an irrelevance when it comes to Britain’s decision on whether or not to remain in the European Union. The White House’s silly attempt to intervene on such a highly sensitive matter for the British electorate may please Downing Street, but it certainly won’t play well in Middle England. President Obama’s views on the EU are as relevant to British voters as the futile ranting of Herman Van Rompuy or Jose Manuel Barroso, and will only serve to reinforce the determination of millions of Britons to throw off the shackles of Brussels.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/4735909/Barack-Obama-Britain-should-stay-in-EU.html

If I was from Britain, I would be horribly offended at what the Administration said. However, I'm an American, so I'm only horribly embarrassed.

Cyrano, this isn't like a country wanting to go to war. This isn't like a country wanting to raise terrifs that would effect US Trade. This is a country that believes that being in the EU is dangerous for their economy and wants to be free from the laws in the EU that overshadow their own. And they want to do it by first renegotiating their agreement with the EU and if that fails to pass it to the public for them to decide what happens next.

Monfang,

I disagree, I feel it's important for a country to take an active part in international affairs and not be afraid to voice their opinion. Also, as Cyrano said, the US isn't ordering anyone around. They've actually gone so far as to reassure Britain that they will remain on good terms no matter what happens with the EU.
You have a point, but this could have been done in such a better way. Instead of making this about American interests, it should have focused on British interests. They should have listed the benefits of them remaining with the EU but instead said that it is what they (the Obama Administration) want and that's that.

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Obama puts pressure on Great Britain not to leave the EU.
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2013, 01:33:07 AM »
How does it look like to them?

Depends on which "them" you mean. If the "them" is the blogger who comprises your second-last link, I'd tell them the same thing I've told you: they're confusing a statement of interests with "intervention," and that's dumb. The other links report the event entirely neutrally. [EDIT: Snark about whether you read your own links removed, since I just had to edit this post for mistakenly calling your last link an "opinion columnist." However, the point that most of the links you provided don't support the image that you just tried to claim that they support stands.]

Quote
Cyrano, this isn't like a country wanting to go to war. [etc]
*

So what? Countries do talk about things other than wars and trade tariffs, you know. And have opinions about each others' handling of certain issues. That has nothing to do with whether your shrill rhetoric about this incident is valid in any way (far as I can see, it just isn't).

(* Actually? Pulling one of Europe's three largest economies out of the EU would be of global economic significance, so in terms of impact, the change being contemplated here is as radical as you can get short of a war or revolution, and pretending that nobody else "has a stake in it" is clueless. But leave that aside.)
« Last Edit: February 24, 2013, 01:39:28 AM by Cyrano Johnson »

Offline MonfangTopic starter

Re: Obama puts pressure on Great Britain not to leave the EU.
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2013, 01:40:09 AM »
(* Actually? Pulling one of Europe's three largest economies out of the EU would be of global economic significance, so in terms of impact, the change being contemplated here is as radical as you can get short of a war or revolution, and pretending that nobody else "has a stake in it" is clueless. But leave that aside.)

Actually? The three of the most prosperous nations per capita in Europe are Switzerland, Norway, and Liechtenstein who are not in the EU and this would not effect trade between Britain and other nations. But yes, this is derailing the topic of whether or not the Obama Administration should be offending our allies by telling them not to do something because it's not in their (Obama's) best interests.

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Obama puts pressure on Great Britain not to leave the EU.
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2013, 01:50:11 AM »
Actually? The three of the most prosperous nations per capita in Europe

Are not necessarily its three largest economies, and your claim that "this would not effect [sic] trade between Britain and other nations" is pure unsubstantiated assertion.

Quote
this is derailing the topic of whether or not the Obama Administration should be offending our allies

One blogger does not constitute "your allies," Monfang. Your continued shrillness doesn't look less silly the more you repeat and repeat.

Offline MonfangTopic starter

Re: Obama puts pressure on Great Britain not to leave the EU.
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2013, 01:53:07 AM »
One blogger does not constitute "your allies," Monfang. Your continued shrillness doesn't look less silly the more you repeat and repeat.
Um.. I said 'our' as in America's. And Allies as in Britain.

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Obama puts pressure on Great Britain not to leave the EU.
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2013, 02:12:27 AM »
Um.. I said 'our' as in America's. And Allies as in Britain.

I know what you said. You need more than a handful of Britons to hang the opinion on.

Offline MonfangTopic starter

Re: Obama puts pressure on Great Britain not to leave the EU.
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2013, 02:21:48 AM »
I know what you said. You need more than a handful of Britons to hang the opinion on.

Quote
Among Tory supporters, 56 percent would vote to leave, and even 37 percent of Labour voters and 35 percent of Liberal Democrats would opt to get out of the EU as well. If “don’t knows” are included in the survey, 40 percent of Britons would vote to leave, 37 percent would stay, and 23 percent are undecided.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/nilegardiner/100199825/53-percent-of-british-voters-want-to-leave-the-eu-barack-obama-and-david-cameron-should-take-note/

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article3667906.ece

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Obama puts pressure on Great Britain not to leave the EU.
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2013, 03:11:15 AM »
The opinion of offense at Obama's remarks, Monfang. Not being in favour of leaving the EU. They're different things, and I know you knew what I was talking about.

Offline MonfangTopic starter

Re: Obama puts pressure on Great Britain not to leave the EU.
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2013, 03:23:52 AM »
The opinion of offense at Obama's remarks, Monfang. Not being in favour of leaving the EU. They're different things, and I know you knew what I was talking about.
Actually, I didn't.

But here we have numbers that show that at the current state, the English people want to leave the EU. While the Prime Minister wants to try and renegotiate to get some of the pressures from the EU off of England, the Obama Administration has spoke out against both actions because, as his administration said, it isn't in America's interest.

To put this into context, this is as if a man from a different neighborhood came over to the house of a different neighborhood and told the homeowner"It's not in my best interest for you to leave your neighborhood association." This after the homeowner's family told him of the problem the neighborhood association was causing them.