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Author Topic: Alabama has done it again  (Read 2517 times)

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Offline TheWildcatTopic starter

Alabama has done it again
« on: November 18, 2012, 09:30:04 AM »
When the health care law passed, the first thing that happened was the attorney general of Alabama led the AG's of a number of other states to file suit to block it. After that, for the most part, failed, what happened? On election day, Alabama did what they have done best for the past hundred years: they shot Uncle Sam the bird. Amendment 6 was on the ballot, and it read "An amendment to the constitution of the state of Alabama prohibiting any person or corporation in this state from being required to participate in any mandatory health care program- yes or no?" It would ultimately pass, and now it's only a matter of time before another legal battle on the same issue is fought. My question is this: am I wrong in thinking that the amendment that says "the Federal Government's passage of a lawc shall not render ineffective a previously enacted state law" is not retroactive, and that Alabama basically just pulled another George Wallace?

Offline Lux12

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Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2012, 01:13:16 PM »
You would be right and those who bought into it were convinced by buzz words and fears of conspiracies created in the propaganda factories of the GOP.It also lowers my confidence in the southern voter in general.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2012, 01:35:24 PM »
I've only lived in Alabama for about six months now, but the more I know about it, the more I have respect for their legal system. It could use improvement, like any other state, but currently their forensics ability is unparalleled (which is why I'm here) in the US. Especially with cutting-edge digital forensics. Backwards, indeed.

Alabama is only one of at least five states to have anti-ACA legislation on the ballot. The various ballot questions show a serious lack of understanding of the ACA and how it will implement. There are many questions about the ACA and how it will effect the everyday person. Pretty much every single US citizen outside of Massachusetts is asking themselves, "How will this affect me?" These ballot questions are an extension of that question.

Alabama is not the only one to have passed ballot measures at odds with federal regulations. Three states famously legalized marijuana, and the legal fight between the federal government and the state governments over that will also cost money. If you'd like to talk about backwards, you might take a look at Oklahoma's ballot measure that bans affirmative action. Or you could talk about the various states that had voter ID laws on their ballot. Every state has its quirks.

So before you single out Alabama and decide that it's a bunch of hicks, maybe you could take a little bit of a more balanced look at how fucked up some of the ballot measures were across the country, and how taken as a whole it's pretty clear that people are uneasy, unsettled, and reacting to a nationwide lack of appropriate education about what these national reforms mean for the everyman.

Offline TheWildcatTopic starter

Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2012, 01:44:08 PM »
You make a very valid argument, although I myself live in the Heart of Dixie, born and raised. I've seen the positives, such as the excellence of the Department of Forensics, as you mentioned, and I have also seen the negatives, such as HB 56, Amendment 6, heck, even back to Richard Arrington's MAPS initiative getting defeated by people it didn't affect and Don Siegelman losing the battle for a state lottery. I absolutely love this state, but we tend to do silly things.

Offline Kythia

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Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2012, 01:50:18 PM »
You would be right and those who bought into it were convinced by buzz words and fears of conspiracies created in the propaganda factories of the GOP.It also lowers my confidence in the southern voter in general.

I have friends in Louisiana.  Their kids are US citizens, currently they are way too young to vote but will eventually grow to become southern voters.  Even were that not the case I would still be... amazed by this statement. 

Alabama passed a ballot measure that went against federal law, exactly as those states that legalized weed did.  But somehow Alabama's actions make you think not only worse of the x% of voters who supported it, not only the entire voting population of Alabama including those who voted against but in fact the voters of an entire swathe of your country comprising an area considerably larger than most countries?

I hope that you're exageratting for the sake of effect, I really do.  Because that statement is just unbelievable.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2012, 01:51:50 PM »
You make a very valid argument, although I myself live in the Heart of Dixie, born and raised. I've seen the positives, such as the excellence of the Department of Forensics, as you mentioned, and I have also seen the negatives, such as HB 56, Amendment 6, heck, even back to Richard Arrington's MAPS initiative getting defeated by people it didn't affect and Don Siegelman losing the battle for a state lottery. I absolutely love this state, but we tend to do silly things.

I just don't understand the lottery thing. I don't pretend to get it. :P

The way I see it, people do silly things when they're feeling insecure or scared. These ballot measures say, to me, that people really haven't been educated well enough on the issues. First of all, the SCOTUS hasn't ruled in favor of a state over a federal law in the last hundred years or more, so passing such a ballot measure is pretty much pointless given that it is almost guaranteed to be struck down. Second of all, voting in favor of blocking the ACA is essentially voting against one's own self-interest, and people who know the facts are going to know that. So I really think that the Obama administration needs to saddle up and put as much effort into educating the American people about the specific impact of the ACA as they did in winning the election. Their election campaign showed an impressive capacity for infrastructure... so they need to do that with the ACA.

* Trieste didn't mean to come off as harsh, apologizes for that.

Offline TheWildcatTopic starter

Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2012, 03:08:41 PM »
Definitely. I actually wrote Senator Bacchus a letter supporting ACA, and got a bunch of B.S. back. Wrote him again with graphs and stats that showed every point his letter made was wrong, and got the exact same letter back. I remember that ACA was supposed to make Medicaid available to everyone through subsidies, but that SCOTUS made that part optional, so we both know that's not happening in Alabama. Governor Bentley will make sure of it. Which reminds me, has he started getting paid yet?

Offline TheWildcatTopic starter

Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2012, 05:21:24 AM »
My understanding of the lottery plan Siegelman had was basically the same kind of lottery that Florida has, which is all the money from lottery ticket sales not being paid to winners or being used for the amazingly miniscule operating overhead of the lottery would be paid directly to the state department of education to be divided up among the state's local school boards (which is decided every year by attendance about a month after the start of the school year). However, it was defeated for the same reasons that electronic bingo keeps getting shot down (although it is really similar to a bingo-slots hybrid): this is the Bible Belt, where we absolutely hate gambling and such, and yet go to Mississippi and do it, on CHURCH TRIPS no less.

Offline Lux12

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Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2012, 11:39:11 AM »
I have friends in Louisiana.  Their kids are US citizens, currently they are way too young to vote but will eventually grow to become southern voters.  Even were that not the case I would still be... amazed by this statement. 

Alabama passed a ballot measure that went against federal law, exactly as those states that legalized weed did.  But somehow Alabama's actions make you think not only worse of the x% of voters who supported it, not only the entire voting population of Alabama including those who voted against but in fact the voters of an entire swathe of your country comprising an area considerably larger than most countries?

I hope that you're exageratting for the sake of effect, I really do.  Because that statement is just unbelievable.

My respect for the south has been pretty low since the catastrophe known as the Bush regime.That and the general social attitudes of many people down there haven't helped.Alabama is playing into the hands of the "I am John Galt" Ayne Rand worshipers and that is something I dislike.I'm sick of this so called "states rights" crap too.States rights led to war, discrimination, and a social nightmare the last time people championed them. We're one nation and people ought to start acting like it. As far as I am concerned there is no Alabama, there is no New York, there is no California, there is no Ohio, there is only America. They would require a sudden and profound shift to more progressive ideals in order for me to forgive them in full any time soon.

As for the pot legalization. That is justified as there is an absolute benefit to gained. Those laws banning it were passed for less than honorable reasons to begin with and thus must be overturned.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2012, 12:21:15 PM »
My respect for the south has been pretty low since the catastrophe known as the Bush regime.That and the general social attitudes of many people down there haven't helped.Alabama is playing into the hands of the "I am John Galt" Ayne Rand worshipers and that is something I dislike.I'm sick of this so called "states rights" crap too.States rights led to war, discrimination, and a social nightmare the last time people championed them. We're one nation and people ought to start acting like it. As far as I am concerned there is no Alabama, there is no New York, there is no California, there is no Ohio, there is only America. They would require a sudden and profound shift to more progressive ideals in order for me to forgive them in full any time soon.

As for the pot legalization. That is justified as there is an absolute benefit to gained. Those laws banning it were passed for less than honorable reasons to begin with and thus must be overturned.

You know I've said this before. I shall say it again. I'm tired of being told, directly or by inference, that the sins of the bush administration (as well as anything else back to the civil war) are due in no small part to people like me who have the gall to b white southern and male. Doubly so for folks like my family who have something like 4 centuries of living in the south. (I have found ties to he Royal colony of Virginia in the 1630s)

Bush got GOBs of help from the south to get elected. True. But not all of us stand around in trailer parks in trucker caps and wifebeaters with a fist full of chew in our mouth.

The south isn't a problem. And I'm tired of being punished for being white with a drawl.

Bush2 won twice, yeah with the help of the south and agricultural belt and places like the rust belt. Has it missed your notice that a LOT of the people who voted for him felt they were being ignored by the Democrats?  Look back to Reagan's victory with the help of organized Labor. Why did they back him over Carter?

Offline Kythia

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Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2012, 12:30:44 PM »
My respect for the south has been pretty low .. discrimination.

OK.  I'm really not willing to get into an argument here.  If I come across as confrontational I hope you can chalk it down to difficulties in tone of voice in writing rather than me being a psycho mega bitch.  I promise its the former, no matter what the fairly pithy edit job of your quote might make it look like.

"The catastrophe known as the Bush regime".  Clearly you have pretty strong political beliefs.  Thats a) groovilicious, b) spiffy and more importantly c) not a thing that effects me in the slightest and so not really any of my business.  And everyone casts themselves as the hero in their own life - just the other day I slightly injured my toe kicking an adorable puppy and I didn't have to pause for thought to make it into the villain of the piece.  But I wonder if its maybe not worth re-examining some of your (stated) opinions.  You are happy to write off the opinions of millions and millions of people.Happy to denigrate them because they voted for someone you dislike. 

I haven't followed the ACA debate with anything other than passing notice because it doesn't affect me in the slightest and I'm monumentally self-absorbed.  But Trieste's points above rang true to me - that this is a failure in educating people in the issues.  Your point seems to be that the South is a huge morass of people either too stupid not to fall for the Republican/Satanic line or whose souls are so laden with evil that they willingly follow.  Now, leaving aside the massive dangers of categorising opposing political beliefs as a moral issue rather than a political one, you are wrong here.  Not a single state voted 100% for anything.  There are a wide range of people in the South and all the other compass directions. 

Maybe look at why Republican arguments are ringing true for people.  Saying "oh there is no Ohio, no Alabama, etc" is all very fine and noble but its a fairly silly position to hold.  There are massive differences in the economies, cultures, political backgrounds of various places.

And, to (finally) get to the point, making sweeping statements where you dismiss these millions of people and saying that only massive changes can cause you to forgive them for disagreeing with you doesn't exactly make you look like the beacon of tolerance that I have no doubt you are in real life.

Offline Lux12

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Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2012, 01:16:14 PM »
Satanic is the right word for how I see that accursed party. I cannot think of a more perfect word to describe them since the death of the Lincoln Republican. It's not that they voted for someone I despise with a venom so terrible I'm not certain anyone can understand, but that they essentially voted for what he did. They voted for xenophobia, they voted for Christian fundamentalism, they voted for policies that favored the rich at the expense of the poor, they voted for violations of our constitution, they voted for a declining education system, they voted for a terrible deficit. For two terms no less and one would expect me to forgive and forget this when the policies they have been pushing would be a tremendous detriment to people who are very close to me? People with serious health conditions, people working in professional jobs who don't get the respect they deserve? For almost outright demanding another war when I have two friends in the military? For mocking rape victims when I know them? Major amends need to be made before I can come anywhere near forgiving that party or those who voted for them. For now they can only ask the Gods. That is their duty to forgive so willingly, not mine. Mine is to try and make sure such a thing does not happen again. These are the seeds of madness. I cannot think of a logical reason to follow through on any of these things.

Sorry if I sound overly venomous, but with all that has happened, it is very difficult for me to carry more amiable feelings toward them.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2012, 02:13:49 PM by Lux12 »

Offline Kythia

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Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2012, 01:20:12 PM »
Mmmm.  We're not going to agree here I think and it kinda seems like arguing further would just be instinctive.  So I'll just bow out with a "Welcome to E, have fun!" until we bump into each other again.

Take care, hun.  *hugs*

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2012, 01:21:47 PM »
That's alright Lux, I'm used to being tarred by my party and outsiders alike. I noticed when Nancy Pelosi's house run was underway, she didn't do much to help the moral moderates in the GOP and greatly aided the double high authoritarians in consolidating their hold on my party. By I'm a RINO so I don't matter in the scheme of things.  I'm told to vote in lockstep with a party who refuse to listen to me, then sneered at when I admit I'm a republican to liberals.

RINO= Republican in Name Only.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2012, 01:40:38 PM »
Satanic is the right word for how I see that accursed party.

Have you seen how they treat Satanists down there?  :o

;)

Offline Lux12

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Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2012, 02:32:08 PM »
Have you seen how they treat Satanists down there?  :o

;)

Trust me, the LaVeyans I know are closer to Jesus and God than many of them are, and I'm at best rather suspicious of them. They at least are content to let others do what they will so long as they do not harm them.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2012, 02:34:10 PM by Lux12 »

Offline Oniya

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Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2012, 02:36:52 PM »
I find that the most suitable epithet for the bogglingly far-right is to call them 'fundies' and leave it at that.  ;D  Not only can they not really argue the point, but it leaves out all of the fine, open-minded Southerners that this Damn Yankee has had the pleasure of meeting.


Offline Trieste

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Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2012, 05:15:32 PM »
I beg your pardon.

In 2000, Bush won with not only southern states voting for him but also states such as Colorado and New Hampshire. Please take your grudge against states due to their geographical location and rethink it.

Just because Bush came from a southern state doesn't mean that all southerners agree with him.

Same with Rick Perry.

Same with (insert any wackjob you want here).

As far as states' rights, I support them. I don't want the people of Texas determining the law in Massachusetts any more than the people of Texas want the converse. Most states have very, very different populations with very different ideologies. Maryland is often a blue state, whereas its neighbor Virginia is often red (this past election being an exception). Lumping the whole nation together as 'Merica gives me cold shivers - and I'm an independent.

Offline Lux12

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Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2012, 05:47:33 PM »
I consider Colorado southern. The New Hampshire thing was likely rigged.It's gonna take quite a bit more than asking me to reconsider when I do not seem to have sufficient evidence to the contrary to get me to give up my grudge.

Also I don't think you quite understand the damage states rights arguments have done.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2012, 12:00:01 PM by Lux12 »

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2012, 05:50:56 PM »
I consider Colorado southern. The New Hampshire thing was likely rigged.Until I have overwhelming evidence I feel little reason to reconsider.

Also I don't think you quite understand the damage states rights arguments have done.

I think you haven't considered the impact of Tyranny of the Majority/Minority either.

The whole system is a delicate balance of minding the minority and majority and their rights. Granting one side the most liberty without infringing the others.

It's not perfect..

The problem is.. for it to work..each and every citizen has an Obligation to do their part and inform themselves, watch the elected and VOTE.

« Last Edit: November 19, 2012, 05:53:52 PM by Callie Del Noire »

Offline Trieste

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Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2012, 06:15:06 PM »
Also I don't think you quite understand the damage states rights arguments have done.

If you'd like to try to enlighten me, go for it.

I consider Colorado southern. The New Hampshire thing was likely rigged.There's gonna take quite a bit more than asking me to reconsider when I do not seem to have sufficient evidence to the contrary to get me to give up my grudge.

Montana. Idaho. North Dakota. Alaska. All red.

It's not just the southern US. Get over it.

Offline Lux12

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Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2012, 06:31:43 PM »
That still doesn't make me any less miffed.

Also what do slavery, the civil war, general discrimination, segregation, racism, and the opposition to gay marriage have in common? These have all been argued for on the grounds of or caused by the monster known as states rights.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2012, 06:37:15 PM »
Are you aware that slaves were kept in more than just the states that seceded? Are you aware that the civil war was largely an economic fight rather than a fight over slaves? Are you aware that discrimination is a national problem and not just focused in the southern states? Are you aware that states rights also allow gay marriage to be legalized by state as well? Are you aware that states rights are what allow gays to get married at all while article 2 of the DOMA is in effect? Are you aware that states rights allow individual states to control things like gun ownership according to their populace and crime rates rather than forcing Congress to come up with a national standard that wouldn't fit anyone?

I think probably the answer to every question is no.

That still doesn't make me any less miffed.

Well, that's pretty much a personal problem, because it doesn't line up with the facts.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2012, 06:45:14 PM »
That still doesn't make me any less miffed.

Also what do slavery, the civil war, general discrimination, segregation, racism, and the opposition to gay marriage have in common? These have all been argued for on the grounds of or caused by the monster known as states rights.

Opposition to gay marriage was caused by State's Rights? Please enlighten me on that one please. Then explain how general discrimination,segregation, racism are caused by it.

Sorry.. you got it backwards. It is used to oppose these issues.. Ironically SUPPORT of Gay marriage has benefited from State's rights too. As has the actions to legalized marjuianna.

So.. it's not a monster.. it's a tool. Used for good and bad.

As for the 'Southern states are evil and backwards and corrupt'. Please.  Stop.

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Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2012, 07:03:25 PM »
All generalities are false.

Chew on that for a little while, and then please re-read the stickies and the descriptor text for this board:

Quote
This forum is for discussing political climates, religion, and other controversial topics. Please do be aware of what you post and how it is phrased so that it is less likely to seem confrontational.