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Author Topic: Alabama has done it again  (Read 2515 times)

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Offline Lux12

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Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2012, 07:44:32 PM »
States rights was a rallying cry for segregation (among other racist policies it was used to support) supporters back during the Civil Rights Movement and before it. It was also used to support the ownership of slaves before and during the Civil War. Rick Perry is also a notable supporter of states rights in the modern era.

Trieste-I'd like to know what facts you've been looking at. The words that have out many politicians mouths from that region have done little to inspire confidence in me. Especially all the talk about making anyone who looks like they could be of Hispanic descent carry papers (which is similar to something the nazis did with the Jews). Religious discrimination hardly seems to be dealt with at times. Sexism has more sway down there. There's still widespread discrimination against gay people down there. Oklahoma  banned all abortion. Then there's this:

http://www.ethicsdaily.com/texas-becomes-ground-zero-for-historical-revisionism-cms-15781

The region has some serious problems it needs to straighten out. With all this combined with living through the Bush era should it really surprise you that I have so little trust in them?

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2012, 07:50:32 PM »
States rights was a rallying cry for segregation (among other racist policies it was used to support) supporters back during the Civil Rights Movement and before it. It was also used to support the ownership of slaves before and during the Civil War. Rick Perry is also a notable supporter of states rights in the modern era.

Trieste-I'd like to know what facts you've been looking at. The words that have out many politicians mouths from that region have done little to inspire confidence in me. Especially all the talk about making anyone who looks like they could be of Hispanic descent carry papers (which is similar to something the nazis did with the Jews). Religious discrimination hardly seems to be dealt with at times. Sexism has more sway down there. There's still widespread discrimination against gay people down there. Oklahoma  banned all abortion. Then there's this:

http://www.ethicsdaily.com/texas-becomes-ground-zero-for-historical-revisionism-cms-15781

The region has some serious problems it needs to straighten out. With all this combined with living through the Bush era should it really surprise you that I have so little trust in them?

So you're going to ignore my comments on how state's rights HAS HELPED Gay Marriage, and the other issues I mention and remain stuck on the bad facets of the methodology only?

And trust me.. 8 years of Bush wasn't the worst thing we've ever had. Or will have.

I'd argue the 25+ years (with a short pause under Nancy Pelosi) of the GOP dominating the house did more than the president did.


Offline Trieste

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Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2012, 07:57:35 PM »
So you're going to ignore my comments on how state's rights HAS HELPED Gay Marriage, and the other issues I mention and remain stuck on the bad facets of the methodology only?

You and me both, Callie. It's probably because everyone knows that people below the Mason/Dixon line can't read. The illiteracy level makes all your points invalid. ::)

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2012, 07:59:20 PM »
You and me both, Callie. It's probably because everyone knows that people below the Mason/Dixon line can't read. The illiteracy level makes all your points invalid. ::)

And people wondered why I microwaved my chiefs and officers from up North while I was in the navy.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2012, 08:00:16 PM »
And people wondered why I microwaved my chiefs and officers from up North while I was in the navy.

Discrimination against Native Americans!! *points finger at Callie*

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2012, 08:01:12 PM »
Discrimination against Native Americans!! *points finger at Callie*

CHIEF PETTY OFFICERS..

(Callie is part Cherokee... )

Offline Trieste

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Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2012, 08:02:05 PM »
CHIEF PETTY OFFICERS..

(Callie is part Cherokee... )

You're so infected by local thinking that you're discriminating against yourself, see. ::)

Offline Lux12

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Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2012, 08:32:41 PM »
Are you even going to acknowledge that the region does have very real problems?

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2012, 08:36:46 PM »
Are you even going to acknowledge that the region does have very real problems?

I acknowlege that ALL the country has problems. You're saying it's like there is nothing but a bunch of rich white folks going to the country club and the poor white folks are all trailer park trash and that if you're white and southern. you must A. Be Republican. B. Be racist C. Stupid and illiterate.

Offline Stattick

Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #34 on: November 19, 2012, 09:55:29 PM »
Are you even going to acknowledge that the region does have very real problems?

I've said before that the region has some very real problems, and I stand by that. Bigotry, anti-intellectualism, etc. It's easy to forget that those are real people that we're talking about there though, and that there are plenty of people that live in the South that are very much against the fundies, the bigotry, and all the other problems down there. It's true that some of those states have a fairly high proportion of Republican leaning voters. IIRC, several of the southern states only went around 37% for Obama, while many were closer to 45%. The states that went less for Obama then that weren't in the South - Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, etc.

You have to consider that in the big cities in the South, that the people tend to much like the people in the big cities all across the country - they lean liberal, like fancy coffee, ethnic food, and so forth. They tend to have a lot in common with people from New York City, L.A., and so forth. As the demographics shift, the South is slowly turning more liberal as well. If the GOP doesn't change, they're going to be in a hell of a lot of hurt as they start loosing Southern states.

It's easy to paint the South as a bastion of willful ignorance. It's a stereotype. Like many stereotypes, there's some truth to it. But a great many people in the South do not live up to that stereotype. Hell, I'd even venture to guess that most of the people down there don't live up to all of the stereotypes. Those that do tend toward the stereotypes very likely only tend toward one or two of those stereotypes instead of all of them. Sure, if you look hard enough, you'll find a few knuckle draggers that fit all the stereotypes, but I'd guess that they account for fewer than 1% of the population in the South. It's probably pretty close to the same percentage of knuckle draggers you'd find in any state.

Does the South still have some more growing up to do? Yep. So does the rest of the country too. The difference between most Southern States and most of the liberal states in this country are less than 15% of the populous. In both areas, you find knuckle draggers, and in both areas you find ultra liberals. You find all the same sorts of people in both areas. It's just that the proportions are little different in some areas than in others. Probably in ten years, we're going to have a few Southern States that will have flipped blue instead of red, and a few more that are swing states.

The fault for many of the problems we have in this country, and the problems in the South are more due to some elements of the Republican Party than to intractable and intrinsic Southern Racism. I don't try to deny that Southern Racism is a real thing - hell, I've seen it with my own eyes. But this isn't Mississippi Burning anymore. Things are changing and continue to change. The GOP has molded itself to appeal to racists, and that's how they took the South in the 60's once the Democrats stopped supporting segregation and a racist agenda. But if I had to make a guess, I'd guess that today that a racist agenda is only a small part of how the Republican Party retains its hold. Many Republicans are not racists, and many of them find the racist elements of their party to be repugnant.

It's easy to loose sight of the fact that when you talk about the problems of the South, Southern Racism, and so forth, that you're talking about real people, and painting them with a broad brush that doesn't apply to many of them. It's easy to loose sight of the fact that some of the people that you're painting with that brush are members here. Like all stereotypes, when you paint them with that broad brush, it hurts. It might anger them, and they lash out, or it might make them feel like shit. Probably most of them don't even say anything. Some of them might just write you off as being a bigot, one that's bigoted against them because they come from the wrong part of the country in your opinion.

It's easy to fall into that sort of bigotry. There are certainly problems in the South. There's certainly a lot of ugliness there historically, and even some today. But when you aren't careful with how you think, it's easy to lump all "those people" together, and to fall victim of the sin of bigotry that you accuse them of. When you aren't careful of how you speak or write, it's easy to misrepresent yourself, and to write in such a manner as to make it sound like you're lumping them all together when that's not your intention. I'm not sure which is going on here with Lux. Personally, I don't really care either. I understand where you're coming from Lux. I too have problems with the South. I understand that you intend well, and that you want the same sort of things that I want. But I hope that you'll realize that a great many of the Southerners that you're talking about are nothing like what you've said that they're like.  And we probably don't have a single long term member of E that's the knuckle dragging sort. Meanwhile, we do have at least one Southerner posting in this thread that I know, and likely more. And I'd venture to guess that where we have a just a few people that have spoken up here, that there's probably at least a dozen more that haven't said anything. Any one of them could be one of your friends, writing partners, or someone you chat, flirt, or game with. They're real people.

Offline Silverfyre

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Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2012, 10:17:48 PM »
But why cite facts when using generalizations and stereotypes is so much easier?!   ::)

Really, I've seen you haunt several threads now, Lux, and each time you have made nothing but generalizations and assumptions about the issues at hand.  Perhaps you shouldn't be so set in your prejudice and stop drawing upon such generalizations of entire cultures, states and people.  It only shows how ignorant of the entire situation you make yourself out to be.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2012, 10:21:39 PM by Silverfyre »

Offline Lux12

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Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #36 on: November 20, 2012, 12:05:02 AM »
But why cite facts when using generalizations and stereotypes is so much easier?!   ::)

Really, I've seen you haunt several threads now, Lux, and each time you have made nothing but generalizations and assumptions about the issues at hand.  Perhaps you shouldn't be so set in your prejudice and stop drawing upon such generalizations of entire cultures, states and people.  It only shows how ignorant of the entire situation you make yourself out to be.

There are only two like that I can think of and sorry I don't feel like doing an MLA or APA style citation for every sentence I write when I've spent a good chunk of the year doing just that.I don't exactly see anyone else here going to such extraordinary lengths here either.

Stattick-That's all I wanted to hear!Someone here acknowledging that things are in fact screwed up down there and in desperate need of fixing! If someone had just said something more along those lines I probably wouldn't have gone on so long. If someone would have just have said that the social climate down there has some rather serious flaws and understood the very source of my frustration. You understand my anger. I'm just so disgusted by the thought that people like that exist anywhere on this planet. I'm mad as hell and I've been mad for years now as I watched this country fall apart at the seams. I'm mad that so many people did nothing to stop it. I'm mad that people seem to be increasingly apathetic to these issues these days. I'm mad that there are still so many people here and around the world who think in such ways. I'm furious that after years of suffering under similar policies the race was still so close between that greedy S.O.B. and Obama prior to Obama's presidency. The fact that even the most conservative part of this country would still largely cast their ballots for those policies makes me furious. It just seems like no matter how this country comes as a whole these days, something is always in the way. I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired.

To be honest it's that damned party I despise more. In all honesty I would vote for southern democrat/green party/insert other progressive party here before I'd ever vote for a northern republican. That party has destroyed any trust I may ever have had in it many times over to the point where it would require a miracle of the divine for me to ever cast my ballot for one of them. To be honest, most of my rage against the south is probably me venting against them instead. The south just has the misfortune of being the base area of their most consistent supporters as of late. I can feel my self simmering down as I say this. However, I will never overlook the issues present there, nor do I think you would ask me to.

All this being said I'd still be hard pressed to show any affection for the state of Texas beyond admiring the natural landscape of the area...

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #37 on: November 20, 2012, 12:24:29 AM »
Why did they back him over Carter?

Um, the major reason was actually psychological.  Carter was shorter than Reagan.  And a lot of the general populace equate size with leadership qualities.  And Reagan used every 'dirty' trick to show that he was taller, and thus better equipped to lead than Carter did.  Carter's office never wanted him and Reagan to be shown together because of the severe size difference.  Reagan was 6' 2" or so, Carter was 5' 8".

Being a former member of the U.S. Armed Forces, Callie, you know better than that.  But most voters do not.  And Political Offices know this.  And will use it to help get them elected.

After all, there were people polled in the U.S. that wanted George Clooney to run for office.  Why?  No one said, but he has no training in politics, and yet people would have voted for him.  I have, or had, the article mentioning this.  I think I posted it somewhere else in here...

Offline Lux12

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Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #38 on: November 20, 2012, 02:25:48 AM »
Um, the major reason was actually psychological.  Carter was shorter than Reagan.  And a lot of the general populace equate size with leadership qualities.  And Reagan used every 'dirty' trick to show that he was taller, and thus better equipped to lead than Carter did.  Carter's office never wanted him and Reagan to be shown together because of the severe size difference.  Reagan was 6' 2" or so, Carter was 5' 8".

Being a former member of the U.S. Armed Forces, Callie, you know better than that.  But most voters do not.  And Political Offices know this.  And will use it to help get them elected.

After all, there were people polled in the U.S. that wanted George Clooney to run for office.  Why?  No one said, but he has no training in politics, and yet people would have voted for him.  I have, or had, the article mentioning this.  I think I posted it somewhere else in here...

That and the the unfortunate timing and the fact that Carter was a bit too honest for some people's tastes.

Offline Stattick

Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #39 on: November 20, 2012, 07:48:04 AM »
There are only two like that I can think of and sorry I don't feel like doing an MLA or APA style citation for every sentence I write when I've spent a good chunk of the year doing just that.I don't exactly see anyone else here going to such extraordinary lengths here either.

Stattick-That's all I wanted to hear!Someone here acknowledging that things are in fact screwed up down there and in desperate need of fixing! If someone had just said something more along those lines I probably wouldn't have gone on so long. If someone would have just have said that the social climate down there has some rather serious flaws and understood the very source of my frustration. You understand my anger. I'm just so disgusted by the thought that people like that exist anywhere on this planet. I'm mad as hell and I've been mad for years now as I watched this country fall apart at the seams. I'm mad that so many people did nothing to stop it. I'm mad that people seem to be increasingly apathetic to these issues these days. I'm mad that there are still so many people here and around the world who think in such ways. I'm furious that after years of suffering under similar policies the race was still so close between that greedy S.O.B. and Obama prior to Obama's presidency. The fact that even the most conservative part of this country would still largely cast their ballots for those policies makes me furious. It just seems like no matter how this country comes as a whole these days, something is always in the way. I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired.

To be honest it's that damned party I despise more. In all honesty I would vote for southern democrat/green party/insert other progressive party here before I'd ever vote for a northern republican. That party has destroyed any trust I may ever have had in it many times over to the point where it would require a miracle of the divine for me to ever cast my ballot for one of them. To be honest, most of my rage against the south is probably me venting against them instead. The south just has the misfortune of being the base area of their most consistent supporters as of late. I can feel my self simmering down as I say this. However, I will never overlook the issues present there, nor do I think you would ask me to.

All this being said I'd still be hard pressed to show any affection for the state of Texas beyond admiring the natural landscape of the area...

I don't think you understood what I was saying. I was trying to convey that you're coming off like a bigot, and that we have members posting in this very thread that are Southerners. I was trying to get you to see that although I agree with some of what you're saying, you're saying it in a way that makes it sound as if EVERY Southerner is part of the problem, when in fact it is a lot more complicated then that.

Try this. Imagine the same arguments that you made, but replace "Country" with "World", and replace "Southerners" with "Muslims". You'd be saying that EVERY Muslim is bad and part of the problem in fucking up the whole world. It's incontrovertible that some Muslims are part of some of the problems that are fucking up the world, but it's unfair and bigoted to say that ALL Muslims are part of the problem.

Or maybe try this: the same arguments that you made against Southerns, but replace "Southerners" with "White Men". The broad brush you used would make it sound like EVERY white male is ignorant, racist, anti-intellectual, sexist, and ruining the country.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #40 on: November 20, 2012, 09:24:44 AM »
Um, the major reason was actually psychological.  Carter was shorter than Reagan.  And a lot of the general populace equate size with leadership qualities.  And Reagan used every 'dirty' trick to show that he was taller, and thus better equipped to lead than Carter did.  Carter's office never wanted him and Reagan to be shown together because of the severe size difference.  Reagan was 6' 2" or so, Carter was 5' 8".

Being a former member of the U.S. Armed Forces, Callie, you know better than that.  But most voters do not.  And Political Offices know this.  And will use it to help get them elected.

After all, there were people polled in the U.S. that wanted George Clooney to run for office.  Why?  No one said, but he has no training in politics, and yet people would have voted for him.  I have, or had, the article mentioning this.  I think I posted it somewhere else in here...

Not entirely. The reason that organized labor backed Reagan over Carter had as much to do with an Alienation of Organized Labor and the Farmer democrat. The change over in the personality of the Democratic party started during Carter's term and a lot of the 'intellectual elite' and 60s era 'hippie' reformers moved up in the party structure. There was a serious disconnect, and it was one that Reagan used.. it was the beginning of the end for Organized Labor and there hasn't been a lot done on either side to repair it since.

The more conservative farmers.. they stayed with the GOP but Labor hasn't had a champion in Congress and now they are getting it in the shorts with anti-labor legislation. This is a good part of the reason things haven't been easy for the Dem in congress.

I don't think you understood what I was saying. I was trying to convey that you're coming off like a bigot, and that we have members posting in this very thread that are Southerners. I was trying to get you to see that although I agree with some of what you're saying, you're saying it in a way that makes it sound as if EVERY Southerner is part of the problem, when in fact it is a lot more complicated then that.

Try this. Imagine the same arguments that you made, but replace "Country" with "World", and replace "Southerners" with "Muslims". You'd be saying that EVERY Muslim is bad and part of the problem in fucking up the whole world. It's incontrovertible that some Muslims are part of some of the problems that are fucking up the world, but it's unfair and bigoted to say that ALL Muslims are part of the problem.

Or maybe try this: the same arguments that you made against Southerns, but replace "Southerners" with "White Men". The broad brush you used would make it sound like EVERY white male is ignorant, racist, anti-intellectual, sexist, and ruining the country.

give it up Stattick.. he's set in the 'Southerners are evil' mode and given that he hadn't responded any of my statement or questions that I'm 'beneath' his notice. Of course I am the 'evil' southern.

FYI.. I have been slabbed with the 'Southern Cracker Racist' before in the Navy.. got hauled in front of my Master Chief by some black kid from Long Beach,Ca because my ''cracker ass' reported him for breaking quiet hours. Supposedly I picked on him because as a southern I dislike rap and let the guys on the 4th floor off cause they were playing country music.  The dance went something like this.

MC: "Petty Officer why did you right up Airman D.?"
Me: "He was playing music at a volume that I could hear two decks away after 10 pm Master Chief."
MC: "He says that you let the airmen on the 4th floor because they were white. Would you care to tell me what actually happened?"
Me: "I did as you directed Master Chief, contacted base security and this morning their command because they were in another squadron."
MC: "Airman.. stay a moment.. Petty Officer.. be about your business."

(The net result? I had the rep of being racist for a week after this.. TILL the chiefs started telling what really happened. And in my command.. that could be a problem. Racism isn't simply one way.. or from one region. I had to write up NINE airmen and junior petty officers for dereliction, subornination and one attempt at instigating a fight with me.. because one kid from LONG BEACH decided since I said words like 'Ya'll', 'Ain't' and like grits I MUST be a Racist white guy.. Airmen in question said 'I can't be racist.. I'm black'. Apparently his black supervisor from Compton disagreed.. he got sent to sensativity training..twice. And lost a rank for being abusive to a white subordinate.)

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #41 on: November 20, 2012, 09:34:12 AM »
My Point is this.. by setting one specific location, group, or whatever as 'racisit' and ONLY them.. you leave other abuses open without helping folks. I know several korean grocers in California who would argue that they deal with a LOT of racist behaviors that don't come from white folks.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #42 on: November 20, 2012, 09:47:56 AM »
Not entirely. The reason that organized labor backed Reagan over Carter had as much to do with an Alienation of Organized Labor and the Farmer democrat. The change over in the personality of the Democratic party started during Carter's term and a lot of the 'intellectual elite' and 60s era 'hippie' reformers moved up in the party structure. There was a serious disconnect, and it was one that Reagan used.. it was the beginning of the end for Organized Labor and there hasn't been a lot done on either side to repair it since.

The more conservative farmers.. they stayed with the GOP but Labor hasn't had a champion in Congress and now they are getting it in the shorts with anti-labor legislation. This is a good part of the reason things haven't been easy for the Dem in congress.

There was also the fact that the Iranian Hostage situation occurred at the end of Carter's term.  People wanted someone who could get them home, Carter was having difficulties, and Reagan was a new face.  After the election results were in, there was a deliberate move on the part of the Iranians not to release the hostages until Reagan took office, just to make Carter look even worse.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #43 on: November 20, 2012, 10:00:26 AM »
There was also the fact that the Iranian Hostage situation occurred at the end of Carter's term.  People wanted someone who could get them home, Carter was having difficulties, and Reagan was a new face.  After the election results were in, there was a deliberate move on the part of the Iranians not to release the hostages until Reagan took office, just to make Carter look even worse.

There is some issues that point towards Reagan's campaign might have interferred with the process as well. One of my teachers in my first attempt at college had worked for the Carter Campaign in Atlanta and there was a LOT of paperwork that was going missing during the time from about July to November.  Nothing that could be proven concretely.. but it was clear that someone was 'sneaking and peaking' but they never caught anyone.

There was a LOT of reasons that Carter lost to Reagan.. the Democrats losing Union support that year didn't help much at all.  I honestly think had it not been for watergate, Carter wouldn't have gotten nominated much less elected.

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Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #44 on: November 20, 2012, 01:55:34 PM »

give it up Stattick.. he's set in the 'Southerners are evil' mode and given that he hadn't responded any of my statement or questions that I'm 'beneath' his notice. Of course I am the 'evil' southern.

In addition, when someone who is only 21 years old drones on about how he's been angry for "years", I tend to take that with a huge grain of salt.  ::)

Offline Silverfyre

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Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #45 on: November 20, 2012, 02:07:39 PM »
In addition, when someone who is only 21 years old drones on about how he's been angry for "years", I tend to take that with a huge grain of salt.  ::)

But isn't that what teenage years are all about?  Heh.

Offline Lux12

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Re: Backwards Alabama has done it again
« Reply #46 on: November 20, 2012, 04:11:11 PM »
In addition, when someone who is only 21 years old drones on about how he's been angry for "years", I tend to take that with a huge grain of salt.  ::)

One does not have to be much older to know when something is deeply wrong with a situation or to read.

Perhaps I am being a bit overly venomous when you put it that way.It still doesn't change my opinion of those who voted for Romney and his little friends or my disappointment with the social atmosphere down there.

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Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #47 on: November 20, 2012, 04:23:00 PM »
I honestly don't blame you for being as miffed as you are about the whole situation. I've seen it all too often down here in Florida, more than enough for me to want to get the hell out of this state.  But, the problem that is being presented here with your statements is how you basically generalized the entire southern region into one broad stereotype.  Nothing good comes from such generalizations as they are not only nonfactual but also misleading and judgmental against people who are quite the opposite. 

Be frustrated; I know I am.  Just don't think everyone who lives in a demographic of the United States can be fit into one category so easily.  I know I sure as hell don't enjoy being called ignorant and a racist because I live in the South.

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Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #48 on: November 20, 2012, 05:04:41 PM »
You don't like that people voted for Romney?  The guy you dislike so much is from Massachusetts.  His VP was from Wisconsin I think.  They held the same views, but aren't Southern.  People are people, and just because a state ended up blue didn't mean there weren't lots of people who voted Republican because they're bigots.  Ignorant religious zealots are a widespread problem.  Like Silverfyre said, be angry.  Many of us are.  Just don't go insulting like half the country. 

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Re: Alabama has done it again
« Reply #49 on: November 20, 2012, 05:07:47 PM »
We all see what happens when you insult 47% percent of the population.   ::)