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Author Topic: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid  (Read 13315 times)

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Online Zeitgeist

Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #250 on: February 20, 2013, 07:00:01 AM »
Not sure how to feel about this. If she were emancipated, on her own, and not dependent on her parents, I would be cheering wholeheartedly. However, she is not, and now the parents are court-ordered to pay for essentially another dependent.

Children are not allowed to get tattoos and piercings without parental consent. Why in the world should something as enormously more complex as a child be looked on with more permissiveness?

http://news.yahoo.com/pregnant-teen-wins-abortion-battle-150554993--abc-news-topstories.html

I know that I read somewhere that a right-to-life group was supporting (legally?) the teenage girl. I wonder, as I don't know, if other groups, right-to-choice groups were also supportive of her choice.

After all choice, is choice. So surely they'd support her right to choose to have the baby just as much as they would were she have choose not to have the baby. Right?

I too have real issues with the government interceding and ordering parents to acquiesce the daughter's decision. It is a difficult question and there seems to be no good solution.

Offline Trieste

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Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #251 on: February 20, 2013, 10:18:08 AM »
I hear the words 'personal responsibility' thrown at the pro-choice stance a lot. Usually it's in the context (as I interpret it) that if a woman dared to have sex, she should accept her 'personal responsibility' as far as the chance of getting pregnant. As if the child were some sort of abstract and deserved punishment rather than an eventual human. I strongly dislike this tack, so it's probably my frustration talking when I say that I don't think that pro-choice groups have any obligation, moral or otherwise, to support this girl financially. This probably seems hypocritical because I do think that anti-choice groups have a responsibility to support those people on whom they essentially forced a baby - but I don't think it is. There is a difference between permissiveness and enforcement, after all.

Choice is choice, that's all well and good, but there are many choices that parents make for their teenagers because teens are not considered mature enough, experienced enough, to make them responsibly. I think I'm also going to look up some statistics on how likely a woman who was a mother at 16 is to do things like finish high school and get a job that will support her and her family. I don't have the statistics to back it up, so I'm open to being wrong, but I think probably only the richest of young mothers probably don't end up needing help, as opposed to even single mothers who have their children later in life. I wonder if there are statistics on that... I have to look for them later.

Online Callie Del NoireTopic starter

Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #252 on: February 20, 2013, 01:01:38 PM »
Right off the bat... Trieste brings up the big point I see in a lot of pro-life arguments. I see a LOT of 'responsibility' thrown at the women in the issues..and damn near NO accountability pointed towards the men. Last time I checked it took two to create life. Why don't we see these legislators pushing for mandated dna testing to ensure the father's are properly identified and mandatory child support or such. I mean.. if it's okay to hold a woman accountable to such a degree.. why not hold the other part of the equation to the same level. 

Online SweetSerenade

Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #253 on: February 20, 2013, 03:59:43 PM »
I am still rather new to the site, but this thread has both brought me joy and enraged me. I am gladdened to see people opening their eyes. But further then that, I am sad to see people who continue to blame the female.

I do not believe what was pulled this election, was right in anyway. I actually abstain from voting on candidates, because I have a particular thing in mind, for someone I want leading the country. Now, people may say "Oh! Sweet! you abstained? That means you have no right to complain!". I'm with George Carlin on this one, if anyone knows his quote on this, you understand what I mean. I do have a right to complain. On another note, I'm probably about to drop a bomb that most people here probably didn't expect.

I have had two abortions.

Did I treat them like birth control? No! I was on birth control at the time, when I got pregnant, and even used condoms. No form of birth control is 100% (other then not having sex, and even then there are freak accidents.) The decision to have an abortion, is not an easy one. Did I take a bit of time to make the decision? Yes, I thought rather hard about it. Do I hate myself for what I did? Yes, and I always will. But I made the choice, because it was my body, and my choice. If someone wants more details, as to what happened, and why it happened, I may decide to write up a blog about it. As the event itself still causes a lot of problems in my life.

How about asking about Abortion views, from someone who has been through it? So many people pull out the 'using it as birth control' card, but the whole point of this country is the fact that we have FREEDOM. Women who have abortions? They are not evil people. Some of them can be, but there is evil in any group of people. So why are you, an outside force, trying to take away a woman's choice? This is not directed at anyone in particular, it is just a general statement.

Let me ask you this one simple question:

When has forbidding something, stopped it from happening?
« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 04:01:01 PM by SweetSerenade »

Online Zeitgeist

Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #254 on: February 20, 2013, 06:41:33 PM »
I am treading carefully here as this is a sensitive subject. That is an understatement, I know. I won't speak in absolutes and in all truth my views on this subject have gone under revision of late.

I am of the belief that if a pro-choice organizations supports any female, regardless of age, the choice of an abortion that they should offer the same measure of support if the choice that woman makes is to have the baby. To do otherwise looks bad doesn't? It's only one choice? Abortion or you're on your own honey? This plays right into the fears of pro-life advocates; that it abortions that are sought not real choice.

I'm just playing this out in my head and am not making declarations. I'm asking.

The particular angle that got me thinking and revising my own view on this, is this:

Considering many men who father children, especially those out of wedlock, end up skipping town or otherwise not doing their part in supporting the mother, then women most certainly need the option to end the pregnancy if they feel that is the best solution for them. What happens if a prospective mother's financial situation changes significantly during the term of pregnancy? What is she loses her job, gets evicted from her apartment and she is, say, four months pregnant. One reasonably valid choice may be abortion in the best interest of all parties involved.

So yes, until men start standing up and doing their part women need to have the option of abortion.

Offline Saria

Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #255 on: February 20, 2013, 07:10:50 PM »
I am of the belief that if a pro-choice organizations supports any female, regardless of age, the choice of an abortion that they should offer the same measure of support if the choice that woman makes is to have the baby.
This is an illogical argument because the situation isn't symmetrical. The reason anti-choice groups should be responsible for support if they prevent abortions is right there in the name: they took away the woman's choice to have an abortion, and they made the choice for her (obviously choosing not to let her have it). They made the choice, they pay the consequences.

Pro-choice groups do not make any choices for anyone else. They don't choose for women who want abortions (or who don't want abortions). Pro-choice groups certainly don't choose for women to have abortions - they simply insist that the women should have the right to make that choice themselves. The women make the choice, the women pay the consequences.

The point of pro-choice is just to give competent adults the freedom to choose, along with all the materials they need to make that choice intelligently and safely. If they provide the proper tools for a woman to make an intelligent, informed choice, but the woman chooses poorly, that's not the pro-choice group's fault. If someone provides you with properly designed and built tools along with the information you need to use them properly and safely, but you use them in a foolish way or built something crappy, that's not the fault of the person who gave you the tools. It's your fault. If you freely choose to have or not have an abortion, having been given all the proper information you need to make that choice intelligently and safely, then you take responsibility for that choice.

That being said, in the real world, people can and do make mistakes, especially if they're already in a tough situation. Sometimes they choose to have an abortion when they didn't really want one, or they choose to not have an abortion when they really couldn't support the baby. In those cases, we all - all of society, not just pro-choice people - should help them out if we can. No one's obligated to - certainly not the pro-choice group - but it's the humane and civil thing to do. That's why we have social services.

This particular case really has nothing to do with pro- or anti-choice, and it's misleading to spin it that way. It's a case of rights of the parent versus rights of the child. The fact that an abortion is involved is really irrelevant. This same court case could be about any child insisting on the right to refuse any medical treatment (or life choice) that her parents want to force on her.

Online Zeitgeist

Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #256 on: February 20, 2013, 07:21:14 PM »
This is an illogical argument because the situation isn't symmetrical.

It wasn't an argument. I stated it was my belief, which I prefaced I wasn't drawing absolute conclusions. It is simply my belief that it is disingenuous of a group calling itself 'pro-choice' not supporting both ends of the choice. The support doesn't have to be financial, it can be moral support too.

Offline Saria

Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #257 on: February 20, 2013, 07:30:37 PM »
It wasn't an argument. I stated it was my belief, which I prefaced I wasn't drawing absolute conclusions. It is simply my belief that it is disingenuous of a group calling itself 'pro-choice' not supporting both ends of the choice. The support doesn't have to be financial, it can be moral support too.
It's an illogical belief, then.

Pro-choice groups already provide moral support to both sides of the choice. That's why they're called pro-choice and not pro-abortion. They're certainly not advocating for abortions. They're advocating for choice, whether that choice is to have an abortion or not.

In general, pro-choice groups don't just insist on allowing the choice. They insist that proper sex education should be available, as well we proper counselling - medical and otherwise - among many other support services for women and men on reproductive issues. The whole thing falls under the umbrella of "reproductive rights", which includes more than just the right reproduce or not - it also includes the right to knowledge and education to make informed choices. These services are standard in any abortion clinic. In other words, they already provide far more than just moral support.

Online Zeitgeist

Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #258 on: February 20, 2013, 07:32:50 PM »
It's an illogical belief, then.

Pro-choice groups already provide moral support to both sides of the choice. That's why they're called pro-choice and not pro-abortion. They're certainly not advocating for abortions. They're advocating for choice, whether that choice is to have an abortion or not.

The we are in complete agreement! Perhaps I said it clumsily, but that is all I really meant.

Offline Trieste

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Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #259 on: March 09, 2013, 08:14:33 AM »
This isn't particularly about rape in general so much as it's touching back on the stupidity around this whole debate. I was reading this article about Arkansas and came across this part:

Quote
Kandi Cox, who had an abortion 20 years ago when she was 19, now heads Abba Adoption, an agency that offers support for women and teens who choose adoption rather than abortion for their unborn child.

"This is a day of celebration within our state, where we can say that we as the state of Arkansas, we stand for life," Cox told CNN affiliate KARK-TV. "We're going to continue to fight until Arkansas stays a solid state for life."

So at one point, she thought the best decision for her would be to terminate her pregnancy. If anyone stood in her way, they apparently did not do so in a way that stopped her. Why is it okay for her to disallow others access to the same services she has had? There is some argument (I guess) for someone who is utterly idealistic and zomg save the babies, but an anti-choice stance from someone who has taken advantage of pro-choice legislation and policies just seems to me like it's the height of hypocrisy. "Now that my life is easier, I'm going to actively work to make everyone else's life harder!" Not only that but if you go to the website of her foundation, there is a link on the left side advertising birth mother info - which I personally find to be creepy.

What. the fuck.

Offline Kythia

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Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #260 on: March 09, 2013, 08:20:48 AM »
In what crazy mixed up world is "Kandi Cox" not a porn star.  I think that's the true tragedy here.

OT though, I dunno.  People can change their mind.

Offline Trieste

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Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #261 on: March 09, 2013, 08:28:58 AM »
>.>

I... I didn't even ... Kythia, you're kind of a bad influence. :P

The part that I have trouble with is that it's apparently okay for her to be able to change her mind but not other people.

Offline BadForm

Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #262 on: March 09, 2013, 09:17:05 AM »
Trieste - while I myself am very much pro-choice, I will offer an argument that might suggest a way Porno Cox is not a hypocrite. Specifically, it may only be that going through the experience of having an abortion let her learn how wrong abortions are. That would not be hypocrisy, but comparing someone who had previously lacked knowledge with someone who has gained knowledge. She may herself feel she was wrong to have had an abortion too and deeply regret her lack of knowledge that prevented her making the wrong decision back then. Again, even if her attitude and knowledge has changed, personally I am pro-choice and disagree with her.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #263 on: March 09, 2013, 11:37:16 AM »
So at one point, she thought the best decision for her would be to terminate her pregnancy. If anyone stood in her way, they apparently did not do so in a way that stopped her. Why is it okay for her to disallow others access to the same services she has had? There is some argument (I guess) for someone who is utterly idealistic and zomg save the babies, but an anti-choice stance from someone who has taken advantage of pro-choice legislation and policies just seems to me like it's the height of hypocrisy. "Now that my life is easier, I'm going to actively work to make everyone else's life harder!" Not only that but if you go to the website of her foundation, there is a link on the left side advertising birth mother info - which I personally find to be creepy.

What. the fuck.

This is actually very depressingly common, and rooted in basic psychology. We reason very differently about "distant" problems than about "near" ones - in particular, distant problems tend to get most of the abstract thought and actual reasoning, while near problems tend to default to emotional or gut-reaction solutions.

Offline Saria

Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #264 on: March 09, 2013, 06:23:44 PM »
I don't know if you know this, Trieste, but did you know that Roe herself, as in Roe v. Wade - that Roe - is a pro-life activist now?

In her defence, though, she always was an idiot. And technically she never had an abortion - Roe v. Wade took so long that she gave birth, and put the kid up for adoption (she ultimately had 3 kids, 2 put up for adoption, and the third taken from her and raised by her mother after she became a lesbian (she was "cured" of that later)).

Offline Trieste

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Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #265 on: March 09, 2013, 07:02:37 PM »
I do know that. She has been the poster child for anti-choice folks for a while now...

I agree that she also comes across as a moron. :P

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #266 on: March 09, 2013, 08:17:53 PM »
Unfortunately we don't get to choose which case gets put forth, despite the many others that probably could've served as that landmark case.

Offline Mithlomwen

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Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #267 on: April 22, 2013, 09:44:26 AM »
I.....just.....

Read article here.

Quote
Kansas Bill Mandates Sterilization for Post-Abortion Women
May 18, 2012
By Orbson Rice

Amidst the latest wave of anti-abortion legislation, the 69-page Kansas bill may be the most controversial. If passed, women in Kansas will be forced to undergo a tubal ligation within 6-months of having an abortion. Tubal ligation or “tube tying”, is a surgical procedure that permanently prevents the patient from becoming pregnant in the future. The hotly debated measure was defended by Kansas Governor Sam Brownback:

    “Abortion is murder, but until we can change the [U.S.] Supreme Court’s decision on the matter it’s still legal. However, just because it is legal does not mean it should be used as it is today – as birth control. We are told that the decision to abort a child is the most difficult a woman will ever make. If she goes through with the abortion then she obviously believes that she is not mentally able to raise a child, and she is too selfish to give the child to a deserving family through adoption. If a woman is not taking responsibility to either care for the child or give him or her up for adoption, then she should not be trusted with that responsibility in the future.”

Though the sterilization measure has ignited mass protests, Governor Brownback has refused to back down. When asked whether women should be punished for life for choosing to have an abortion, Brownback responded, “Well, her child was punished for life by her decision to kill him or her, I think it is only fair that we not reward her carelessness and irresponsibility.” Brownback further incited protestors when he spoke on the issue of abortion after rape or incest. According to Brownback, “The perpetrator’s crime was his action and he should pay for that. The woman’s action is to have the abortion. That was her decision, and she should pay for that.”

Brownback has stated that he will sign the bill as soon as it reaches his desk. The Kansas bill is yet another in a string of anti-abortion laws spreading throughout the country. States are forcing women to have medically unnecessary ultrasounds, instituting new taxes on abortions, allowing doctors to withhold medical information that might lead to an abortion and even permitting doctors to lie to their patients about abortions causing breast cancer. Mississippi went so far as to institute a 270-day waiting period requirement  before being able to have an abortion. Unfortunately, Brownback is optimistic that the bill will soon become law soon and he will be able to get back to his regular duties which include monitoring the comments of teenager girls on Twitter.

I'm not understanding how in the hell this could even be legal?  There is no mandatory sterilization for sex offenders.....but yet, a woman who chooses to have an abortion will be forced to end her chances of ever having a child in the future? 

There is seriously something wrong with the mindset of our elected officials.   >:(

Online Callie Del NoireTopic starter

Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #268 on: April 22, 2013, 09:57:44 AM »
To quote one of my friends..

"REALLY?"

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #269 on: April 22, 2013, 10:17:50 AM »
I can see Kansas will be losing some female voting members.  I wouldn't live in a state that forces me to undergo an unwanted, unnecessarily medical procedure because of their morale code.  I also wouldn't practice medicine or nursing in a state that did so.

Offline consortium11

Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #270 on: April 22, 2013, 10:29:01 AM »
I try to be balanced in debates about abortion and the like. Personally I'm pro-choice within certain time limits but I'm very reluctant to do what people on both sides of the debate do and demonise the opposition. People who have abortions are not murderers but people who have a genuinely held belief that a fetus is a living being... a child basically... are simply trying to prevent what they genuinely see as murder rather than "demanding to control women's bodies" or the like.

But this?

This is just fucking evil.

Offline Trieste

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Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #271 on: April 22, 2013, 10:40:57 AM »
I am not sure of the source, but my sociology professor mentioned in class that taking away someone's right to reproduce is actually an internationally recognized no-no. Based on that, I did a quick Google and I think it might be codified in a convention (Geneva and Cairo were both mentioned). Forced sterilization is a human rights violation, obviously, but some things that we think of as human rights are not always codified. I think this one is codified.

Offline consortium11

Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #272 on: April 22, 2013, 11:04:26 AM »
I am not sure of the source, but my sociology professor mentioned in class that taking away someone's right to reproduce is actually an internationally recognized no-no. Based on that, I did a quick Google and I think it might be codified in a convention (Geneva and Cairo were both mentioned). Forced sterilization is a human rights violation, obviously, but some things that we think of as human rights are not always codified. I think this one is codified.

I'm not sure a general rule is codified. The UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities specifically prohibits the coerced sterilisation of the disabled but that's the only codified example I know of.

From what I recall the Cairo conference in 1994 merely included an acknowledgement from governments that reproductive rights arose out of human rights and that forced sterilisation should not be allowed for population control. In a situation like this where the reason for the coerced sterilisation isn't population control I don't think it in and of itself can be cited.

Offline Scribbles

Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #273 on: April 22, 2013, 11:12:50 AM »
I don't know whether I should be crying or laughing hysterically... That is just so incredibly sad and utterly insane at the same time.

How could this law even be considered seeing as it basically forces people to undergo unwanted and unnecessary surgery as punishment? Sounds more like torture than anything. If it succeeded, which is highly doubtful, wouldn't it open the door to a long line of fairly grisly possibilities?

Imagine, a politician could create a bill which reads, "Should a legislator write a law which fails to meet constitutional muster, said legislator shall be forced to undergo surgery whereby his balls are handily lopped off and served to him on a silver platter."

Offline Trieste

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Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #274 on: April 22, 2013, 11:18:26 AM »
I'm not sure a general rule is codified. The UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities specifically prohibits the coerced sterilisation of the disabled but that's the only codified example I know of.

From what I recall the Cairo conference in 1994 merely included an acknowledgement from governments that reproductive rights arose out of human rights and that forced sterilisation should not be allowed for population control. In a situation like this where the reason for the coerced sterilisation isn't population control I don't think it in and of itself can be cited.

I was hoping that you knew something about it, or someone else posting in the topic. It's something I have to do more research on, and I simply do not have time right now to hunt it down. *just sighs*