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Author Topic: Lumpenproles On the Move  (Read 1268 times)

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Offline OldSchoolGamerTopic starter

Lumpenproles On the Move
« on: June 28, 2012, 01:55:38 PM »
http://www.buzzfeed.com/daves4/people-moving-to-canada-because-of-obamacare

Yes indeed, they're moving to Canada to escape American tyranny.  Because of course, patriotic God-fearing Canadians would never allow themselves to be taken over by the Islamocommiefascist idea of socialized medicine.

Don't let the doorknob hit ya...

Offline Revolverman

Re: Lumpenproles On the Move
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2012, 03:27:54 PM »
To be fair, many of those ended up being in jest, and some people completely failed to notice that.

Offline OldSchoolGamerTopic starter

Re: Lumpenproles On the Move
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2012, 03:36:04 PM »
To be fair, many of those ended up being in jest, and some people completely failed to notice that.

No doubt a few were.  But believe me, I've seen enough right-wingers comment on message boards to know that at least half were serious statements.

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Re: Lumpenproles On the Move
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2012, 05:19:12 PM »
http://www.buzzfeed.com/daves4/people-moving-to-canada-because-of-obamacare

Yes indeed, they're moving to Canada to escape American tyranny.  Because of course, patriotic God-fearing Canadians would never allow themselves to be taken over by the Islamocommiefascist idea of socialized medicine.

Don't let the doorknob hit ya...

I'm not sure if this belongs in P&R, or in the Hilarity thread. 

By the way, have they filled out proper immigration papers and waited for the review boards to stamp them through?  Last time I heard, the process took at least a year, and that was with a girl I knew trying to emigrate to be with her S.O.  What about that whole employment situation:  Are they legally able to obtain employment in Canada?

Offline AndyZ

Re: Lumpenproles On the Move
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2012, 12:03:29 AM »
Canada has socialized medicine.  Pretty sure this is bogus.

People have been leaving America in droves of late, though.

Quote from: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-11/facebook-co-founder-saverin-gives-up-u-s-citizenship-before-ipo.html
Renouncing citizenship is an option chosen by increasing numbers of Americans. A record 1,780 gave up their U.S. passports last year compared with 235 in 2008, according to government records.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Lumpenproles On the Move
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2012, 02:16:57 AM »
Canada has socialized medicine.  Pretty sure this is bogus.

People have been leaving America in droves of late, though.

I am saddened by that quote AndyZ.. just.. saddened.


Offline RadiantMind

Re: Lumpenproles On the Move
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2012, 03:45:33 AM »
Canada has socialized medicine.  Pretty sure this is bogus.

People have been leaving America in droves of late, though.

Socialized Medicine is, in my mind, a better option that what the the citizens of the US has been used to. And this comes from a guy who spent half his life in the US. After I moved to denmark, I could never, ever move to a country where health insurance wasn't universal

Offline AndyZ

Re: Lumpenproles On the Move
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2012, 03:52:10 AM »
Socialized Medicine is, in my mind, a better option that what the the citizens of the US has been used to. And this comes from a guy who spent half his life in the US. After I moved to denmark, I could never, ever move to a country where health insurance wasn't universal

The issue is that we don't really have socialized medicine.  What we have is a tax on people who don't have medical insurance.  So if you're unemployed like me, and don't have enough money to make ends meet, let alone buy health insurance, you're given an extra tax on top of things as if that would help.

You probably saw some of these, which would explain your confusion:

Obama on mandates

Obama against the individual mandate to buy insurance

However, you'll want to look into the individual mandate and how it actually works.

Offline OldSchoolGamerTopic starter

Re: Lumpenproles On the Move
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2012, 10:35:04 AM »
The issue is that we don't really have socialized medicine.  What we have is a tax on people who don't have medical insurance.  So if you're unemployed like me, and don't have enough money to make ends meet, let alone buy health insurance, you're given an extra tax on top of things as if that would help.

Well, we couldn't have socialized medicine here in America.  Think of the rationing and death panels and government bureaucrats making life and death decisions!  No, much better to deny care to those who can't afford it (which isn't rationing, of course--really it's not) and leave decisions to corporate bureaucrats.  You know, for the love of FREEDOM!

I think Obamacare is a step in the right direction, but it's not the best outcome, by far.  That would be a single payer system.  But what do you think we are--a bunch of commie Nazis?

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Lumpenproles On the Move
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2012, 12:02:34 PM »
Well, we couldn't have socialized medicine here in America.  Think of the rationing and death panels and government bureaucrats making life and death decisions!  No, much better to deny care to those who can't afford it (which isn't rationing, of course--really it's not) and leave decisions to corporate bureaucrats.  You know, for the love of FREEDOM!

I think Obamacare is a step in the right direction, but it's not the best outcome, by far.  That would be a single payer system.  But what do you think we are--a bunch of commie Nazis?

Obamacare is what we get when rampant (and rabid) partisanship is more important than coming together and building a consensus that works best for the country at large.

Problem is.. I don't see how we can fix the partisan attitude that both parties seem hopelessly mire. 

Offline OldSchoolGamerTopic starter

Re: Lumpenproles On the Move
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2012, 12:57:04 PM »
Obamacare is what we get when rampant (and rabid) partisanship is more important than coming together and building a consensus that works best for the country at large.

Problem is.. I don't see how we can fix the partisan attitude that both parties seem hopelessly mire.

Well, most of the problem is we have a population that Faux News has frightened so badly they don't dare remove their noses from the corporate rectum for fear they'll be turned into starving socialists like everyone in Europe, Japan and Australia.

We could have had a single-payer system, with the right to private practice of medicine and the right to purchase private medical services guaranteed by law.  The poor could have been taken care of, the middle class could have kept their existing insurance, and the rich could have still bought whatever level of care they wanted to pay for.  Instead, thanks to fearmongering and subservience to the elite, we got Obamacare.

Offline Serephino

Re: Lumpenproles On the Move
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2012, 02:24:06 PM »
Yeah, I remember a single payer government program was part of the original proposal.  Democrats fought hard to keep it, but it was just too Socialist.  It would give the government too much control over healthcare.  There would be government death panels.  No one would've been forced to use said program, but still....  Although, to be fair, Medicare is a pretty muchly fucked up mess right now.  It's only slightly better than nothing. 

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Re: Lumpenproles On the Move
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2012, 02:50:31 PM »
     I'm thinking of leaving the country, but it won't be because of national health care.  I'd say the national program is one step in the right general direction, at least. 

     It'll be because of all the other things we don't have.  Higher education without massive debt...  Efficient transportation infrastructure with good coverage in so many major cities (huge, huge, vital).  More substantial equality in civil rights for half the country -- not that it's so perfect elsewhere, but we really don't have that either.  A care in the education guides for really learning something of the rest of the world, perhaps.  A touch less exceptionalism and "God is on our side", and a touch more laughing at ourselves and the hubris of money and empire and "progress."

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Lumpenproles On the Move
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2012, 04:03:40 PM »
A lot of the civility and bipartisanship died out in the change of leadership that occurred during the mid-90s. When Newt Gingrich took over as speaker, you have a sudden change in policies after he (and those that followed him) changed the rules by which the house ran. Instead of seniority determining leadership of the various committees the 'plums' were given to party members. Rules were changed to allow bills to be cobbled together and bulldozed thru by the majority with little or no review or debate. The edge required for a fillabuster in the senate was redifined again and again.

The GOP made it a point to curtail ALL contact with the opposition as a party. You didn't stay after work to talk/chat/glad hand with your peers on the other side. Traditional 'networking' actions like eating together, the after hours cocktail sessions and informal 'interest groups' were all shut down. The GOP bolted out of town as soon as they can, making it a point to work the MINIMUM they had to and not letting the 'Potomac' taint them. Newt's successor was even more blunt, setting his whip to make sure the party line was the ONLY way representatives could vote and that access to the office of the Speaker was DIRECTLY tied to your donations to the party, what you could do for HIM and how 'loyal' to HIS partyline you were.

When the Democrats came back in.. they didn't do too much to fix the problems. One of my most vivid memories of Nancy Pelosi was her publicly humiliating a handful of GOP holdouts on some vote.. while in the SAME press conference ignoring that in addition to the 9 or so GOP hold outs there were like 5 Democratic hold outs.

We need to push our representatives to restore the old rules of order, conduct and behavior. Renew the awareness that just because you aren't in the same party that you're enemies. You all came to congress for the same reason.. to do good for your voters.. the guy across the party line did the same thing. They just have a diffferent approach.

America's interests I have found..are typically somewhere in the middle rather than on one party's side.

Offline Valerian

Re: Lumpenproles On the Move
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2012, 04:30:45 PM »
The issue is that we don't really have socialized medicine.  What we have is a tax on people who don't have medical insurance.  So if you're unemployed like me, and don't have enough money to make ends meet, let alone buy health insurance, you're given an extra tax on top of things as if that would help.
Not everyone is going to have to pay for the insurance, though.  If an individual's gross income is 133% or less of the federal poverty line ($14,856 per year), then they're not required to pay anything.  You'd have to sign up for Medicaid, but that would be at no cost because part of the plan also greatly expands Medicaid coverage.  If your income is up to 400% of the poverty line ($44,680), then you're eligible for reduced rates on a sliding pay scale.

Offline AndyZ

Re: Lumpenproles On the Move
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2012, 04:52:57 PM »
Well, most of the problem is we have a population that Faux News has frightened so badly they don't dare remove their noses from the corporate rectum for fear they'll be turned into starving socialists like everyone in Europe, Japan and Australia.

We could have had a single-payer system, with the right to private practice of medicine and the right to purchase private medical services guaranteed by law.  The poor could have been taken care of, the middle class could have kept their existing insurance, and the rich could have still bought whatever level of care they wanted to pay for.  Instead, thanks to fearmongering and subservience to the elite, we got Obamacare.

I really don't want a single-payer system.  You may want public insurance, but I've seen public schools, public swimming pools, public toilets, and so on.

Once you set things up so that the masses have a particular good for free, it becomes a piece of crap, while the elites get private schools, private swimming pools, and so on.  It widens the gap between rich and poor.

Democrats talk about wanting to fix these things, but when they send their own children to private schools, do you think they're going to work very hard to fix the single payer system so you don't have "death panels?"

Obamacare is what we get when rampant (and rabid) partisanship is more important than coming together and building a consensus that works best for the country at large.

Problem is.. I don't see how we can fix the partisan attitude that both parties seem hopelessly mire.

See, it's worse than that.  We have the Supreme Court backing the idea that the government can tax you for not purchasing a service.

If you don't like big oil, imagine being taxed for not buying oil.

If you don't like big business, imagine being taxed for not shopping at a particular store.

If you like abortions, imagine being taxed for getting them.

That's the door that's been opened up.  We've already got the overuse of executive orders to the point where Romney talks about just sending a waiver to the health care bill to all 50 states via executive order if he's elected.  That's what we've got from executive orders being abused.

With a two party system, it's very easy to enter a nuclear option where one group claims, "Nobody minds if the other group did X, so we'll do it too."  The party who did it first has outrage but without any moral standing, and the party in power just thinks of it as revenge, so it becomes common.  The only real way to stop these things is when the first guy does it.

Yeah, I remember a single payer government program was part of the original proposal.  Democrats fought hard to keep it, but it was just too Socialist.  It would give the government too much control over healthcare.  There would be government death panels.  No one would've been forced to use said program, but still....  Although, to be fair, Medicare is a pretty muchly fucked up mess right now.  It's only slightly better than nothing. 


We had 60 Democrats in the Senate.  60, which is how many you need to overcome a filibuster.  It's easy to blame the Republicans, but when the Republicans can't even argue because you can vote to shut them up, then it's not their fault.

And in some ways, we actually do have death panels:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/06/psa-blood-tests-prostate-screening_n_999382.html

WASHINGTON Those PSA blood tests that check for prostate cancer do more harm than good and healthy men should no longer receive them as part of routine cancer screening, a government panel is recommending.

People probably remember similar things with mammograms, but enough women spoke up that the government panel shut up.

Now, you actually go and talk to your doctor, and they do want these tests.  They want to be able to check if you have prostate cancer or not.  If you have a hunch that you have prostate cancer, certainly you want to catch it at its early stages.

Here's an article written well after the government panel thing which gives some basics about how useful they actually are: http://www.renalandurologynews.com/psa-screening-cuts-risk-of-metastatic-prostate-cancer/article/247438/

Insurance companies, however, can simply point to these government surveys and decide that all PSAs are frivolous, and not pay for them.  Take a look at the huge number of people denied by Medicare and tell me that a single-payer system wouldn't do the same thing.

Not everyone is going to have to pay for the insurance, though.  If an individual's gross income is 133% or less of the federal poverty line ($14,856 per year), then they're not required to pay anything.  You'd have to sign up for Medicaid, but that would be at no cost because part of the plan also greatly expands Medicaid coverage.  If your income is up to 400% of the poverty line ($44,680), then you're eligible for reduced rates on a sliding pay scale.

I'll keep that in mind if I can't get a job soon.  Thanks.