Tibet and the Olympic

[Sugarman (hal)]

Is there any sentiment to boycott the Olympic in the world today?

opinions?

[Humble Scribe]

If there was, they wouldn't have awarded the games to China in the first place. It's not like the invasion of Tibet is recent news.

[Celestial Goblin]

There are lots of abuses in China that sicken me and I believe the democratic countries are immoral by not exerting more pressure on the Chinese goverment.

Amongst things that China inflicts on it's citizens are:

- no protection for injured workers and no safety standarts in such hazardous jobs as mining and manufacturing.
- use of prisoner labor
- use of child labor
- censorship of the internet to the point of restricting acces to news services or sites about religion.
- complete crack down on internet porn, including jailing a woman for running a 'sex webcam' service and long jail sentences for website operators.
- police and other goverment forces are officially or unofficially allowed to beat non-agressive, often innocent people.
- people evicted from their houses at goverment's whim, sometimes not given a new place to live.
- govermental limits on how much children one can have. Women are subjected to forced abortions if they disobey.
- ecological damage on great scale, coupled with evicting people living in the region.
- cruel and unnecesary slaughter of stray animals and pets whose owners don't pay very high fees.

*And* Tibet of course. And there are some really horrible things done to people there.

[RubySlippers]

Hahahahahahahahahaha! What do you expect the United States to do you do know China and most of the OPEC nations among others own a large portion of our national debt. We aren't going to do anything to China save maybe bitch a little.

But you folks can boycott the games and give the US more chances to get medals. 

[MagicalPen]

America could not exist with out China, and vice versa. The Consumer/Manufactorer relationship is too great for us to 'boycott' Chinese goods and go elsewhere. I think its something above the 50% mark as far as what percentage of good come from China to America.

Don't the Chinese also have Death Sentences to people caught smuggling drugs? Same with thieves?

Thats communism for you though - works great on paper but can not work in its ideal form in reality.

[Celestial Goblin]

America could not exist with out China, and vice versa. The Consumer/Manufactorer relationship is too great for us to 'boycott' Chinese goods and go elsewhere. I think its something above the 50% mark as far as what percentage of good come from China to America.

That's sadly true and not just for America. China cornered the market on many type of goods and consumers themselves have no chance to do anything about it.

Don't the Chinese also have Death Sentences to people caught smuggling drugs? Same with thieves?

Yes. Shot in the back of the head for drug dealers, not sure about thieves. I also remember they charge the family with the cost of the bullet used. *sigh*

Thats communism for you though - works great on paper but can not work in its ideal form in reality.

Current China has little to do with 'communism' when it comes to economy.
It's still both totalitarian and communist in how it controls it's citizens, but economy-wise it's closer to the unrestrained capitalism of 19 century industrial revolution.

There's a word for a system that combines restrictions of individual freedom, merciless 'do or die' economy, state ownership of key industries and a strong militaristic bent... *shiver*
I hope China won't end up there.

[Dingo]

Going to play devil's advocate here.

There's a word for a system that combines restrictions of individual freedom, merciless 'do or die' economy, state ownership of key industries and a strong militaristic bent... *shiver*
I hope China won't end up there.

Isn't that the same as the USA government, except that the key industries own the state ?

Don't the Chinese also have Death Sentences to people caught smuggling drugs?

Yes, they do, and while nobody deserves a death sentence in my opinion (I'm actually a fan of lifelong hard labour), punishing crimes harshly works.

- no protection for injured workers and no safety standarts in such hazardous jobs as mining and manufacturing.

That's because we have put such a high demand on China's cheap labourforce, that now their economy is growing, they almost have to.

- use of prisoner labor

Great, they should do that everywhere. Preferably the jobs nobody else wants to do.

- use of child labor

This was in incident of local corruption, and firmly rejected by the Chinese govermnent. IIRC they shot those involved.

- complete crack down on internet porn, including jailing a woman for running a 'sex webcam' service and long jail sentences for website operators.

Decency, this is not Europe we are talking about. And I can see where they are coming from.

- people evicted from their houses at goverment's whim, sometimes not given a new place to live.

The government does offer you a new place to live. But many people refuse to go live somewhere 2000 miles away (even if there are jobs there). So when you refuse the government, they stop you in helping. Second problem here is that the corruption is again bad, but they are working on it.

- govermental limits on how much children one can have. Women are subjected to forced abortions if they disobey.

Often forced to abortion by the village they live in, as penalties are subjected to the entire village and not the family disobeying the policy. Also, the one child policy, is .. in my opinion, one of *the* best options that China ever put forwards.

- ecological damage on great scale, coupled with evicting people living in the region.

Yes, but who is to blame, they are catching up, and we (the western world) did the ecological damage too.

- cruel and unnecesary slaughter of stray animals and pets whose owners don't pay very high fees.

Cheap solution, imagine 1 billion chinese all with 2 cats and a dog, and the ammount of shit that would give.

*And* Tibet of course. And there are some really horrible things done to people there.

Horrible things, by both sides. Allthough I don't agree with their reasons for occupying Tibet.




Now, yes, in a way I am a fan of the way the Chinese government handles things. I do agree that, perhaps they could take things a bit more subtle, but one should be very careful in reading the news printed in our European newspapers as things should always be seen from two sides. The West is a propaganda machine too, we just hide it behind having a lot of newstations all saying the same thing, perhaps in different words. There, the government just says what they want to say. Same thing.

The bit about religion I think is the smartest thing there is. It's not any religion they are actively banning, it's a few very specific ones. To the rest they are showing more leeway every time.

Now ... from the days at University where two students from the Pekin University where living next door, I had a chat with them, and, while they were the children of the elite, they did have some critical thoughts, but they also agreed on one thing. "What else ?"

The same question you here from people who have lived in China. "What else ?"

They are pointing towards how a country with an almost single nationality, interdependence, several different languages, almost one culture, and billions of people has to be run. At least with their current government they have some influence, compared to their ancestors who had to work with Emperors and wanna-be emperors.

[Sugarman (hal)]

I thought I'd add this as a stimulus to discussion... yes its one sided... but couldn't find a pro-Chinese point of view.

http://www.racefortibet.org/

[Aelfric]

I hate to say this folks; we hate China for being today what the western world was a hundred years ago. Many of the complaints listed here were considered normal for us and often Europe in the late 1800's.

Face it. They are growing and evolving faster than we did. While I abhor what they have done I can honestly see that they are leaps ahead of where they were even two decades ago. Anyone here remember Tiananmen Square? This is mild. They quelled a violent protest, from all accounts. Were they a little too rough? Maybe. Not twelve years ago an entire regiment of Canadian troops were disbanded because members tortured a civilian. We are often no better.

Give them time to learn, and I bet in our lifetime we will see a true democratic China.

Aelfric

[Celestial Goblin]

Dino, I won't bother quoting and responding to every of your points.
Basically, you support lifelong labor as punishment for criminals, forced abortion, persecution of religions and 'moral' censorship(what the hell are you doing on this site then?) and such...

There's no way I can respond without insulting you and meaning it.

Your super-lucky Chinese friends ask 'what else?'
What else? Build a country without resorting to acts of barbarism and without sacrificing innocent people, that's what. None of the things done is necessary for survival.
All of those things are inflicted on unlucky people to enrich the ruling elite.

I hate to say this folks; we hate China for being today what the western world was a hundred years ago. Many of the complaints listed here were considered normal for us and often Europe in the late 1800's.

Two wrongs don't make a right, friend.
Of course Europe in the 19th century commited atrocities that it never should have. Neither should Chinese be allowed to commit atrocities now, in the 21st century.
It really is sad that during 19th century there was no one to stop those things.

Face it. They are growing and evolving faster than we did. While I abhor what they have done I can honestly see that they are leaps ahead of where they were even two decades ago. Anyone here remember Tiananmen Square? This is mild. They quelled a violent protest, from all accounts. Were they a little too rough? Maybe. Not twelve years ago an entire regiment of Canadian troops were disbanded because members tortured a civilian. We are often no better.

Tiananmen square was 'a little too rough' in the same way mount Fuji is a 'big pimple'.
I don't know about the Canadians, but if they were disbanded for what they did, then the goverment did not endorse torture and punished those who did it.

For goodness sake, families of those people murdered at Tiananmen are still alive... I can't believe you dismiss it so casually.

Give them time to learn, and I bet in our lifetime we will see a true democratic China.

The more pressure will be exerted on their goverment(wisely of course), the faster we'll see normalcy there.
Of course I'm not advocating war or a complete economic blockade. Of course I want them to grow and evolve without playing 'new colonialism'. But not condemning the inhuman deeds commited by their gov means teaching a bad lesson instead of a good one.

[Sugarman (hal)]

We most also be aware their modernization of their Military including plans of a new nuclear navy... subs and all. China his big plans for its future. We have less then 10 years to put any influence on them I'm afraid.

[Aelfric]

Of course Europe in the 19th century commited atrocities that it never should have. Neither should Chinese be allowed to commit atrocities now, in the 21st century.
It really is sad that during 19th century there was no one to stop those things.

I do not want to degenerate into baseless arguments over what for me is essentially a philosophical point. No, sadly, in the 19th century the "world police" were too busy killing each other to invade foreign countries and 'save' them from their barbarism.

Tiananmen square was 'a little too rough' in the same way mount Fuji is a 'big pimple'.
I don't know about the Canadians, but if they were disbanded for what they did, then the goverment did not endorse torture and punished those who did it.

For goodness sake, families of those people murdered at Tiananmen are still alive... I can't believe you dismiss it so casually.
The more pressure will be exerted on their goverment(wisely of course), the faster we'll see normalcy there.
Of course I'm not advocating war or a complete economic blockade. Of course I want them to grow and evolve without playing 'new colonialism'. But not condemning the inhuman deeds commited by their gov means teaching a bad lesson instead of a good one.

Not belaboring the point what I said was: "This is mild. They quelled a violent protest, from all accounts." I was referring to the incident in Tibet. Tiananmen Square was an abomination. I remember watching the news and seeing tanks drive over peaceful demonstrators. The incident in Tibet was to stop rioting and violent protests. Not quite the same thing.

[Sugarman (hal)]

We must remember those day who riot in Tibet don't do it in a vacuum... no it's over years of oppression and a attack on the foundation of their religious and temporal freedoms over 50 years by the invaders. Remember 1 million Tibetans were killed and replaced by the same amount Chinese.

[Aelfric]

It is an awful circumstance, and I do not wish to imply that I condone China or it decisions in this regard. I merely wish to point out that they are progressing as a country; and are making massive improvements to the way they handle internal and external affairs.

They still have a long road ahead of them, although at the rate they are gaining, it will not the century (or more) that it took us.

[Celestial Goblin]

I do not want to degenerate into baseless arguments over what for me is essentially a philosophical point. No, sadly, in the 19th century the "world police" were too busy killing each other to invade foreign countries and 'save' them from their barbarism.

I meant the industrialised western nations, actually. We did a lot of bad things in the past, but there was no one to stop us from doing them. (or our ancestors to be exact)

Not belaboring the point what I said was: "This is mild. They quelled a violent protest, from all accounts." I was referring to the incident in Tibet. Tiananmen Square was an abomination. I remember watching the news and seeing tanks drive over peaceful demonstrators. The incident in Tibet was to stop rioting and violent protests. Not quite the same thing.

Yes, this is milder than Tianmen. And putting a woman in jail for posting naked photos is mild compared to boiling money counterfiters alive. (a medieval Chinese practice, IIRC)

China is changing for the better and that's inevitable. But every bit of(non violent, diplomatic) effort can save many people from death or misery.
Anyone who wishes to actually defend all of these decisions should ask themselves if they'd want to take place of those affected by them.

Lastly, I don't think that nuclear submarines and a huge army will make that much of a difference. Russia lost the cold war, remember. Any serious confrontation with Chinese dictatorship and totalitarism will be either economical or cultural, because wars are too costly. An important 'weapon' will be the willingness of people in the west to actually give a damn about the lot of others.

I merely wish to point out that they are progressing as a country; and are making massive improvements to the way they handle internal and external affairs.

True.
The Chinese people themselves are not really different than us. Especially the younger generation are the same kind of hard-studying, MMORPG-playing, music-listening, guys and girls like we are.
It's the goverment that needs to evolve and it's indeed doing so, but not always taking the best possible way.

As I said, I believe it's inevitable for China to become democratic and not a tyranny. What's at stake is how much suffering will be inflicted on the way there.

[Elvi]

Does history repeat itself?.....no of course not, that's why everyone simply forgets even recent history and never bloody well learn.

http://www.feldgrau.com/1936olymp.html

Shortly, Hitler and the German Nationalist Socialist Party would be in power in Germany. The 1936 Olympic games would be Hitler's opportunity to showcase his vision of a new and powerful Germany to everyone. He could now extol his vision of the virtues of German Nationalist Socialism to the world - that Germany was now once more a leading economic engine of the world, that Germany was a militarily powerful nation and growing in strength every day, that Germany had shaken off the despair and misery of the Great Depression faster than anyone else, and most Germans were happier with their standard of living than anyone else in the world.

Now I am not saying that China is the 'new Germany', infact I am not even going to get into all of it.
What I will say however, is that 'we' turned a blind eye to what was happening in Germany, can we really afford to turn a blind eye to what happens in China (or in any other country, for that matter)?

[kongming]

I'm not going to quote, merely respond to a few things people have said:

*Re: Death penalty in China
Rape, drug smuggling/dealing, murder and political corruption are all punished by the death penalty. You have one chance at an appeal, and if that fails, you go immediately to the soccer field for your sentence to be carried out. Do not pass go, do not collect 200 yuan.

Your family only pays for the bullet if they want your body back.

Note: there was a slave ring being run, and that was shut down. The guards were all given life. The person running it was given death. He was the son of a council minister of some variety. So at least they didn't let "you're related to someone moderately powerful" influence things. Unlike most countries. For instance, where your dad can buy your way through university, get you out of military draft and driving offences, and also have you made into president.

They have also decided to make their executions more humane. Pity they can't abolish them completely, but there are small things to be thankful for. Now, a death sentence can be commuted down to a lesser penalty if there was questionable/insufficient evidence, a technicality of the kind that gets you off free in other countries, or whatever. Also, they are now beginning to use lethal injection, performed in execution buses. I'm not even kidding.

*Re: punishing crimes harshly works

Only to a degree. A few hundred years ago, a minister in China decided that minor infractions should be severely penalised, so as to make people so afraid that they would do nothing wrong - after all, if neglecting your duties for a day gets you killed, then who knows what murder could get you!

The result? A group of people were delayed from work due to the weather, or something similar. Once they realised they were already going to be killed, there was nothing to make them want to work with the system, and they had every reason to work against it. They formed a revolt, and there was a revolution. I'm willing to bet the minister ended up being killed, along with his family, and his ancestors dug up and mutilated. They're fond of that in revolutions.

The whole point of the law is not "to make people nice", it's to make people work with the system - if you actively work, and pay your taxes, you get health cover and so, if you get sick, you don't die. Likewise, you have money so you can buy your food instead of having to farm it yourself. You also get water and electricity. If you work against the system, by breaking the law, things get harder for you (fines, prison sentences and the like). If you have to kill people, it should only be for (from the system's point of view) the worst crime: rebellion. Because up until there, you need to be able to say "Stop! If you turn yourself in now, things won't be as bad. If you escalate the situation, we can make things worse for you." You don't want a situation where they go "I can't make things worse for myself. Jehova Jehova Jehova!" and lead a n armed rebellion.

[MagicalPen]

re: Chinese Military

China is looked to go global. What is the point of building a massive, modern army? To become the next US, the next Global Police. They're already in the game of buying up oil fields in the Mid East. How the international community will respond to a COMMUNIST country becoming a World Police Force (like the US is currently) should be interesting.

China is a corrupt country. You just have to have the right connections, 'father' has to be in a pretty high/powerful position. You could almost say is a police-run state, lots of what we take for granted don't exist in China. You can say that the young generation of China is similar to ours, but is it? Their government blocks access to numerous sites, bans various things. Their government TELLS them what they can and can't do.

[Dingo]

How the international community will respond to a COMMUNIST country becoming a World Police Force (like the US is currently) should be interesting.

Great, they can be put to great use in the middle east. No religious entanglements there. Also a great nation to put to work on the Israel / Palestine conflict, as they can at least be respected to be neutral.

When the US proudly proclaims it has no atom bombs in suitcases the world cheers. When China declares they want a nucleair submarine, the world boos. When Russia has completely rigged elections, the world cheers for "democracy", when you Americans have your version of it ... guess what .. the world cheers.

Silvestine

Basically, you support lifelong labor as punishment for criminals, forced abortion, persecution of religions and 'moral' censorship(what the hell are you doing on this site then?) and such...
There's no way I can respond without insulting you and meaning it.

To the first: argument. Yes, I think that putting criminals to work to at least earn their living, housing and more is a good way to deal with them.
Forced Abortion: I'm against it, but not against their policy of one child or the official way of enforcing it.
Persecution of religion. I am all against that. But I also am against the presence of religion in the government in any way. Religion has no place in government, nor should it have any say over government.
Moral censorship or breaking the law ? I object severely against the first, but, while I would likely protest against the contents of the law, I would obey it, or knowingly break it and face the consequences.

[MagicalPen]

You can't blame Americans for the way the country is run. I can tell you that I didn't vote for Bush, and if you look at who did, they're the rednecks and bible thumpers who live in the boons. Every major city, including Washington DC, voted for Kerry. The lesser of two Evils, in my opinion. I think American Politics needs a major overhaul - no more 60 year olds who like tradition, who have forefathers immersed in politics, who come from wealthy, powerful families. I'd much rather see a younger, more down to earth, person who isn't the legacy of some politician, and who isn't affiliated with a major religious group or corporation. Of course, that will never happen despite the 'American Democracy'.

BTW, America is a Democracy anymore. The Government infringes on numerous rights and continues to try and do so. They have plans that will turn the US into a Police State, where every citizen will have to carry a special ID that a Cop can scan - whenever - that will tell them EVERYTHING about that person. Not to mention all the gun laws they are trying to pass (mark my words, if Hillary Clinton [male, female, whatever IT is] becomes President, there will be Civil War over the Gun Laws she tries to impose).

Theres also something in the constitution about Taxes which pretty much states that a Citizen doesn't have to pay them or can not be jailed for not paying Taxes. But if you don't pay your taxes, you do go to Jail. Not too sure on the details of this one, but my coworker pointed it out to me the other day.

[Elvi]

Could we please try and keep this on topic and not another pro/con America?

We are talking here about the situation in Tibet and whether we should be putting political pressure upon them by boycotting the Olympics.

[Dingo]

The games should continue as is. Even the Dalai Lama says so. Nobody gains anything by boycotting the Games, least of all the Tibettans.

What would gain support is peaceful protests, as in a visible presence, without disturbing, during the Games, when the eyes of the world are looking on China.

It's an Asian country and the worst thing that can happen to an Asian, is be embarrassed by your own actions when you have guests.

[Celestial Goblin]

To the first: argument. Yes, I think that putting criminals to work to at least earn their living, housing and more is a good way to deal with them.

Might seem attractive option to either very naive people or to those employed as prison guard.
The problems with it are, to put it short:
- creation of a lobby of those who benefit from cheap prisoner work who will push for getting more people imprisoned. (it's similar in USA, by the way)
- existance of people who have no choice but to work hard for very little creates competition for normal workers and creates more possibility for corruption.
- *forcing* people to work would sooner or later require methods of coercion that would turn the whole operation into slavery. How do you make a prisoner work if they flat out refuse? Starve them? Beat them?

Forced Abortion: I'm against it, but not against their policy of one child or the official way of enforcing it.

If you support a policy that leads only to forced abortions then you support forced abortions.
And that's no less disgusting than people who'd want abortion banned and pregnant women put under state control.

Persecution of religion. I am all against that. But I also am against the presence of religion in the government in any way. Religion has no place in government, nor should it have any say over government.

Nice 'straw-man' here. Of course separation of church and state is necessary.
But the separation goes both ways.
Buddhists and Christians in China aren't trying to turn China into theocracy. They want to be left alone and they aren't.

Moral censorship or breaking the law ? I object severely against the first, but, while I would likely protest against the contents of the law, I would obey it, or knowingly break it and face the consequences.

(Way to say everything without saying nothing)
You mentioned before that you 'understand where they are coming from' and that 'it's not Europe', so I assumed you maybe think 'moral' censorship is less ridiculous and harmful there than here.

But since you mentioned 'protesting the contents of the law', that's what I'm talking about in regard of all the human rights abuses.
We can't help trough violence.
We can't help trough anything that would deny Chinese their democratic sovereignity.
We can't help trough isolating China completely.

We are talking here about the situation in Tibet and whether we should be putting political pressure upon them by boycotting the Olympics.

We can definitely help trough cultural and political pressure.
A boycott of Olympics won't do much by itself, but it's definitely worth to get the word out there.

Other good ways of making things better would be:
- pressuring politicians not to ignore the abuses
- like others already said, manifesting support for (Tibet/freedom of speech/workers/children/enviroment) in China itself, perhaps during the olympics.
- supporting Chinese own dissidents and groups who oppose the abuses(there's more of them than you think)
- not buying into the bullshit defending of abuses in China, at least not if you wouldn't want them to apply to your country as well.

[Apple of Eris]

A boycott of the olympics does nothing but punish the atheletes who participate in them.

You want an effective way to get the word out? Maybe threaten economic sanctions. Oh right, we can't because we want our $10 t-shirts made in china. Besides, the US already issued protests about Chinese human rights abuses, and you know what? The chinese can rightly point out our own rights abuses in Guantanamo, the fact that the US has, per capita the largest percentage of its population in prison, worldwide. In fact it is estimated that 1 in 11 men will end up in prison during their life, 1 in 4 if black. And yet we're passing judgement? Yeah, sure we're better than some, but we've a long way to go before pointing fingers.

Oh, and since I'm sure someone is going to start spouting off about how wonderful our prison system is and how the prisons are so nice and country club like, I suggest you go visit a prison first. I mean really visit one, talk to some people there, ask them what it's really like.

And as per the death penalty, something like 128 nations abolished the death penalty, and if I'm not mistaken, the US is the only major industialized western nation that still uses capital punishment. Horray.

And no, I'm not some go china advocate, but even the Dali Lama isn't calling for an independent china, just for more autonomy. Maybe instead of this we should be trying to stop the ethnic cleansing in Darfur or other parts of africa where decades of european colonialism have helped sow the seeds of the violent clashes that occur there to this day.

[Zakharra]

he chinese can rightly point out our own rights abuses in Guantanamo,

What abuses? As far as I know, the Red Cross and other world wide human rights people who are down there have no documented cases of human rights violations, or torture.

Except holding them 'illegally'