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Author Topic: Tibet and the Olympic  (Read 4319 times)

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Offline kongming

Re: Tibet and the Olympic
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2008, 03:32:49 AM »
What abuses? As far as I know, the Red Cross and other world wide human rights people who are down there have no documented cases of human rights violations, or torture.

I really hope that was a lame attempt at a joke.

Seriously. It's not hard to find information on it.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Tibet and the Olympic
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2008, 08:43:03 AM »
 No it's not because it is not being splashed all over the media here. And the media WOULD if they were true.  I'm reading the links you posted, and there are alleged, not documented cases of torture, but 'alleged' in them. They also detail the efforts to get the detainees into the US civil courts. Which would be a travesty of justice and very harmful to security. They are not US citizens and do not fall under US civil

 I do not think they are being tortured, but the term torture is very vague. That's my problem with it. Physical torture shouldn't be used, but they should be put under harsh conditions. IE extreme temperatures, lights, sleep deprivation, loud music and etc. Mentally, I say break the bastards.

 It could be said that they are being tortured that way, so what? Under some views, having them there is torture. The purpose of interrogation is to get information, to break the will of the person being questioned. Good.

 I do agree that they should have been handled better and faster in the tribunals. No one should linger for years without being charged and arraigned in the tribunals. In that, the human rights group have an argument.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Tibet and the Olympic
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2008, 09:02:37 AM »
  But this isn't a discussion on the US, but China and Tibet.

Offline Elvi

Re: Tibet and the Olympic
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2008, 09:17:37 AM »
Your last post reminded me so much of world war rhetoric Zakaharra, that I just had to post this link I found a month or so ago.

http://futureofthewhirled.com/cant-escape-the-truth-any-longer


Meanwhile.....back on topic.... 

<snip>
And no, I'm not some go china advocate, but even the Dali Lama isn't calling for an independent china, just for more autonomy.
<snip>

I have assumed that you mean an independant Tibett Apple?
Tibett has a history of being annexed to may of the surrounding countries, including being under British rule for a time.
However, they have never had their religious 'souls' torn away from them and they have never had their religious leader 'waving' at them from over the boarder for almost 60 years.  
They want (and should have), their freedom to practice, whatever religion, that they wish to practice and are quite rightly using the publicity of the Olympics to remind the world that they can't.
(That, of course, is simplifying the issues, there is, as with most things, far more, but if anyone really wants to read about that, then there are plenty of articles spread around the internet, which would be much more accurate.)

http://www.tibet.net/en/ohhdl/statements/10march/2008.html

http://www.freetibet.org/aboutus/freetibet.html

http://www.tibet.com/

http://www.savetibet.org/



Quote
Maybe instead of this we should be trying to stop the ethnic cleansing in Darfur or other parts of africa where decades of european colonialism have helped sow the seeds of the violent clashes that occur there to this day.


You say that as though these are seperate issues and that 'we' aren't 'doing something'.
Nothing is mutually exclusive.
You are right, Europe sewed the seeds and we are now reaping the 'benefits', I know that it is a very nasty and bitter harvest, one which most of Europe is aware of and actively attempt to do something about.


EDIT:
To add the links I forgot.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2008, 09:26:26 AM by Elvi »

Offline MagicalPen

Re: Tibet and the Olympic
« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2008, 09:21:36 AM »
Elvi - re that link about Hitler/Bush...WOW! Whoever wrote that sure is stretching just about everything there. *shakes head* Talk about ill informed and taking everything at face value. Whoever wrote that Blog should sing up for the Interwar Germany 1919 - 1939 class i took in college.

Offline Elvi

Re: Tibet and the Olympic
« Reply #30 on: March 19, 2008, 09:30:34 AM »
Your opinion, my opinion, their opinion.
'Your' history doesn't tally with 'mine' Silvestine, who is in the right?
(Again another subject for a topic that is not this one)

Offline MagicalPen

Re: Tibet and the Olympic
« Reply #31 on: March 19, 2008, 09:36:24 AM »
Well, hmm, some of the books I read on the subject were written by actual historians, based on actual facts. One was written by a high-ranking Nazi who held a high position during the late 20's and early 30's, not to mention numerous German articles from the period, other periodicals, and other very well researched books.

I was just saying that the author of that site doesn't seem to have even the most basic of knowledge of that time period and what he is talking about. Now, comparing Bush to a Monkey is an entirely different matter...

http://jcnot4me.com/images/Bush-monkey.gif

Offline Elvi

Re: Tibet and the Olympic
« Reply #32 on: March 19, 2008, 06:04:56 PM »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7304805.stm

Brown planning to meet Dalai Lama 
Gordon Brown has said he will meet Tibet's exiled spiritual leader the Dalai Lama when he visits the UK.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7300157.stm

In quotes: Reaction to Tibet protests 
Governments around the world have urged China to use restraint in dealing with Tibetan protesters, and called for dialogue between the two sides to ease tensions. 


Offline 420kman

Re: Tibet and the Olympic
« Reply #33 on: March 21, 2008, 03:20:16 PM »
I'm not happy at all with what's going on with Tibet and China right now. I consider boycott a viable answer. This isn't the first time China has blatantly abused the people of Tibet. They deserve independence now.

Offline Sugarman (hal)Topic starter

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Re: Tibet and the Olympic
« Reply #34 on: March 21, 2008, 03:58:56 PM »
Well think about boycotting the televised showing of Olympics... but tell the networks why. It's about all you and I can do.

Offline Fullmetal Ky

Re: Tibet and the Olympic
« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2008, 07:05:22 PM »
Out of interest (and slightly off topic!), does anyone have a clear cut reason why China want to keep Tibet? I haven't been able to find one since I started to (lightly) research the whole fiasco.

I found it strange though how the Dalai Lama himself said that Tibet could not exist without China and that what he wanted was not a free Tibet but more autonomy from Bejing. I also read that the reason Tibet have been in uproar has been because of inflation in the country (of the price of goods, Tibet hasn't been pumped up with a massive bike pump). China promised inflation would dissipate upon completion of the railway into China, but it hasn't.

Offline Elvi

Re: Tibet and the Olympic
« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2008, 07:13:20 PM »

Offline Fullmetal Ky

Re: Tibet and the Olympic
« Reply #37 on: March 30, 2008, 07:28:18 PM »
http://www.friends-of-tibet.org.nz/tibet.html

Try that Metal

Hmm, all I can glean from that is colonisation. Mind you, with China's populance being the mass it is, I suppose additional living space is high on their agenda. I thought there might be a better reason for them to go through all this headache and act like such swines for.

My thanks, Elvi.

Offline Elvi

Re: Tibet and the Olympic
« Reply #38 on: March 30, 2008, 07:40:20 PM »
Have a look on the map as to where Tibet is.
Strategicly, it is a very important area.
Britain thought so when we controlled India, the Chinese think so now.

Offline Fullmetal Ky

Re: Tibet and the Olympic
« Reply #39 on: March 30, 2008, 07:44:06 PM »
Have a look on the map as to where Tibet is.
Strategicly, it is a very important area.
Britain thought so when we controlled India, the Chinese think so now.

And I suppose with the construction of the enormous railroad, China also now have a means of transporting through the country. Hmm... food for thought.

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Re: Tibet and the Olympic
« Reply #40 on: March 31, 2008, 09:39:31 AM »
Tibet borders Kashmir, which is rich in natural resources that have yet to be exploited. Aside from the nationalistic and ethnic backgrounds of the people in Kashmir, that is one of the major reasons India and Pakistan have continued to fight over the area. China is also aware of the treasures of the region, and at some point, China will also assert their rights to try to gather some of the spoils from the region. Tibet is a vital link in the chain, as it gives them access to the area.

Offline Elvi

Re: Tibet and the Olympic
« Reply #41 on: April 06, 2008, 01:25:21 PM »
Well...it looks as though Britain has shown what it thinks....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7332942.stm

Offline Mia

Re: Tibet and the Olympic
« Reply #42 on: April 06, 2008, 01:37:16 PM »
Out of interest (and slightly off topic!), does anyone have a clear cut reason why China want to keep Tibet?

To my understanding it always has been part of China... there have never been a country of Tibet as no-one has ever recognized Tibet as an independent country and still doesn't.

Offline Humble Scribe

Re: Tibet and the Olympic
« Reply #43 on: April 06, 2008, 01:56:00 PM »
I still can't help thinking that the time to worry about China holding the Olympics would have been seven years ago when the Games were awarded to them, not three months before they are due to be staged. Tibet was occupied in 1950, after all...

You can't blame the Tibetans for using the Games as an excuse to draw attention, but come on, this has been scheduled for seven years. No-one seems to be proposing political or economic boycotts, and yet now we have to stage a sporting boycott? It's easy for politicians to call for sporting boycotts because they have to do absolutely nothing, they look like they're responding to public concerns, and they won't personally suffer at all, unlike the poor athletes.

Offline Humble Scribe

Re: Tibet and the Olympic
« Reply #44 on: April 06, 2008, 01:58:47 PM »
To my understanding it always has been part of China... there have never been a country of Tibet as no-one has ever recognized Tibet as an independent country and still doesn't.

Tibet was independent until it was conquered by the Mongols in the 13th century. It was unified with China by an act of force. If you think that that is ancient history, the Anglo-Irish problem dates back to about the same era...

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Re: Tibet and the Olympic
« Reply #45 on: April 06, 2008, 02:03:31 PM »
To my understanding it always has been part of China... there have never been a country of Tibet as no-one has ever recognized Tibet as an independent country and still doesn't.

Elvi posted this link as reference

http://www.friends-of-tibet.org.nz/tibet.html

let me ask you... the America Indian claimed the lands they held sacred to them as given by the great spirit... but it mattered not by the people across the seas. They just pushed them aside and even disregard their belief systems.  

I see it similar in Tibet... their way of life and beliefs are being pushed aside by the Chinese who see only strategic value of Tibet, disregard centuries of tradition and religious belief.


« Last Edit: April 06, 2008, 02:05:56 PM by Sugarman (hal) »

Offline Elvi

Re: Tibet and the Olympic
« Reply #46 on: April 06, 2008, 02:19:38 PM »
Do you really think that nobody and nothing has been said or done about Tibet until now Scribe?
Hell....I remember discussing it and demonstrating against it in the 70's early 80's....
The point is that Tibet and it's supporters have an oppertunity here when all of the world is watching. They weren't watching seven years ago, they will and are now.

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Re: Tibet and the Olympic
« Reply #47 on: April 06, 2008, 02:57:51 PM »
Do you really think that nobody and nothing has been said or done about Tibet until now Scribe?
Hell....I remember discussing it and demonstrating against it in the 70's early 80's....
The point is that Tibet and it's supporters have an oppertunity here when all of the world is watching. They weren't watching seven years ago, they will and are now.

exactly... and after the Olympic move on they will be forgotten again. It's their only window of opportunity to really state their case to the would.

Offline Humble Scribe

Re: Tibet and the Olympic
« Reply #48 on: April 07, 2008, 12:35:26 AM »
Do you really think that nobody and nothing has been said or done about Tibet until now Scribe?

Far from it. And for the record I have every sympathy with the people of Tibet, Kurdistan, Burma, Zimbabwe and a dozen other places...
Just that all of a sudden it's; "Hey, the Olympics are in China! Damn, what kind of idiots let that happen? Hm, oh yeah, we did..."

Offline Elvi

Re: Tibet and the Olympic
« Reply #49 on: April 07, 2008, 06:40:31 AM »
As far as I am aware, the IOC (International Olympic Committee), choose where the Olympics are held, not polititions.
And yes.....*sighs*.....I am being pedantic and no....I am not that nieve to think that politics is not involved.

So lets get back to the reason for the thread OK?