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Author Topic: New Prostitution Rulings in Ontario, Canada  (Read 2609 times)

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Offline RhapsodyTopic starter

New Prostitution Rulings in Ontario, Canada
« on: March 29, 2012, 07:33:14 AM »
I was pretty happy to see this. Prostitutes can now legally employ drivers, security staff or bodyguards (which was prohibited under a law that stated no one could live off the proceeds of prostitution) and legally work in brothels, which opens up the ability to work from home, or a common home. Prostitution, which most people (including myself until recently) do not know, has never been illegal in Canada. But the laws were made to curtail and restrain the ability to be a prostitute. Solicitation being the big one, and bawdy house laws.

But now brothels are legal (at least until the Supreme Court weighs in), and so are bodyguards and drivers. Prior to this, a single sex worker running her business out of her own home was guilty of running an illegal brothel. Now they can live off the money brought in by prostitution, and they can move to safer, indoor locations.

Soliciting sex acts in public remains illegal.

http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario/article/1151925--prostitution-law-ontario-s-top-court-allows-brothels-but-soliciting-ruled-illegal

Offline RubySlippers

Re: New Prostitution Rulings in Ontario, Canada
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2012, 08:28:50 AM »
Well that is the point the right of the woman (or man) to work safely and at the same time follow the intent of the laws to keep prostitution off the streets which is fine. To bad people in the US don't get that you can have both.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: New Prostitution Rulings in Ontario, Canada
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2012, 09:09:10 AM »
Well that is the point the right of the woman (or man) to work safely and at the same time follow the intent of the laws to keep prostitution off the streets which is fine. To bad people in the US don't get that you can have both.

[sarcasm]
Oh no, we have to regulate good christian values, puritan work ethic and all the rest. After all the extreme christian right knows what is best for everyone.

[/sarcasm]

Never happen, limited areas out west aside. They are too rigid to compromise or look past their own ways. Any evidence to the contrary aside, pro or con.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: New Prostitution Rulings in Ontario, Canada
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2012, 01:28:41 PM »
Finally.  Maybe that will get some of the girls off my street.  It's not a nice place here...

Offline Thraben

Re: New Prostitution Rulings in Ontario, Canada
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2012, 02:05:20 PM »
Yeah I was very pleased when I heard this, the best way to fix the issues with prostitution (drug use, STI's, human trafficking, etc) is by regulating the industry and creating a legitimate market with fair laws that protect the workers. I'm always surprised that governments still don't seem to realize that making something illegal will never stop people from wanting it and that where there's a demand, someone will supply.

Offline vtboy

Re: New Prostitution Rulings in Ontario, Canada
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2012, 02:10:48 PM »
Got to admire the Canadians for getting the balance right on what things government should regulate (e.g., health care), and what things it shouldn't (e.g., private morality/prostitution). 

Offline Lilias

Re: New Prostitution Rulings in Ontario, Canada
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2012, 02:25:38 PM »
Got to admire the Canadians for getting the balance right on what things government should regulate (e.g., health care), and what things it shouldn't (e.g., private morality/prostitution).

Prostitution has much more to do with public health than private morality. And damn right it had better be regulated. That's part of legalisation. Make it legal and give it standards. Taxing, receipts, mandatory condom use, monthly STI testing. Like in Nevada ranches. So that the sex workers don't risk their lives any more than any other professionals, and their clients don't ruin theirs.

Offline vtboy

Re: New Prostitution Rulings in Ontario, Canada
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2012, 03:20:34 PM »
Prostitution has much more to do with public health than private morality. And damn right it had better be regulated. That's part of legalisation. Make it legal and give it standards. Taxing, receipts, mandatory condom use, monthly STI testing. Like in Nevada ranches. So that the sex workers don't risk their lives any more than any other professionals, and their clients don't ruin theirs.

In this country, I think prostitution's almost universal proscription has much more to do with concerns over private morality than over public health. In any event, I included the "/private morality" qualifier in my comment because I believe it is appropriate to impose "workplace" regulations, but not to prohibit the enterprise. 

Offline Humbugearthquake

Re: New Prostitution Rulings in Ontario, Canada
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2012, 04:01:23 PM »
Hey! Let me just chip in with my own views in the matter ;D
I believe that prostitution, as an industry, should be frowned open by us as a society.
I don't say this because im christian, im very atheistic, nor do I moralize, if I were the moralizing type, I wouldn't be here :P
Although, I see prostitution as not an act of sexual freedom but instead as the height of objectification.
Now we can all agree that prostitution is dominated by females. Sure there are male prostitutes but they are a staggering minority.
The reason we actually see a majority of women in this "business"  is because we already have a disgraceful objectification of women in our society today.
Thus, prostitution is not an industry you have to balance, it's an disgrace to human rights and human values and should be illeagalized ASAP.

Offline Iniquitous

Re: New Prostitution Rulings in Ontario, Canada
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2012, 04:18:15 PM »
Hey! Let me just chip in with my own views in the matter ;D
I believe that prostitution, as an industry, should be frowned open by us as a society.
I don't say this because im christian, im very atheistic, nor do I moralize, if I were the moralizing type, I wouldn't be here :P
Although, I see prostitution as not an act of sexual freedom but instead as the height of objectification.
Now we can all agree that prostitution is dominated by females. Sure there are male prostitutes but they are a staggering minority.
The reason we actually see a majority of women in this "business"  is because we already have a disgraceful objectification of women in our society today.
Thus, prostitution is not an industry you have to balance, it's an disgrace to human rights and human values and should be illeagalized ASAP.

And yet making it illegal has worked so well right? Men and women working as prostitutes are in constant danger, they do not get tested for diseases, they end up with pimps that get them hooked on drugs and take their earnings, etc etc. And meanwhile, cops are constantly having to do sting operations to try to stop the world's oldest profession.

If they haven't stopped it yet they are never going to be able to stop it. Oh, and btw - humans are not the only species to practice prostitution. Scientists have known for awhile that male monkeys will give food to a female monkey in exchange for sex. Are they objectifying the female monkey?

Offline Humbugearthquake

Re: New Prostitution Rulings in Ontario, Canada
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2012, 04:30:35 PM »
And yet making it illegal has worked so well right? Men and women working as prostitutes are in constant danger, they do not get tested for diseases, they end up with pimps that get them hooked on drugs and take their earnings, etc etc. And meanwhile, cops are constantly having to do sting operations to try to stop the world's oldest profession.

If they haven't stopped it yet they are never going to be able to stop it. Oh, and btw - humans are not the only species to practice prostitution. Scientists have known for awhile that male monkeys will give food to a female monkey in exchange for sex. Are they objectifying the female monkey?
It's not the worlds oldest profession but instead the worlds oldest oppression...

Offline Iniquitous

Re: New Prostitution Rulings in Ontario, Canada
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2012, 04:37:10 PM »
It's not the worlds oldest profession but instead the worlds oldest oppression...

I believe at this point, that is your opinion speaking.

Fact is, it is the world's oldest profession and all attempts to make it illegal have failed. If you cannot beat something, you work with it. Make it legal, tax it, make it safe and turn attention towards the other things that need attention.

And again, humans are not the only species to practice giving something for sex. (If you really wanted to get technical - everyone who works for someone else is prostituting. IE - taking money for skills)

Oh, and if you dislike prostitution then what is your view on pornography?

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: New Prostitution Rulings in Ontario, Canada
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2012, 05:05:25 PM »
Hey! Let me just chip in with my own views in the matter ;D
I believe that prostitution, as an industry, should be frowned open by us as a society.
I don't say this because im christian, im very atheistic, nor do I moralize, if I were the moralizing type, I wouldn't be here :P
Although, I see prostitution as not an act of sexual freedom but instead as the height of objectification.
Now we can all agree that prostitution is dominated by females. Sure there are male prostitutes but they are a staggering minority.
The reason we actually see a majority of women in this "business"  is because we already have a disgraceful objectification of women in our society today.
Thus, prostitution is not an industry you have to balance, it's an disgrace to human rights and human values and should be illeagalized ASAP.

You know.. if it was properly regulated it would allow for better treatment of health issues, we'd not have as much violence against them. Pimps aren't exactly nice people. A lot of prostitutes wind up hooked on drugs and abuse. Not to mention it would be a LOT easier to prevent things like human trafficking. Prostitution is one of the TOP clients of it in the US.

I notice that when folks go on about illegal immigration that the victimization points get downplayed. At least recently and by the tea party.

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Re: New Prostitution Rulings in Ontario, Canada
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2012, 06:48:56 PM »
Hey! Let me just chip in with my own views in the matter ;D
I believe that prostitution, as an industry, should be frowned open by us as a society.
I don't say this because im christian, im very atheistic, nor do I moralize, if I were the moralizing type, I wouldn't be here :P
Although, I see prostitution as not an act of sexual freedom but instead as the height of objectification.
Now we can all agree that prostitution is dominated by females. Sure there are male prostitutes but they are a staggering minority.
The reason we actually see a majority of women in this "business"  is because we already have a disgraceful objectification of women in our society today.
Thus, prostitution is not an industry you have to balance, it's an disgrace to human rights and human values and should be illeagalized ASAP.

You have to choose the "lesser" of two evils here.
One sees the women beaten, kept in sheds, used, without being protected, neither in the sex, nor from bodily harm, people trafficking, and so on, all the "good" stuff. The other "evil" sees em having health care, forced to use condoms and other protection, and so on. You may not "like" it, but it is undeniable that the women would be better off after getting prostitution legalized. By far.

Offline RhapsodyTopic starter

Re: New Prostitution Rulings in Ontario, Canada
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2012, 08:04:13 PM »
I'll just reiterate that Canada never illegalized prostitution itself. In fact, buying and selling sex was, and is, perfectly legal. I didn't know this until I did a little more research. What was prohibited was pimping, public solicitation, and running or working in a whorehouse (the "bawdy house" laws), as well as other activities that come with the territory of prostitution. This made it hard to practice prostitution without breaking laws designed to inhibit sex workers from plying their trade.

Trading sex for money is legal, everything else isn't.

Offline Thraben

Re: New Prostitution Rulings in Ontario, Canada
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2012, 02:20:30 AM »
Hey! Let me just chip in with my own views in the matter ;D
I believe that prostitution, as an industry, should be frowned open by us as a society.
I don't say this because im christian, im very atheistic, nor do I moralize, if I were the moralizing type, I wouldn't be here :P
Although, I see prostitution as not an act of sexual freedom but instead as the height of objectification.
Now we can all agree that prostitution is dominated by females. Sure there are male prostitutes but they are a staggering minority.
The reason we actually see a majority of women in this "business"  is because we already have a disgraceful objectification of women in our society today.
Thus, prostitution is not an industry you have to balance, it's an disgrace to human rights and human values and should be illeagalized ASAP.

Is it not somewhat condescending to say to a woman that she's unable to make a sound decision on her employment because she ought to find the prospect of being a prostitute to be degrading? Is it not her body and thus her choice? Nobody is saying women should be forced to do something they don't want to and nobody is saying that illegal street pimps are morally acceptable but if prostitution were to become as normal and accepted of a service as plumbing, for instance, than who are we to tell someone not seek it as their career? Or hell, as their pass-time even.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: New Prostitution Rulings in Ontario, Canada
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2012, 03:38:27 AM »
Fact is, it is the world's oldest profession and all attempts to make it illegal have failed.
Ah, actually it's not.  It's the second oldest.  The oldest is shamanism.  Trading for spiritual favours has been around longer than sexual ones.

We are a very superstitious race of upright simians.

Offline Iniquitous

Re: New Prostitution Rulings in Ontario, Canada
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2012, 07:32:19 AM »
I have to beg to differ on this one Chris.

Shamanism is not a 'profession' that someone could just decide to be. It was a 'profession' that the current Shaman of the tribe was chosen for. Meaning the old Shaman would pick the next person to be Shaman based upon who the spirits told them was the right one and then trained that person in everything (s)he needed to know. (Lumping 'medicine man' in with Shamanism since in some tribes they were one and the same).

Seeing as how it was not a 'job' a person could just pick and do, I hesitate to call it a true profession and more of a 'calling'. Which still puts prostitution as the world's oldest profession.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: New Prostitution Rulings in Ontario, Canada
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2012, 07:44:53 AM »
The original shaman and priests were often self selected, by either having 'visions' or conning their targets.  For every true prophet, there are hundreds if not thousands of fakes all claiming to be religiously inspired.  After all, what do you think TV evangilists were?

I still maintain the first true profession was the Shaman.  Feel free to disagree.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: New Prostitution Rulings in Ontario, Canada
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2012, 09:48:07 AM »
Only a slight reversal of things. Normally, prostitutes were the oldest profession and pimps were the second-oldest. If shamanism came first, all that means is now they came about and needed something to pimp out, so they settled for spirits until they could get hookers. So shamans=spirit pimps=the oldest profession.

Offline Isobel

Re: New Prostitution Rulings in Ontario, Canada
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2012, 03:58:29 PM »
It seems a great idea to me.  In the UK part of the problem is that there's no really big dividing line between consensual prostitution (yes I know hardly any of the women would choose it probably if they had a good alternative, but still) and trafficked women who are basically raped all day. 

Because it's ALL illegal there's no obvious dividing line and it's too easy for the police, who are quite sexist, to ignore the whole lot.

Offline sexhaver

Re: New Prostitution Rulings in Ontario, Canada
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2012, 06:23:16 PM »
As far as I'm concerned, no vice should be illegal. If the only victim of an activity is yourself, and you choose to involve yourself in it, and you're old enough to understand the consequences, what right does anyone have to stop you? Isn't individual freedom regarding one's body one of the basic principles of democracy, and the oppression of those freedoms one of the greatest grievances of american conservatives (the fight against Nanny Statism)? Prostitution, drugs, gambling, it's all in the same boat.

Where the problem comes, is when people start using the vice to exploit others - pimps, drug pushers, and loan sharks are the criminals whom vice laws should be meant to stop. The original intent of the Ontario laws mentioned by the OP, that were recently overturned, was to criminalize pimps by making it illegal to "live off the proceeds of prostitution", and to run a bawdy house. Unfortunately, that wording was vague enough that it could be used to prosecute the families of prostitutes, and also to people they hire, such as drivers and bodyguards, mentioned by the OP. So definitely the laws were in need of revision, though I'm not sure if there was anything put in to still make pimping illegal. I would prefer to see it simply covered under existing extortion laws. Though, in that case it would now require testimony from the victims in order to convict a pimp, I imagine. One big advantage of decriminalization is that now victims of exploitation can come forward to the police without fear of being charged with any crimes in the process.

It doesn't quite solve human trafficking, though, since victims of that crime still fear deportation if they come forward.

When considering the matter of vices, I usually look to the Netherlands as the example to follow. Nobody can claim that decriminalizing something will wreck society in their own countries, when other countries have successfully done it.

Someone mentioned the activity among animals as well, but I would be careful about making such arguments. What works for animals does not necessarily work for humans.

Quote
The reason we actually see a majority of women in this "business"  is because we already have a disgraceful objectification of women in our society today.
Not so. The reason is the monetary value of sex to the average man is higher than it is to the average woman. Before condoms were invented, women had far more to lose from NSA sex than men did - 9 months under a severe physical handicap, and another mouth to feed when it's over. That's why they decided to attach the strings. The costs of casual sex may now be equalized with the invention of birth control, but the instincts are still embedded into everyone's brains that a man might compensate a woman for sex she wouldn't otherwise want. Objectification is tied to that, but not the cause of it. Objectification is more of the natural response of a man who aims to seduce his partners, when he sees that those partners can simply be bought by anyone with money or flashy status symbols. It's sort of a sour grapes mentality - why invest the emotion needed for a relationship with someone when at any moment she could go off with someone else who pays better?

Offline Serephino

Re: New Prostitution Rulings in Ontario, Canada
« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2012, 08:48:51 PM »
That's something I don't get.  People argue that legalizing prostitution would increase criminal activity and human trafficking.  But, if you look at it logically, it should decrease it.  Women who are being victimized could go to the authorities for help without the fear of being tossed in jail for prostitution themselves.  If there were regulations the women would be safer.  There would probably still be some illegal activity, though not as much.     

Offline Zakharra

Re: New Prostitution Rulings in Ontario, Canada
« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2012, 09:53:25 PM »
The original shaman and priests were often self selected, by either having 'visions' or conning their targets.  For every true prophet, there are hundreds if not thousands of fakes all claiming to be religiously inspired.  After all, what do you think TV evangilists were?

I still maintain the first true profession was the Shaman.  Feel free to disagree.

 Hunters/gathers (have to eat somehow. No food, you die), parents(someone has to raise the kids), then prostitution. Shamanism falls behind them on the list.

Offline sexhaver

Re: New Prostitution Rulings in Ontario, Canada
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2012, 12:21:15 AM »
If you define the term 'profession' more narrowly as a skill performed in exchange for someone else's food or currency, rather than a skill that directly acquires it (as in hunting and gathering), then it fits. First we learned how to hunt, then some women saw value in hanging around the more successful hunters. The question is, did they marry them, or did they treat it like a business, hopping from client to client? The first profession may have instead been crafting art objects and selling them to guys who are trying to impress women but lack the knowledge and free time to craft their own stuff. Or crafting weapons...

I'd say parenting isn't a profession, unless you're raising someone else's kids.... intentionally. Certainly cuckolding would predate prostitution, but you don't get paid for that.

Unfortunately, while we can dig up art objects and spiritual affects, the bones of ancient people don't tell us whether any of them were working girls or not. Moral of the story: don't try to date a whore?