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Author Topic: Unemployed need not apply?  (Read 2694 times)

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Offline OniyaTopic starter

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Unemployed need not apply?
« on: July 26, 2011, 12:49:49 PM »
With Mr. Oniya being on unemployment for quite a while, despite sending out resume after resume, and filling out online form after online form, it seems that my deepest suspicions have been proven right.  The New York Times has discovered hundreds of employment advertisements stating that people who are currently unemployed basically shouldn't bother.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/job-listings-unemployed-not-apply-133143362.html

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Unemployed need not apply?
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2011, 01:07:19 PM »
This is not news to many people, I work as a Busker now because even if I earn a degree it won't matter for a few years why waste my money and time. In fact its even better I can earn all cash $10-25 an hour when I work if a good spot, all tax free since its cash if I wanted to not report it as income (I do) and can work my own hours and days. And my only expenses are a few cheap instruments my main ones kazoos in fact, some costume and a annual county solicitation license and mymonthly  bus pass. Overall if I make money its good and I work mostly weekends and evenings weather allowing for it. And my lifestyle is low cost anyway so don't need a great deal of money I get get by on $6000 a year and make usually 25-30% over that.

Why work minimum wage 120 hours a month when I can get the same money for 40 hours a month of work?

I have a feeling most people trying for jobs like these people are the ones with issues and its sad this is happening but its not in and of itself illegal. And even if a person is a protected group why if its a blanket policy would it be discriminatory. Makingit illegal is not going to help either they still can toss out resumes and applications that don't fit their criteria.

I'm doing quite well, and most people give a visually impaired Busker extra money and being disabled work was always harder to get. So I figured out I better get skills to make my own money awhile ago as a teen. So learned some simple folk instruments, studied clowning and miming and other skills to be marketable as a Busker. People now have to figure out ways to earn money not counting on employment for someone its prudent IMHO to have alternate avenues of income even if modest in nature.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Unemployed need not apply?
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2011, 01:08:02 PM »
Mmm, that's how it works. And it's not a US-only thing either. Back in the nineties, when unemployment around here in Sweden (and elsewhere in Europe) was massive, a researcher looked into how jobseekers and hiring companies/agencies would look at training and short-term programs provided by the State Employment Board and its local outlets. It turned out that jobseekers writing resumés were actively trying to hide if they had spent some time on such a training post, course or subsidized job, at least in the written format. If they got to an interview they could afford to say "yeah, it was a subsidized filler job/course to keep me on the dole" or to give them more job skills of the kind you might not get at college or school, but not in writing.

Being perceived as entering from joblessness was tough, but being seen as someone who had been "in the can" with the (un)employment agencies guys was even worse, it basically stamped you as a low-quality person. Having had dealings with said agency since, I've found myself doing much the same thing.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 01:12:28 PM by gaggedLouise »

Offline Syauglan

Re: Unemployed need not apply?
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2011, 02:17:18 PM »
This might not be surprising to many of you but its still heart breaking to read for some. It is hard enough for unemployed people as it is. Learning that they are discriminated against for being out of work will go far in destroying motivation and self confidence on a personal level. On a wider level this kind of discimination reduces social mobility and increases rich / poor divisions, hurting society as a whole.

Offline NotoriusBEN

Re: Unemployed need not apply?
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2011, 04:04:04 PM »
this is insanity. shouldnt the first applicants your looking for be those that are unemployed? Im not talking about the slackers and freeders, Im talking about the everyman that was fired due to cutbacks, first, or the kid out of highschool or college. Im well aware that certain specialized fields require you to be trained, but honestly, as long as the person is willing to work, willing to learn, and capable of both, they should have a shot at being hired (I see this more in older generations, it sickens me that kids nowadays dont know the meaning of work). I'd ask how for how many applications and resume's they posted between their last employment and today too. It'd let me know how serious their searching was for a job.

This climate of joblessness has a different set of parameters than a few years ago. Employers need to adapt to them and they should be named if they discriminate like this. It is discrimination by the way, and wrong even if it is not covered in the Employee Protection Act.

There are times when my boss and I butt heads, but for the most part we respect each other and I am a firm follower of him because he was willing to teach me the job that I am in.

Oniya, it may suck, but you might want to ask Mr. Oniya to try for Walmart, fast food or anything if he hasnt already. Anything to get back in the system as a working employee. I dont know if its prudent, but shoot, even asking to sign a 1-year contract with the company that he'll stay as an employee and wont quit of his own accord. I dont think its legal, but maybe it will let the employer know that he is serious about any job.

eff congress and eff the banks for crashing this stuff...

Offline OniyaTopic starter

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Re: Unemployed need not apply?
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2011, 04:20:27 PM »
Oh, he tried Walmart, McDonalds, Hardees, Burger King - any place with a 'Now Hiring' sign.  Retail is actually his first choice in employment because he's good at making the sale (starting with flea-markets when he was eight).  He even went so far as to shave his beard (he's one of those men who looks much better with face-fuzz than without.  I'd post pics if it weren't against E-rules.) so that the food-service places didn't have that excuse to turn him away.  Simply saying that he'd shave if he was hired led him to be passed over more than a few times.  He's now employed as an 'Independent Contractor' with a RenFaire booth because the booth owner finally decided that it made more sense to do that than to continue on a handshake.  It's not much, but it marks him as 'employed'.

Offline NotoriusBEN

Re: Unemployed need not apply?
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2011, 05:30:04 PM »
renfaire? that renaissance thing in cali? Cool beans if he's able to keep the noodle strainer :P

Offline OniyaTopic starter

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Re: Unemployed need not apply?
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2011, 05:43:19 PM »
Actually, there are Renaissance Faires all over the country, and many merchants travel a circuit of several over the course of a season.  At one point, his boss was working one Faire, and Mr. Oniya was working the same booth at a different one.  Beards are considered 'period'.  ;)

Still, the season does end eventually, so we'll be going through this again by Christmas.  If he's lucky, the kiosk he worked last year will be willing to hire him when he gets home from Texas, but that's a seasonal job from Black Friday to Christmas Eve at best.

Offline Linna

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Re: Unemployed need not apply?
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2011, 12:38:10 AM »
Tis sad :(

I guess they feel like it's the unemployed man's fault for being that way.  It's not.  But it's just a way for them to discriminate because they know certain groups will be affected more by the high unemployment than others.

Offline OniyaTopic starter

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Re: Unemployed need not apply?
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2011, 01:09:48 AM »
That's one of the things that was apparently under investigation, since those certain groups fall under anti-discrimination laws.

Offline Jude

Re: Unemployed need not apply?
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2011, 02:20:21 AM »
I have been unable to find any statistics on the prevalence of this hiring practice -- probably because they don't exist.

I listened to an interview the other day on the subject on NPR between the head of a "working poor and unemployed" rights group and a lawyer who works for employers in the case of lawsuits about hiring practices.  They both had interesting stuff to say, but it was all subjective and speculative.  The bottom line is, we do not know whether or not the unemployed are being discriminated against in any significant capacity.

Best numbers I could find were mentioned in said interview, where 150 out of 10,000 job postings contained language that said or implied "do not bother if you're unemployed."

I personally have only seen 1 such posting in my entire job search, and it was for a government position that was only looking for currently employed public employees.

Offline OniyaTopic starter

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Re: Unemployed need not apply?
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2011, 02:29:40 AM »
If it's not happening in 'any significant capacity', then why would the National Employment Law Project issue this report?  Why would New Jersey find it necessary to pass a law preventing the practice?  New York and Michigan have introduced bills to their state legislature, and it has been introduced in the House of Representatives as well.

Offline Jude

Re: Unemployed need not apply?
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2011, 06:30:06 AM »
The NELP report is the very basis of the NPR discussion I heard, but lets examine the report a bit and see what actual evidence is contained therein.  Ignoring anecdotes which do not include descriptive statistics, the only numbers and research in the entire article that pertains to the question of prevalence is this:
Quote
NELP conducted its review over the four-week period that commenced on March 9, 2011 and ended on April 5, 2011.  A NELP researcher reviewed job postings during that period that appeared on four of the nation’s most prominent online job listing websites: CareerBuilder.com, Indeed.com, Monster.com, and Craigslist.com.  The online research sought information on both employers and staffing firms that were specifically identified by name (often, job listings are posted anonymously), while also seeking a diverse sample from across the United States.  NELP’s snapshot of jobs postings identified more than 150 ads that included exclusions based on current employment status, including 125 ads that identified specific companies by name
150 out of all of Careerbuilder?  I find it interesting that they don't mention how many ads they looked at.  Careerbuilder is a very big site, there are 125 pages of ads in the St Louis area alone (I know because I look at them every day -- and still I've never seen what they're saying is happening in all of that time).  A pure count of "hits" without any measure of how many "misses" does not provide evidence.  Without context, presenting that as information is at best misguided and at worst manipulative.

Before that section they opine and give anecdotes, after that they give opinion polling information that shows that Americans are heavily opposed to hiring discrimination against the unemployed.  None of that is relevant information either.  The report is really just preliminary information that shows there could be a problem, which I agree with, unfortunately the strength of their claims is vastly overstated and alarmist.

As far as the "why have the laws been passed if there's not a problem" question goes... Well, I don't know there's not a problem, but lets assume for the sake of argument that there is not one.  Why was DOMA passed?  Gay marriage isn't a real problem.  Why did we have don't ask don't tell?

Just because something is a law, a rule, or anything, doesn't mean it's solving a real problem.  We would certainly live in a more perfect world if that were so.

Offline Malefique

Re: Unemployed need not apply?
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2011, 07:57:40 PM »
It's a lousy thing to do, but at least these employers are being more honest.  In the UK they can't do that, it is against anti-discriminatory laws, but it doesn't stop employers binning applications from anyone who isn't currently employed.  And they do.  The assumption being that if you are not employed its because you are unemployable for some reason.   Which is totally shitty and indicates a need for a top-down change of attitude. 

Offline Maeven

Re: Unemployed need not apply?
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2011, 11:46:36 PM »
This... I mean, it just happens. I've known since I started working that gaps in employment are undesirable.  It decreases your marketability.  This is particularly relevant to a woman who has the desire to stay home with children. But that desire is tempered by the knowledge that being out of work for any length of time is going to make you a less desirable applicant.

High unemployment is just exacerbating the effects of something that's been a longstanding practice. 

Offline OldSchoolGamer

Re: Unemployed need not apply?
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2011, 01:06:41 PM »
The trick is to label yourself as self-employed.  I did.   ;D

Offline OniyaTopic starter

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Re: Unemployed need not apply?
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2011, 01:13:45 PM »
Yeah, we're sort of using that tack.  'Independent contractor' sounds better than 'selling pens at the Fair'.

Offline Mithlomwen

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Re: Unemployed need not apply?
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2011, 01:48:43 PM »
This... I mean, it just happens. I've known since I started working that gaps in employment are undesirable.  It decreases your marketability.  This is particularly relevant to a woman who has the desire to stay home with children. But that desire is tempered by the knowledge that being out of work for any length of time is going to make you a less desirable applicant.

High unemployment is just exacerbating the effects of something that's been a longstanding practice.

I often worry about this myself.  By the time my youngest starts school, I will have been a stay home mom and out of the workforce for going on 8-9 years give or take.  I have a strong suspicion that it won't be easy for me to find a job at all. 

Offline OniyaTopic starter

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Re: Unemployed need not apply?
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2011, 02:01:09 PM »
The work I'm doing is rather specialized.  There is literally nothing similar within driving distance here.  If I were to try to go back into retail, it's been over 10 years since I've been on the other side of a cash register.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Unemployed need not apply?
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2011, 02:29:02 PM »
My favorite of late is the way Boeing is doing the new P-8A tech rep jobs. One requires '6 years avionics experience, preferably military; plus 3 years of 737 experience'. If you don't have both.. you can't even apply. Whereas I have FIFTEEN years experience in the community that the P-8A is working in and have done THOUSANDS of work hours in every task they list on the precis. But I can't apply at all because I'm 'NOT QUALIFIED' because I've not got the required 737 experience.

The funny part.. I emailed them.. they blamed the DoD/Navy for that requirment.. and I KNOW the guys who came up with the requirements. I've worked on their planes for them for YEARS.

Offline ColdBloodedJellyDoughnut

Re: Unemployed need not apply?
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2011, 11:26:48 AM »
I'm 21, I've been unemployed for 9 months now, I have a degree in English Lit, and all my references are in New Zealand. I bet most people wouldn't even give me a second look, but what can I do? My dad keeps telling me that the unemployment rate in the UK is going down. That may be, but youth unemployment (16-25) is rising.

Here, they get around telling unemployed people to out and out not apply, by saying 'experience required'. Please, someone tell me how to get experience when no one will employ me! It's maddening! I want to work! I want to do something, and yet people who complain about their jobs all the time are getting employed because they 'have experience'.

Offline OniyaTopic starter

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Re: Unemployed need not apply?
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2011, 11:57:09 AM »
One way to get experience (other than looking for things marked 'entry level') is volunteering.  True, you don't get a paycheck for that, but it 'counts' when you start giving people a resume.

Offline Phoenixrisen

Re: Unemployed need not apply?
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2011, 02:01:09 AM »
I often worry about this myself.  By the time my youngest starts school, I will have been a stay home mom and out of the workforce for going on 8-9 years give or take.  I have a strong suspicion that it won't be easy for me to find a job at all. 

Spin it, that's what I did. Look objectively at all the tasks that are part of that job, and it is one even if you never get a day off and your not paid, and spin it on your resume. True, job jobs are better, but it explains the gap, and shows that you've been doing something. People are a lot more accepting these days of taking mothers who have taken the time to raise their children back into the working world. At least that's what the vocational counselors tell me.

Offline didoanna

Re: Unemployed need not apply?
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2011, 05:06:24 PM »
It's a lousy thing to do, but at least these employers are being more honest.  In the UK they can't do that, it is against anti-discriminatory laws, but it doesn't stop employers binning applications from anyone who isn't currently employed.  And they do.  The assumption being that if you are not employed its because you are unemployable for some reason.   Which is totally shitty and indicates a need for a top-down change of attitude.

Totally agree...a friend of mine has lost his job twice recently and he's a skilled shop / office fitter.  The firm he worked for went bust and then the next firm lost a contract and he was one of the first out the door as he had not been with the firm long.

He really struggled to get another job as an 'unemployed man' and he sent out lots of CV's to lots and lots of different firms.  In the end he got another job but it took him a while.

Offline Bayushi

Re: Unemployed need not apply?
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2011, 07:30:17 AM »
I often worry about this myself.  By the time my youngest starts school, I will have been a stay home mom and out of the workforce for going on 8-9 years give or take.  I have a strong suspicion that it won't be easy for me to find a job at all.
I know how you feel, Mith.

I just started my tenth year of unemployment, before which I was self-employed for four years. I haven't been on a payroll since the mid-late nineties, and couple that with the nature of my disability... and I don't think that even a degree in a technical field is going to help much.

Granted, I get SSI checks every month, but we see how the government is with money, and we already know the dire straits that Social Security is in. I'm trying to future proof myself, but if this hiring practice becomes common, I'll be screwed one way or another.