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Author Topic: So, there's a certain book on Amazon.  (Read 6456 times)

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Offline WolfyTopic starter

So, there's a certain book on Amazon.
« on: April 09, 2011, 05:37:54 AM »
I'm sure you've heard of it by now, so I won't bother posting a link.

A summary of it, though, is that it is a how-to guide on how to commit pedophilia/be a pedophile.

The Author has been arrested and given 2 months probation, but that's not what I want to talk about.

Amazon refuses to take the book down because it doesn't believe in censorship of any materials, even if they are..well, this.

So...What do you think, E? Should the book be taken down? Or is it the Author's right to sell it like anything else?...I dunno if Freedom of Speech covers this at all. O-o
« Last Edit: April 09, 2011, 05:45:01 AM by Wolfy »

Offline Brandon

Re: So, there's a certain book on Amazon.
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2011, 07:09:38 AM »
Its a slippery slope, as we've seen in recent years the first ammendment gets used a lot to defend this kind of thing and people are right to use it. The first ammendment protects people from goverment punishment for their speech but it does not protect anyone from speech that they dont want to hear. Amazon is also using their right to free speech as a business, claiming that they dont believe in censorship what so ever which is a valid outlook IMO.

I havnt given the book a single look so I am not sure what is or is not in it, I can only go by what Ive heard. What I've heard is its a guide on how to avoid legal pitfalls in both court and in the real world to avoid arrest and conviction in court. In truth, I have no problem with a guide that will help a person handle their case in court. There are many videos, books, and internet sites that do the same thing though its the type of crime were looking at thats causing the uproar, as it should. As I understand it, the book does not outright encourage the reader to commit any crimes. If Im mistaken in any of that let me know, like I said I can only go by what Ive heard

Anyway, if anything can be gained from the situation I think that law enforcment can use the book as a tool to refine their ability to catch criminals and more importantly convict them

Offline Vekseid

Re: So, there's a certain book on Amazon.
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2011, 07:19:49 AM »
There's a thread in Bad and Ugly about this and IIRC Amazon did pull the book, which is their right to do as a private entity.

The guy was arrested by Polk County, Florida, a group of arch-conservatives who'd throw everyone on this site in jail if they could get away with it. His arrest and plea bargain don't set constitutional precedent.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: So, there's a certain book on Amazon.
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2011, 07:51:58 AM »
Did it have pictures ,real one, of children and adults together sexually or not?

If its just a guide and all then why not ban any book you find offensive. If this went to the Supreme Court they would likely lose the case most likely, he should have gotten ACLU help and appealed regardless of the low sentence.

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Re: So, there's a certain book on Amazon.
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2011, 07:54:02 AM »
I'm curious, is this

Quote
The arrest had been orchestrated by outspoken Polk County Sheriff Grady Judd, who had an undercover detective request a copy of the book through the mail. “Make sure he autographs it,” Judd said.

When the book arrived, two detectives flew to Colorado and supervised local authorities as they took Greaves into custody.

entrapment?

Offline Vekseid

Re: So, there's a certain book on Amazon.
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2011, 08:13:20 AM »
No, since he was already actively selling the book. The signature was just for added proof.

It would be entrapment if they convinced him to write the book and then sell it to him.

I.e. entrapment is where you actually entice someone to commit a crime that they were not already looking to commit, and then arrest them for what you enticed them to do.

It's just an assault on free speech, which Polk County is known for. They've shut down several websites for what they consider to be 'obscene', and have lost several other cases.

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Re: So, there's a certain book on Amazon.
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2011, 08:34:26 AM »
Ah, ok.

Offline Oniya

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Re: So, there's a certain book on Amazon.
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2011, 10:23:26 AM »
No, since he was already actively selling the book. The signature was just for added proof.

It would be entrapment if they convinced him to write the book and then sell it to him.

I.e. entrapment is where you actually entice someone to commit a crime that they were not already looking to commit, and then arrest them for what you enticed them to do.

It's just an assault on free speech, which Polk County is known for. They've shut down several websites for what they consider to be 'obscene', and have lost several other cases.

Wouldn't the crime be actually demonstrating the acts in the book, rather than simply writing it?

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Re: So, there's a certain book on Amazon.
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2011, 10:43:58 AM »
Apparently he was done on some kind of obscenity charge, "distributing obscene material depicting minors engaged in conduct harmful to minors."

Offline Lyell

Re: So, there's a certain book on Amazon.
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2011, 09:25:33 PM »
I'm kinda torn on this.

On one hand the guy has no felonious history and Florida officers ordered a copy from Colorado. Had he been aware of the state's laws, he might have been able to avoid the charges. It does seem like entrapment if approached from this angle. Also, don't law enforcement officials have bigger fish to fry, like say violent and repeat criminals or people who've actually committed acts of pedophilia? He could have actually done investigators a favor, putting purchasers on a sort of watch list.

On the other hand, a majority of the nation is pretty intolerant when it comes to matters like this. It seems like a poor subject to try to market.

Offline Sabby

Re: So, there's a certain book on Amazon.
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2011, 11:02:52 AM »
Honestly, the topic of pedophilia shouldn't be so demonized... not because it's okay. It isn't. It's a horrible thing. But not every pedophile is a creepy stalker in a windowless van trying to lure kids with candy. Its a sexual urge, and like any urge, it's not something everyone has control over. There are plenty of people out there aroused by the thought of children. Maybe it's the size or shape of their bodies, or the kind of relationship an adult shares with a child, but whatever the reason, some people feel this way without wanting to.

How exactly are you supposed to get help for yourself when pedophiles are so brutally lynched? You want to understand and come to terms with these confusing and sickening feelings, but your so frightened of the reaction you choose to hide it instead.

Treating them like freaks helps no one.

Offline Shjade

Re: So, there's a certain book on Amazon.
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2011, 11:45:12 AM »
Treating them like freaks helps no one.
To be fair, being arrested/prosecuted isn't the same as being treated like a freak.

Offline Sabby

Re: So, there's a certain book on Amazon.
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2011, 11:47:14 AM »
The backlash to the book is definitely harsher due to the media's constant targeting of pedophilia.

Offline Oniya

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Re: So, there's a certain book on Amazon.
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2011, 11:56:48 AM »
Let's take a step away from pedophilia:  Suppose there was a book on Amazon that gave people detailed instructions about getting away with regular rape?  Or even further away from sex at all - what if there was a book on Amazon that gave people detailed instructions about getting away with murder, committing arson, or robbing a bank?


Offline Sabby

Re: So, there's a certain book on Amazon.
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2011, 12:26:40 PM »
Did I say I approved of the book? No. That, and all the ones you described, aren't books I'd ever want catching on...

Offline WolfyTopic starter

Re: So, there's a certain book on Amazon.
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2011, 12:27:52 PM »
To be fair, being arrested/prosecuted isn't the same as being treated like a freak.

Well techniqually, you can't be arrested for being a pedophile, I think, as long as you haven't committed any pedophilic acts. :/ I mean, you can say that you are one (I dunno why you would want to, but you can) but until it's found out that you actually committed a crime or something, you can't be arrested for it.

Which it shows through this case, as Hairy said, he was apparently arrested for Obscenity, not pedophilia.

Offline Lyell

Re: So, there's a certain book on Amazon.
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2011, 01:54:26 PM »
what if there was a book on Amazon that gave people detailed instructions about getting away with murder[...]?

You mean, like this?
« Last Edit: April 10, 2011, 01:57:03 PM by Lyell »

Offline Oniya

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Re: So, there's a certain book on Amazon.
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2011, 02:15:51 PM »
I was thinking more of Paladin Press's 'Hitman', which I believe has also been dropped by Amazon. (At least, it wasn't in the first 19 pages of Paladin Press offerings that I paged through.  My search history is a forensic detective's wet dream.)

Offline RubySlippers

Re: So, there's a certain book on Amazon.
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2011, 02:41:23 PM »
Here is my issue is the book bad? Lets say your studying law enforcement or sex predator psychology this could likely be a textbook on how they think and act. Its not much different than many other books like Juliette by DeSade for example is a literary work and therefore protected

What if the same book was put out by a major publisher and a well regarded psychologist as a text for serious use, if say Havard University Press published it as a book by three of their top academics. Its all in context then one is a sick bastard and the other a serious work on criminal behavior used for proper scientific and educational value.

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Re: So, there's a certain book on Amazon.
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2011, 07:02:23 PM »
Why would one be able to successfully write a how-to book?  By being an expert in that activity.  When a man openly touts himself as an expert in something illegal, I would call that probable cause.  There's a difference between being an expert on pedophilia because you have spent years investigating it and being an expert on pedophilia because you've committed it.  The context in which the author gained his knowledge makes a universe of difference between a respectable member of a police force and a sexual deviant who preys on children.

Offline Trieste

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Re: So, there's a certain book on Amazon.
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2011, 08:23:29 PM »
Let's take a step away from pedophilia:  Suppose there was a book on Amazon that gave people detailed instructions about getting away with regular rape?  Or even further away from sex at all - what if there was a book on Amazon that gave people detailed instructions about getting away with murder, committing arson, or robbing a bank?

I believe there is a book like that. It's written by OJ Simpson. >.>

And while people didn't like it, it's still there, and OJ hasn't been arrested for obscenity or indecency or anything like that. Why? Because writing about it doesn't victimize anyone. You can stop reading. If you find it offensive, you can choose not to buy the book.

Offline ShamshielDF

Re: So, there's a certain book on Amazon.
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2011, 12:13:24 AM »
This is one of those really nasty, convoluted issues that comes up with almost disconcerting regularity.  Then the ACLU steps in to defend the persons first amendment rights and everyone screams about the ACLU supporting pedophilia/hate crime/pornography/ad infinitum.

First, let me state that I do not agree with pedophilia at all.  Or, perhaps it would be better to say I don't agree with people that act on such.  If someone has problems, let them find help, but if they never act on it, no crime has been committed.

Do I have a problem with someone writing a book like this?  A text that could be taken by many as a book encouraging people towards illegal/immoral behavior?  Not at all.  Then again, I have no problems with the Anarchist Cookbook or it's ilk, either.

Far worse documents have been around for millenia.  How about a text that advocates slavery, murder and genocide?  That goes on for perhaps hundreds of pages on such topics?  Would you ban the bible from bookstores for having content questionable to modern sensibilities?

In the end, is the publishing of this book actually going to push anyone to commit a crime that they weren't already intent on committing in the first place?  I don't think so.  Is it going to prevent them from being prosecuted, all other aspects being equal?  Again, I don't think so.  In all likelihood, the presence of the book itself could be admitted as evidence in court regarding the persons intent, much as owning child pornography would be admitted for showing a history or a predilection. 

The particular material involved tends to attract more attention than others, but in the end it comes to a question of what information is considered such as to be censored/controlled versus what is socially acceptable.

No, I don't agree with the topic material.

No, I won't buy or even read the book.

No, I won't say that others shouldn't be allowed to read it.

Offline Silk

Re: So, there's a certain book on Amazon.
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2011, 09:58:34 AM »
Well techniqually, you can't be arrested for being a pedophile, I think, as long as you haven't committed any pedophilic acts. :/ I mean, you can say that you are one (I dunno why you would want to, but you can) but until it's found out that you actually committed a crime or something, you can't be arrested for it.

Which it shows through this case, as Hairy said, he was apparently arrested for Obscenity, not pedophilia.

Being a paedophile although connected to child abuse, are not one and the same. To have paedophillia as a crime would contitute thought crime. which is something many contries try to avoid whenever possible, after all, its not illegal to be racist, sexist, homophobic or alike either, regardless of what people would like. But they are often linked to motive behind the crime in question.

Offline Kate

Re: So, there's a certain book on Amazon.
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2011, 05:12:18 AM »
I agree with ShamshielDF.

Personally I don't agree with the theme - most wouldn't.... not many do I assume, but it is a emotionally charged topic when such themes become relevant.

One BIG problem about censorship is that SOMEWHERE someone or some group decides what OTHERS
CAN know
CAN talk of

for an abstract "greater good" (which a few or a law becomes Authoritarian for interpretation) that pre-empts other "goods" that could directly or indirectly come of information concerning it being free.

I don't beleive a country imposing censorship in any way can be morally justified, classifications ? => Fine.

Eg. Perhaps it may trigger some "on the fence" to go "well hey why not give it ago" ... and commit related acts which wouldn't have happened if the material wasn't available for them ( yes I agree that is bad .. and not what the country wants to see, an ideal that is the driving force of censorship). This I do not trust as many who are defending a procecution that it was obvious they were guilty would like to blame an outside influence to get leaniant punishments or recieve less hatred being directed their way.

Ie "the claim of "i wouldnt have done it if it wasn't for ... or i was inspired by ... X", even if true in some instances, is an argument I think generally is best taken with a pinch of salt and not one used to justify directing principals for a society (eg the justification / warranting of censorship or certain laws or constraints being applied universally)

BUT

In the same breath though, ... Lets say the book is one that everyone has read - knowing what to do to protect your own family from the likes, or forming stronger views on the topic - opening forums to talk of its management or forums of

"IS there anything we can do to prevent this kink developing in the first place ?"

Or -

"if some do have the kink for whatever reason can we provide virtual outlet services for them such that they are not needy to care to do so in practice at all ?"

Or -

"Is integration of any form possible at all ?"

... becomes more likely and would lead to more advanced options for the society later... so in the long run the lack of censorship empowers a culture, even if such freedom of information "backfires" in the short term.

Ignorance, no matter how well justified, doesnt permit learning options for a society wishing to mature or develop
« Last Edit: April 26, 2011, 08:55:22 AM by Kate »

Offline Lyell

Re: So, there's a certain book on Amazon.
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2011, 08:16:25 PM »
In the same breath though, ... Lets say the book is one that everyone has read - knowing what to do to protect your own family from the likes, or forming stronger views on the topic - opening forums to talk of its management or forums of

"IS there anything we can do to prevent this kink developing in the first place ?"

Or -

"if some do have the kink for whatever reason can we provide virtual outlet services for them such that they are not needy to care to do so in practice at all ?"

Or -

"Is integration of any form possible at all ?"

... becomes more likely and would lead to more advanced options for the society later... so in the long run the lack of censorship empowers a culture, even if such freedom of information "backfires" in the short term.

Ignorance, no matter how well justified, doesnt permit learning options for a society wishing to mature or develop

This line of thought also brings to mind something I neglected to mention in my own post. A more informed population would be able to recognize dangers more readily and react to them properly. Something about keeping your head in the sand and leaving your ass exposed. This touches base with a real case that happened a few weeks back. Some girl was physically touched by a previously convicted sex offender. Trained -by her parents- to react she slipped out of his grasp and bolted, as opposed to say freezing up and not knowing what to do.