9/11 Conspiracy?

[Mithlomwen]

I don't normally post things in here, as I am not very good at debating.  *laugh*  But I just finished watching an interesting documentary called 911: In plane sight, and found some of the evidence they report to be really compelling. 

Now keep in mind, I'm not saying the makers of the documentary are right, nor am I saying they are wrong, but the evidence definitely gives a person food for thought. 

I'm interested to hear other people's takes on this and hear everyone's thoughts on the evidence presented in the film.

For those who haven't seen it and are interested, I did find that it is posted in six parts here.

[Jude]

http://hw.libsyn.com/p/e/5/1/e511e5148ae8fea6/skeptoid-4085.mp3?sid=5a0fc76d26be6f042f5df59a912c3eb0&l_sid=17974&l_eid=&l_mid=1406413

This link pretty much runs down all of their arguments with ease.

[consortium11]

Without getting into the nitty-gritty.

The conspiracy theories are basically rubbish.

What there was was a combination of complacency, naivety, incompetence and sheer panic at the top levels but in many ways the conspiracy theories detract from that... instead of pointing out that several very dedicated men spent years planning how to exploit a security system that had severe weaknesses in it and that those weakness should be pointed out it instead tries to include it in some big "conspiracy" which means the focus moves away from the failing there were.

What most of the well known conspiracy theories (In Plane Site, Loose Change etc etc) do is include stuff that is true and then either fail to completely report it or attempt to extrapolate fanciful answers from it. Two common examples are the "BBC found several people named as hijackers alive and well" (they did... but it turned out it was just people with the same name) and "steel doesn't melt at the temperature of burning jet fuel" (it doesn't but it loses structural integrity especially combined with the damage caused by a plane hitting the integral shell). The less said about missiles, ghost planes and remote control drones the better...

I also find there's an unpleasant anti-Semitic hint to most of those videos. Despite the standard "illuminati = the jews" angle that gets played out there's also the emphasis on Larry Silverstein and the supposed fact that all the Jews were told not to go to the World Trade centre that day...

[Sabby]

There are very few topics I can't say this with. South Park summed it up best. Those writers have a way of sending up complex political and social issues in absolutely ridiculous parody plots that somehow make a lot of sense.

Basically, all the evidence that supports the 9/11 Conspiracy was put out by the American Government... the President and his group even went as far as having evil villain speeches, rubbing their hands together and talking about 'beautiful money'.

Really, this entire conspiracy was propagated by the Government so they wouldn't look stupid. I mean, what's worse, one of the most powerful nations having its heart torn out, or 'evil master planning President blows up his own Trade Centre and blames it on Muslims so he can steal their oil'. It made them look powerful and in control.

Kyle asked "Wait, so who was responsible for 9/11 then?" Stan replied. "Duh, a bunch of pissed off Muslims" The Hardy Boys added "Yeah, what are you, retarded?"

I'd recommend watching the episode. Its got some bloody great lines and common sense.

[Callie Del Noire]

One of the things that always cracks me up is 'experts' saying that an AV-gas fire couldn't deform steel superstructure buildings.

Anyone who has has ANY fire science or fire fighting training has been told to watch what happens to the area around you. The building is effected in ways that the lay man might not be considering. Air channels shape the fire and the temp of it in ways you wouldn't see in an open fire.

That isn't even accounting for the IMPACT of a multiton aircraft on said structure. The weight of collapsing floors, and a lot of other floors will cause metal to buckle when the heat wouldn't normally do it. Then gravity, and more weight, brings down the whole house of cards.

[RubySlippers]

A quarter of the people in the US will believe anything, look how many are literal one week creationists and think elvis is still alive.

Also since half the people will be for a war and another half against the war we can declare war on anyone if the nation wants to and look like they had no choice.

- South Park sadly is right on both of these counts.

And anyway the Moon Landing was faked at least the first one so the government can do anything it wants clearly. (yes I'm being silly here)

[consortium11]

One of the things that always cracks me up is 'experts' saying that an AV-gas fire couldn't deform steel superstructure buildings.

Anyone who has has ANY fire science or fire fighting training has been told to watch what happens to the area around you. The building is effected in ways that the lay man might not be considering. Air channels shape the fire and the temp of it in ways you wouldn't see in an open fire.

That isn't even accounting for the IMPACT of a multiton aircraft on said structure. The weight of collapsing floors, and a lot of other floors will cause metal to buckle when the heat wouldn't normally do it. Then gravity, and more weight, brings down the whole house of cards.

It's actually an interesting example of seeing denial at work.

When the first versions of most of the infamous conspiracy videos came out (the aforementioned In Plane Site and Loose Change for example) the argument was that it didn't burn hot enough to actually melt the steel. When the counter came that it doesn't have to actually melt to loose its integrity and no longer be effective at load bearing the argument suddenly changed to how it couldn't even deform it...

[Vekseid]

There was a clamor to make sure a pumped sprinkler system would be installed on the highest floors for exactly that reason - that a fire could potentially lead to a catastrophic failure.

[Callie Del Noire]

There was a clamor to make sure a pumped sprinkler system would be installed on the highest floors for exactly that reason - that a fire could potentially lead to a catastrophic failure.

Thing is, for a sprinkler to be effective you have to put water in close by. Pumps are efficient enough over a certain distance. Too much pressure for too little payout. You would have needed a series of staggered tanks to foot effectively. That's a he'll of a lot of water weight

And an 747 smacking into the building would have made it moot anyway. The towers would have come down anyway. Possible a bit later but the would have. I doubt there is a structure in the world that could have taken that sort of hit

[Revolverman]

767s, not 747s. A much smaller plane (though you are still right.)

[Major Major]

And an 747 smacking into the building would have made it moot anyway. The towers would have come down anyway. Possible a bit later but the would have. I doubt there is a structure in the world that could have taken that sort of hit

Well, a B-25 Mitchell did hit the 78th floor of the Empire State Building in 1945, and it's still standing. Granted, a 767 is a lot bigger than a B-25, but still, makes you think, doesn't it?

[MasterMischief]

I am generally skeptical of conspiracies because, in my experience, people can't keep their mouths shut.  The sheer number of people you would have to silence makes conspiracies impractical in most cases.

Please note, I am not saying impossible or that it never happens.

[Callie Del Noire]

Well, a B-25 Mitchell did hit the 78th floor of the Empire State Building in 1945, and it's still standing. Granted, a 767 is a lot bigger than a B-25, but still, makes you think, doesn't it?

How fast was it going? What was it's payload, how far into the structure did it get? How much fuel did it have? These are all factors.

That collision was amazing in many many ways. It's truly amazing that it didn't mess the building up more than it did.

One of the things that got me about the conspiracy nuts is how they can ignore some of the factors.  Like, yes.. the steel might not MELT but substained fire at the temps of burning AV-Gas will distemper the metal, which reduces it's strength. Add in the multi-ton deformation that was just done to the superstructure of the building and the question is.. when now if the building collapses.

[Major Major]

According to Wikipedia, the B-25 had been on a transport mission from Boston to NY, and was circling to land at LaGuardia when the pilot got lost in fog, and flew into the North Face of the Empire State Building, probably at or about cruising speed (230mph).

[Mithlomwen]

I think a couple of the things that struck me, were some of the eyewitness accounts that were taken immediately following the incidents.  There was one eyewitness who worked for Fox news at the time who (in the interview with him immediately following the second plane hitting the tower) he remarked that it didn't look like a commercial airline to him, and then went on to describe what he saw, and another eyewitness caught on tape saying that it wasn't an American Airlines plane. 

The other thing that got my attention was the footage they were showing (in the documentary) of the small flashes that occurred in both towers seconds before impact.  Almost as if a bomb had gone off, seconds prior to the planes making impact. 

[Silk]

But there is nothing saying that the bombs if there was any, couldnt of been planted prior, just as a assurance, because a bomb in a building isnt nearly as captiivating as planes going into them.

[Zakharra]

 Unfortunately, I think eyewitness accounts are proven to be less than reliable. People remember facts wrong. Video is a much better source of evidence.

[Vekseid]

I think a couple of the things that struck me, were some of the eyewitness accounts that were taken immediately following the incidents.  There was one eyewitness who worked for Fox news at the time who (in the interview with him immediately following the second plane hitting the tower) he remarked that it didn't look like a commercial airline to him, and then went on to describe what he saw, and another eyewitness caught on tape saying that it wasn't an American Airlines plane. 

The other thing that got my attention was the footage they were showing (in the documentary) of the small flashes that occurred in both towers seconds before impact.  Almost as if a bomb had gone off, seconds prior to the planes making impact.

...if it wasn't an American Airlines plane where is Daniel Lewin? Where are the rest of the victims? Where are the planes? What happened to the flights that used those planes?

That's the sickest part of it, to me - pretending that real, live, human beings with a history, life and families who were murdered that day simply never existed. That to me is far worse than believing tens to hundreds of thousands of people are involved in a coverup.

And if there were bombs in the towers, you wouldn't see flashes just before impact - you wouldn't see flashes from the bombs at all. You'd only see shatter glass and dust as it blew out of the tower.

[Mithlomwen]

...if it wasn't an American Airlines plane where is Daniel Lewin? Where are the rest of the victims? Where are the planes? What happened to the flights that used those planes?

That's the sickest part of it, to me - pretending that real, live, human beings with a history, life and families who were murdered that day simply never existed. That to me is far worse than believing tens to hundreds of thousands of people are involved in a coverup.

That's sort of the discussion myself and my husband were having.  I asked him virtually the same thing.  If they weren't AA planes, then what about all of the people that were supposedly on board?  What about the people who called their loved ones on Flight 93 before the passengers took the plane down in PA?  Did the government make them up?  Did they put them all into the witness protection program? 

I just have a hard time wrapping my brain around the idea that all of this was staged by our government as the enormity of the logistics involved is staggering.  Not saying it's not possible, I just can't see how it would work given everything involved in pulling it off. 

Again, I'm not saying the makers of the film are right or wrong, I just found some of evidence compelling and wanted to hear what other people thought too. 

[Vekseid]

It's not just a matter of it being a coverup.

You will be hard pressed to meet a soul who has used the Internet in the past decade who has not had data sent to them through Daniel Lewin's company (Akamai). Some of the people on those planes changed the world. And every one of them had parents.

[Sabby]

This is the problem with conspiracies... when you actually run the numbers, they just make the 'official story' so much easier to believe.

After reading all the stuff you guys have posted, it's a LOT easier to believe some 'pissed off Muslims did it'

[TheGlyphstone]

Not to mention the economic angle.

After paying to plant explosives, paying to build fake planes, paying people to plant the explosives and keep their mouths shut, pay off everyone who knew about it...it's cheaper to actually hire real terrorists, isn't it?

[Oniya]

Especially since real terrorists would probably do it for free.   

[Noelle]

This, mostly.

[Sabby]

Dang o.o that money trick is creepy...