The Execution of Saddam Hussein: Good Timing or Bad Timing?

[Zakharra]

 Their differences are not racial, but religious. Sunni vesus Shiite, versus Kurd. Physically, they look very similar and are of the same ethnic grouping.

Also, it's not their problem if the government incites them.  A government who is calling itself a democracy can't alienate a portion of it's population.

Name one democratic government that has not alienated some segment of it's population. There are none. In every country, there will always be some group that feels discriminated against.

[NightBird]

With my being at a conference in Atlanta these past few days, I haven't caught much news, but I thought I'd offer this link discussing strong reactions from Hussein's birthplace:  http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1980921,00.html

One can hope the statements are passion of the moment, but it seems a forlorn one to me.

Also, the Kurds are considered an ethnic group, where the Sunni and Shia are two sects of Islam that initially divided over who should be Mohammed's successor. Over time, more differences developed, but that was the origin of the split. The issues among these various groups underlines the difficulties that exist in attempting to create a nation state in areas with no historical developmental process to support it, and where the national boundaries were arbitrarily drawn by European Great Powers. It's typical Western hubris to think a viable political entity can be created in that manner and maintained by democracy.

[Elvi]

Oh bugger....the Kurds......
They are predominantly Sunni Muslims, however, they are a 'nation' in themselves.....a complicated ...infact very complicated story.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

They look similiar to you.  There are numerous cases ranging from Eastern Europe to Africa where different ethnic groups that most would consider similiar looking and probably of the same gene pool saw differences.  When you are in the ethnic group in question, the differences are real and matter to you.  For instance, I cannot tell the difference from one asian ethnicity to another.  I simply can't, nor am I good at determing the differences between hispanic groups....they can tell the differences.  These differences are very real to them.

As for naming a democracy that doesn't alienate it's people, that would be imposible.  At the same time, it's not exactly something that those democracies promote.  The United States suffered dearly for alienating its African-American population in the 60s, along with it's population of women at around the same time period.  Following that were the protests of homsexuals.  The Great Depression almost resulted in a socialist revolution in the United States, to the point of social welfare programs being put in place to find a compromise, coming from the alienation of the poor.  While no country perfectly blends its citizens together, they at least make an effort to do so.  The new Iraqi government not only didn't do this, it tore the groups apart.

Yes, the Iraqi conflict is indeed an example of hubris.  We came in wanting to bring democracy to the world, our government is obviously the supreme form and they would herald us in.  Take out the dictator and give these people what they must want, our government.  Do this also while telling the rest of the world to kiss our butts and mind their own buisness.

[Sugarman (hal)]

With my being at a conference in Atlanta these past few days, I haven't caught much news, but I thought I'd offer this link discussing strong reactions from Hussein's birthplace:  http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1980921,00.html

One can hope the statements are passion of the moment, but it seems a forlorn one to me.

Also, the Kurds are considered an ethnic group, where the Sunni and Shia are two sects of Islam that initially divided over who should be Mohammed's successor. Over time, more differences developed, but that was the origin of the split. The issues among these various groups underlines the difficulties that exist in attempting to create a nation state in areas with no historical developmental process to support it, and where the national boundaries were arbitrarily drawn by European Great Powers. It's typical Western hubris to think a viable political entity can be created in that manner and maintained by democracy.

"The Persians have killed him. I can't believe it. By God, we will take revenge,"

I thought this interesting... how deeply different the people of Iraq see themselves from one another. It was a big surprise to Bush I am sure. But he went in blindly as our government seems to do all to often.   

[RubySlippers]

I say we pull out and retreat to Kurdistan after we make them an independent state, let the rest of Iraq tear itself apart until one side wins then deal with the government that pops up. All that time building up our military position in Kurdistan our land rights there fixed for our support in the UN in making them a nation. After all we have the army there, a miltary force is power and they are the only group in the region of Iraq we can trust and deal with. They want a free Kurdistan so lets give that to them. And it would be a fine lever against Syria, Iran and Iraq when things settle down. And if attacked we can invoke the NATO treaty to bring in Turkey and our Eurpopean allies.

Why make this more complicated than we have to?

[Sugarman (hal)]

I say we pull out and retreat to Kurdistan after we make them an independent state, let the rest of Iraq tear itself apart until one side wins then deal with the government that pops up. All that time building up our military position in Kurdistan our land rights there fixed for our support in the UN in making them a nation. After all we have the army there, a miltary force is power and they are the only group in the region of Iraq we can trust and deal with. They want a free Kurdistan so lets give that to them. And it would be a fine lever against Syria, Iran and Iraq when things settle down. And if attacked we can invoke the NATO treaty to bring in Turkey and our Eurpopean allies.

Why make this more complicated than we have to?

Point well taken.

The cost of staying put in Iraq is staggering.

To raise 10,000 additional troops is estimated to cost 1.3 billion and will need 10 to 20 times that many troops to even stabilize the situation. Truly a nasty mess. Thanks Mr President... so much.

[Elvi]

You want to give them a 'free' Kurdistan?

So.......you going to start a war with Turkey, Russia and Iran to get those parts back?

[National Acrobat]

I say we pull out and retreat to Kurdistan after we make them an independent state, let the rest of Iraq tear itself apart until one side wins then deal with the government that pops up. All that time building up our military position in Kurdistan our land rights there fixed for our support in the UN in making them a nation. After all we have the army there, a miltary force is power and they are the only group in the region of Iraq we can trust and deal with. They want a free Kurdistan so lets give that to them. And it would be a fine lever against Syria, Iran and Iraq when things settle down. And if attacked we can invoke the NATO treaty to bring in Turkey and our Eurpopean allies.

Why make this more complicated than we have to?

An Independent Kurdish state would be wiped off the map by Turkey, Iran and Russia in a heartbeat. The Turks are already barely being held in check by the US and Britain from wiping out the Kurds that live in Turkey, and on more than one occaision, they have crossed the border into Iraq intending to cause mischief in the Kurdish part of Iraq, only to be forcefully told to go home by the US.

The Kurds will not compromise on the borders of what they consider to be 'Free Kurdistan'. Such a country to them would include land currently part of Turkey, Iran and Russia, and they have explicitly stated that such land belongs to them, and any Kurdish state must include it. So you can see where this will lead. For their part, the Turks, Iranians and Russians do not want to A) give up their territory and B) want the Kurds and their influences out of their country if at all possible.

The only reason the Turks aren't overrunning the Kurdish part of Iraq is the US Military Prescence. Once we exit and the Kurds set up their autonomous state with Iraqi/Kurdish Military and Police Protection, you can bet the Turks will start to agitate them.

[Elvi]

It's one of the sticking points in having Turkey in the EU, we had a huge influx of Kurdish Turks, as refugees, after the first Gulf war.
Turkey used it as a mask to have a go at them and push them back towards the boarders and Britain has been slapping them for it ever since.

[delle]

Such a coincidence it should be mentioned that Saddam is seen as a martyr... and the time of his death compared to Christmas Eve.

I was just pondering:

According to the bible, Jesus was heckled before he died. He is seen as a martyr, and today, the holy symbol for Christianity is a naked man nailed to a cross.

Saddam Hussein was heckled before he died, and people now see him as a martyr. What if one day, the symbol for Islam is a chubby bearded man hanging by a noose? 

I must be going nuts. 

[NightBird]

Maybe it's not nuts at all, Delle...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070104/wl_mideast_afp/libyasaddamexecute

[Zakharra]

 They are ignoring the fact that he killed Muslims at a high pace, was a secularist and was reviled by all of his neighbors.  It's like saying that Charles Dalmer(sp) is to be canonized as a saint in the Catholic Church.

[Elvi]

Zakharra,
The politics and religions of the Middle East isn't just black and white.

Have Christians killed Christians, simply because they have a different outlook upon how they practice their religion or live in a country that they are at war with?

Look at the Musslim sects in the same way as you would look at Catholics, Protestants, Born again Christians, Mormons, Penticostalists and every other type that are around and then rethink what you have just said.

[Elvi]

And this isn't going to help matters either.......

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/15012007/325/film-shows-saddam-s-brother-beheaded.html

[Zaer Darkwail]

Aye, religions and politics are not blakc and white (like world is not). After thousands of years Sadam Hussein can be saint because some lunatic wroted a bible of him where he REASONED why he had killed hundreds of fellow citizens or developed other lie cover it up.

Who can say they TRULY know what Jesus was? According one source he was bandit about 30 years (probably oldest bible) in desert before he 'found the light' but according my personall belief he simply created cult to gain power. I dont mean this as offense to any strongly Christian but logically I believe the present bible is not 100% true because same book has been rewriten many times over the thousands of years and rewriten occassionally also by corrupt priests who wanted get more power over generall populace in middle-ages (when church power was most highest factor everywhere, influencing art, politics and even warfare and if someone wanted become true politician they needed only study at Vatican to become bishop).

So, my basic point is that anyone can become saint if enough time passes and if even smallest group of people hold their image of the person as saint (andif they get enough power spread this belief wide area it's survivalbillity increases).

[Sugarman (hal)]

And this isn't going to help matters either.......

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/15012007/325/film-shows-saddam-s-brother-beheaded.html

It seems blunder after blunder happens there. Madness all around.