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Author Topic: Seriously E? No "Arizona Anti-Immigrant Law" thread?  (Read 13781 times)

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Offline Lyell

Re: Seriously E? No "Arizona Anti-Immigrant Law" thread?
« Reply #200 on: August 08, 2010, 06:27:40 PM »
         That is not historically accurate.  Slavery came before a long and continuing struggle for civil rights.  It was quite legal.  Chinese railroad labor came before the Chinese Exclusion Act, which then made it legal to target people the government was previously so interested in legally hosting.  If the atmosphere is heady enough, people can find a legal reason for all sorts of choices.  If only some judge of the day chooses to allow it, or some executive chooses to enforce it.  Or perhaps they'll take a look around, and decide hmm that isn't such a good idea for the good of the country and all the principles it has to balance.  http://www.ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?flash=old&doc=47
          In short, there have always been cross-cutting issues throughout the history of the United States.  That goes with having ready sources of labor for whatever the less desirable job of the day is, and with business giving workers in that industry low security and minimal payment.  In the short run, it's called national economic good.  In the long run, it happens to make for a more diverse and flexible culture, to the extent we don't manage to scare each group away completely after the fact.  To only mention the positively famous sorts:  Where would the US be without all the once-embattled Italians and Irish who built up the East, the Chinese doctors, German scientists, Jewish academics?  Not to mention historically the Black plantation laborers and now Hispanic field workers and housekeepers?  Legal or not, the economy hasn't been equal or fair to any of them.   

         Earlier, we've seen some people trying to argue that immigration is too easy on Hispanics because earlier immigrant groups had to suffer harder working conditions, and even discriminatory social conditions.  Which may or may not have been legal at the time, but would hardly pass muster now -- that is, if they were actually subjected to review.  Either support working one's way up through gross adversity without formal equality, or hold up equal opportunity under the law for everyone and keep it there.  But that's it.  The economy isn't set up to work that way.  We see it with glass ceilings on gender and elusive employer actions on race, too.  As long as there is little such basic equality, the government has a liability to everyone the system exploits -- no matter whether they happen to be citizens or not.  I do think it's more reasonable to argue about whether and heavens, how, that might change.  Rather than to go on and on:  Oh look this law is on the books, so we must toss aside everything else and go into the deep end of the pool about this and this only.  Anyway, I'm more than a little skeptical that the business leaders of America would really adopt an egalitarian system across the board.


You're seriously going to compare slaves, wartime refugees and legal immigrants to a mass exodus from poverty in Mexico? Bright, intelligent and skilled people who came from socialist and communist nations? Chinese laborers escaping a retirement plan that boiled down to a long nap in a shallow grave? Sorry, not going to buy that. It is the government's system that is doing all the exploiting. Illegal immigrants have confidence that they won't be deported, especially when a child would secure a place in the states or cities will loudly and proudly declare themselves 'sanctuary cities.'
It's the very lax current illegal immigrant policies themselves that have created the current problem. You're STILL trying to cram it down my throat that these illegal immigrants are just taking jobs that I and others don't want to do. Here's a secret: I don't want to do any work. I go to a job happily because the things I want require money. Money in amounts that the undocumented laborers will never see, because they're using what meager funds they aquire to eek out a living and send money back to their families. Me? I've already said I'd pick crops or slog through shit or dig trenches if it paid my bills. But why is anyone going to hire me to do that when any number of illegal immigrants is willing to do it for less than minimum wage?

Now, whoever benefitted from that person's slave wage can under-cut competing goods or services and still make more profit than some business who does everything by the books. Government policy is there to keep that from happening, so why does it not? Lack of enforcement. The policies are there to protect our own unskilled labor, but the federal government doesn't enforce those policies.

Compare Arizona a year ago to Arizona today. Police can now impound your vehicle for picking up a day laborer from the side of the street. A year ago you wouldn't find anyone in front of a Home Depot after 11 a.m. Now? There's a crowd standing around wondering 'what the shit?' Presence or percieved presence of state authorities and legislation to back them has done most of the enforcing for them, something the Feds never had or bothered to do.

You're right about the government making laws when the situation fits, but I'd have a pick in hand right now if there were any mines nearby that needed me.

Offline Jude

Re: Seriously E? No "Arizona Anti-Immigrant Law" thread?
« Reply #201 on: August 08, 2010, 06:30:59 PM »
Lets see you pay more for the work and offer benefits Americans will do most jobs the fact they used to work in animal meat processing and did it for safetymeasures, benefits and more pay proves that.  The new labor tossed out the old since they will work for less and don't care about safety as much as a union master butcher at a pork processing plant where myrelatives worked in the 70's and 80's before foreign labor came in.
That sounds like a solution, but if you offer better wages and benefits for those low income unskilled jobs then the cost of the products they make will skyrocket.  When you buy meat the grocery store you'll be paying those benefits and those increased wages.  Everything that currently uses cheap labor off the books will increase dramatically in price, which will cause a ricochet effect throughout the economy that essentially results in money being worth significantly less.  In the end, the unskilled laborer may benefit slightly, but everyone else suffers.  There's also no way they'd raise wages that high and offer benefits; they'd simply cater to high school dropouts for work, where they'd have to pay an extra 3-8% of what they currently do according to that study, however another study on the overall impact concludes that that Americans as a whole would lose about 4% of real wages from removing illegal immigrants from the labor pool.  That's a net loss, not a gain.
Don't you ever say that Americans work hard but we do as ones of any race wants to make money sufficient for the efforts, say farm labor you pay an average High School grad $15 an hour plus benefits they would likely work at such jobs. But food would cost a little more. After all unpleasant work often had to pay higher wages my uncle at the time made over $28 an hour as head butcher on the line with his union training and seniority. But meat did cost more that is a fair exchangewith I will note these jobs needing only a High School diploma.
You fail to realize that while this would help people with only a high school diploma, the price increase would destroy the finances of middle class people who are struggling to support families and barely make ends meet as is.  The net effect of removing illegal immigrants essentially sounds to me like rewarding unskilled workers at the cost of everyone else.
And illegal immigration is not fair to those that came here legally, to others that would take work if it paid properly and givien proper benefits must I add this includes everyone born here including those of many descents.
But as I've already said, the statistics show that the increase in wages for unskilled labor would not be dramatic as you claim; unless you have evidence to back that up.  In which case, is a 3-8% increase for high school drop outs, a loss of wealth for most everyone else, and higher prices really worth the cost it would take to actually enforce the immigration laws to begin with and somehow build an ironclad defensive line along the border with Mexico?

From a practical viewpoint it isn't possible, with a cost-benefits analysis it isn't worthwhile, and from a moral standpoint it's probably equally abominable to do mass-deportations:  I'm not really sure where the gain is here.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2010, 06:32:57 PM by Jude »

Offline cassia

Re: Seriously E? No "Arizona Anti-Immigrant Law" thread?
« Reply #202 on: August 08, 2010, 06:53:28 PM »
So the justification for allowing illegal immigration, which exploits these immigrants at the same time it allows them to flagrantly break the law and take benefits that only legal residents contribute to funding, is that the middle class would have to give up some luxuries and the ones at the bottom will slip to working-class?

If you're middle class and can't afford a 4% financial hit, you're living above your means. That 4% decrease in available income could happen at any time, if you get sick and have medical bills that eat it up, if you're injured and can't work as much for awhile, if your job cuts your hours, if you have to take a transfer to somewhere far enough away to triple your gasoline usage.

When our standard of living is inflated because we're depending on illegal activity to keep prices low, we need a reality check and to get used to living with a bit less. Maybe we need some other laws changed to ease the burden, like relaxing restrictions on how many people can live in a 2-bedroom apartment so more can share rent together, and offer more tax incentives to cities that build usable public transit systems.

We don't even need to deport anyone who's already here. Write the bill so that they can stay, if they allow themselves to be documented, pass a background check, and pay a fine. Those that can't or won't complete the process, or come over later, are the ones who wouldn't be allowed to stay.

Offline Jude

Re: Seriously E? No "Arizona Anti-Immigrant Law" thread?
« Reply #203 on: August 08, 2010, 09:02:10 PM »
If the wages that illegal immigrants are being paid are so terrible, then why do they come here?  And why would they stay when they do?  The answer simple:  they can live a better life as illegal immigrants here making less than minimum wage than they can if they stay in Mexico.  Offering someone a better life in exchange for economic benefits to the entire country doesn't really sound like exploitation to me.  It's more like a mutually beneficial agreement.

The point is, the people who believe illegal immigration is an economic issue are on the wrong side of the facts.  There are numerous studies that indicate that illegal immigration makes us more wealthy as a country.  Back in 1980 before the most recent flood of immigrants it was well-established amongst economists that illegal immigration was good for America, then there was a wave of massive immigration during the 90s (accompanied by massive economic growth I might add) which had no observable negative impact on the economy.  The data simply isn't there:  they took our jobs doesn't pan out.

As far as whether or not this would help the poor:  I doubt it.  You say people need to cut back, do you know what would happen if the middle class did that?  Less demand plus higher prices and increased frugality equals fewer jobs.  The very jobs we're discussing here are products which are sold to the middle class.  Lets see, less demand and more cost per laborer; how exactly does that add up to helping the poor?  Remember, the 3-8% increase is amongst people who didn't finish high school, not John Doe who got laid off by Boeing after working as an Engineer for 15 years and can't make his mortgage payment.

I wonder where the poor are going to get the money to relocate to these jobs (travel expenses, finding a place to stay, et cetera), considering the majority of positions that illegal immigrants take that have been discussed on this thread exist in the countryside and rural areas.

None of this even argues the practicality of any proposal.  Did you know that the Mexican border is 3141 km?  Building a fence would be one of the largest construction projects ever undertaken by the United States, and policing it so that people don't simply climb over it or dig under it... well, that's another problem.  Then there's the fact that a large portion of illegal immigrants are the type who come here and simply stay after their visa expires...

So lets see, it benefits us economically, it would cost us in both GDP and wealth to get rid of it, furthermore it would require more laws, government spending, and government power to actually enforce a ban on illegal immigration.  I have a feeling if I ever figure out why the conservative party in the US is against illegal immigration, the answer will have 42 letters.

Offline Serephino

Re: Seriously E? No "Arizona Anti-Immigrant Law" thread?
« Reply #204 on: August 08, 2010, 09:26:02 PM »
Jude does have a point.  People not spending money is what has caused the mess we're in now.  Can we really afford to make it worse?  I definitely things like outsourcing to India need to quit....  but if someone wants to come here and work...  Those immigrants spend the money they earn.

And forget about the middle class; what about me?  As it is, at the end of the month both my boyfriend and I have less than $5 in our bank accounts.  How are we, and others like us, going to afford an increase in goods.  Is wanting to eat and having heat in the winter living above our means?  We go out on a date once a month, but other than that, every penny goes to bills, rent, food, pet care, and clothes.  My stupid piece of shit car is fixing to blow up any day now. 

Assuming that people who can't afford an increase in prices are just living above their means and could scale back is wrong.  Maybe some, but not all.  When prices went up because the price of oil skyrocketed the one summer was enough of a catastrophe to make the evening news just about every day.  How would prices going up due to lack of cheap labor be any different? 

Offline Lyell

Re: Seriously E? No "Arizona Anti-Immigrant Law" thread?
« Reply #205 on: August 08, 2010, 10:07:27 PM »
Jude does have a point.  People not spending money is what has caused the mess we're in now.  Can we really afford to make it worse?


Unemployed Americans spend less than employed illegal immigrants.

And people spending money they DIDN'T have is more of a contributer to the 'mess' than anyone defending bending over backwards for the 'needy' wants to admit. Fannie May and Freddie Mac created a mortgage crisis by lending money to banks so that the banks could lend money to people for houses. Loans that those people couldn't pay. And everyone who defaulted passed the debt onto the government. Forclosure sales don't even compensate for half of the loss.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Seriously E? No "Arizona Anti-Immigrant Law" thread?
« Reply #206 on: August 08, 2010, 11:08:16 PM »
If the wages that illegal immigrants are being paid are so terrible, then why do they come here?  And why would they stay when they do?  The answer simple:  they can live a better life as illegal immigrants here making less than minimum wage than they can if they stay in Mexico.  Offering someone a better life in exchange for economic benefits to the entire country doesn't really sound like exploitation to me.  It's more like a mutually beneficial agreement.

The point is, the people who believe illegal immigration is an economic issue are on the wrong side of the facts.  There are numerous studies that indicate that illegal immigration makes us more wealthy as a country.  Back in 1980 before the most recent flood of immigrants it was well-established amongst economists that illegal immigration was good for America, then there was a wave of massive immigration during the 90s (accompanied by massive economic growth I might add) which had no observable negative impact on the economy.  The data simply isn't there:  they took our jobs doesn't pan out.

As far as whether or not this would help the poor:  I doubt it.  You say people need to cut back, do you know what would happen if the middle class did that?  Less demand plus higher prices and increased frugality equals fewer jobs.  The very jobs we're discussing here are products which are sold to the middle class.  Lets see, less demand and more cost per laborer; how exactly does that add up to helping the poor?  Remember, the 3-8% increase is amongst people who didn't finish high school, not John Doe who got laid off by Boeing after working as an Engineer for 15 years and can't make his mortgage payment.

I wonder where the poor are going to get the money to relocate to these jobs (travel expenses, finding a place to stay, et cetera), considering the majority of positions that illegal immigrants take that have been discussed on this thread exist in the countryside and rural areas.

None of this even argues the practicality of any proposal.  Did you know that the Mexican border is 3141 km?  Building a fence would be one of the largest construction projects ever undertaken by the United States, and policing it so that people don't simply climb over it or dig under it... well, that's another problem.  Then there's the fact that a large portion of illegal immigrants are the type who come here and simply stay after their visa expires...

So lets see, it benefits us economically, it would cost us in both GDP and wealth to get rid of it, furthermore it would require more laws, government spending, and government power to actually enforce a ban on illegal immigration.  I have a feeling if I ever figure out why the conservative party in the US is against illegal immigration, the answer will have 42 letters.

 So... we should just ignore illegal imigration then and give them a pass on BREAKING THE LAW?! Screw that. I don't want them for one simple reason. They are here ILLEGALLY. Breaking the law. You who want to give them a pass are making a bad, a very bad mistake since you are wanting to put in a precedent to ignore a national law that a LOT of people want enforced. What do you think every other civilized and uncivilized nation would do to them if they found them? I will bet money most would arrest and deport them at the least.

 I do not care if it is 'good for the economy'. That is a stupid argument. If there is a economic impact, we will overcome and grow out of it. By allowing illegals to be here and wanting to give them a pass (which is what ANY attempt to make them legal is), you are spitting on the legal immigrants that do go through the long drawn out process of becomong a legal immigrant.

Offline Jude

Re: Seriously E? No "Arizona Anti-Immigrant Law" thread?
« Reply #207 on: August 08, 2010, 11:32:06 PM »
So... make it not illegal.

Offline Lyell

Re: Seriously E? No "Arizona Anti-Immigrant Law" thread?
« Reply #208 on: August 09, 2010, 01:05:10 AM »
Yes, destroy the border. That couldn't possibly screw anyone over.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Seriously E? No "Arizona Anti-Immigrant Law" thread?
« Reply #209 on: August 09, 2010, 01:25:08 AM »
So... make it not illegal.

 That doesn't work.  If we let anyone that wants in, in, immigration will be more out of control than ever. There are tens to hundreds of thousands of legal immigrants doing it the proper way. And millions of illegals who do not give a shit about our laws, doing it the wrong way.

 It's the illegals that people like you Jude, want to help skip and IGNORE how they are breaking several laws. One of which is identity theft. If any illegal gives a SS number, they are participationg in a federal crime and should be kicked out when caught. They are stealing an American's SS humber for their own illegal usage. Should that be forgiven?  How many laws are you willing to overlook them breaking in order to make them legal? What about the people who are doing it the legal and proper way? How do you think it makes them feel wihen people are demanding to make the illegals, who are doing it the wrong way, be made legal citizens?

Offline Trieste

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Re: Seriously E? No "Arizona Anti-Immigrant Law" thread?
« Reply #210 on: August 09, 2010, 07:03:09 AM »
While I'm not advocating mass amnesty, I'm a little tired of hearing that argument. My heart goes out to people who have gone through the correct channels, it really does, but they are only part of a whole. They are only a piece of the puzzle. The solution to this problem should be something that is beneficial to us as a country, and beneficial to the majority of the population. "How do you think that makes them feel?!" is all fine and good, but I believe they should be thinking about what's best for their new home country, not whether or not someone else had it 'easier' (I can tell you from personal experience that living in a country illegally is nerve-wracking and far from easy) than they did.

Offline Lyell

Re: Seriously E? No "Arizona Anti-Immigrant Law" thread?
« Reply #211 on: August 09, 2010, 07:54:53 AM »
The solution to this problem should be something that is beneficial to us as a country, and beneficial to the majority of the population.

There are several compelling arguments that don't involve other people's feelings and have everything to do with benefitting the country here:

http://www.fairus.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=16701&security=1601&news_iv_ctrl=1007

Offline auroraChloe

Re: Seriously E? No "Arizona Anti-Immigrant Law" thread?
« Reply #212 on: August 09, 2010, 08:03:32 AM »
Those immigrants spend the money they earn.

And forget about the middle class; what about me?  As it is, at the end of the month both my boyfriend and I have less than $5 in our bank accounts.  How are we, and others like us, going to afford an increase in goods.  Is wanting to eat and having heat in the winter living above our means? 

 How would prices going up due to lack of cheap labor be any different? 


they don't spend it all.  i have seen a rather large group sharing an apartment so their rent and bills are diluted by the sharing and a lot of their paycheck is sent back 'home' to relatives.  they don't pay taxes for like five years even when they do come in legally.  (this was the case some time ago when i worked in a factory so don't jump all over my ass if the law is changed.)

why would prices have to go up?  because the consumer will take the brunt of it rather than the corporation's profits and huge ass salaries.  rant/ walmart is great isn't it?  i think 70% or maybe more of their shelves are loaded with product made in china.  cheap overhead (labor & products) + low wages = capitalism.  there are like 3 members of the Walton family on the top ten gazzillionaires list.  keep shopping there to put money in their pockets. /rant   


but I believe they should be thinking about what's best for their new home country,


some adopt the usa as theirs, some use it for all its worth.  but that isn't much different from some long time citizens so. 

The solution to this problem should be something that is beneficial to us as a country, and beneficial to the majority of the population.

then again thinking of the country as a whole is akin to socialism.  that won't fly far.   

Offline Lyell

Re: Seriously E? No "Arizona Anti-Immigrant Law" thread?
« Reply #213 on: August 09, 2010, 08:12:47 AM »
then again thinking of the country as a whole is akin to socialism.  that won't fly far.

Please don't jump to a 'your phrasing insinuates socialism, therefor your ideals must be anti-capitalism!' It makes a them versus us, me versus you, left versus right atmosphere that detracts from actual debate.

Offline auroraChloe

Re: Seriously E? No "Arizona Anti-Immigrant Law" thread?
« Reply #214 on: August 09, 2010, 08:34:18 AM »
Please don't jump to a 'your phrasing insinuates socialism, therefor your ideals must be anti-capitalism!' It makes a them versus us, me versus you, left versus right atmosphere that detracts from actual debate.

well, i'm not a great debater.  it is just my observation that phrasing about benefiting the country as a whole is labeled as such.  and it flies with me just fine, just not everyone else. 

*bows out* 

Offline Trieste

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Re: Seriously E? No "Arizona Anti-Immigrant Law" thread?
« Reply #215 on: August 09, 2010, 08:45:21 AM »
Lyell, do me a favor and ask for clarification next time as opposed to assuming, because you just made an ass of yourself by jumping on her.

I didn't take that statement as an anti-capitalist dig, but a wry commentary on how reactionary politics can get.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Seriously E? No "Arizona Anti-Immigrant Law" thread?
« Reply #216 on: August 09, 2010, 11:02:12 AM »
 
Quote
Those immigrants spend the money they earn.

 That part I will take exception too. Most of the illegals money was not spent in the US, but sent to their familes back home.  Fully 10% of Mexico's GDP, I believe, was made from money their illegals here in the US sent -back- home. Hense a reason Mexico is trying to stop anything that can and will stop/bar the illegals here from working. Concidering Mexico's immigration policy and citizenship laws, they are being very hypocritical about the US's response.

While I'm not advocating mass amnesty, I'm a little tired of hearing that argument. My heart goes out to people who have gone through the correct channels, it really does, but they are only part of a whole. They are only a piece of the puzzle. The solution to this problem should be something that is beneficial to us as a country, and beneficial to the majority of the population. "How do you think that makes them feel?!" is all fine and good, but I believe they should be thinking about what's best for their new home country, not whether or not someone else had it 'easier' (I can tell you from personal experience that living in a country illegally is nerve-wracking and far from easy) than they did.

 A lot of politicians and pundants are advocating that. At least a path that would get them voting a lot sooner. You recall the nation's responbse to that? A LOT of the population, well over 50%, was very mad about giving the illegals any benefits at all. There were even polls done with legal immigrants, and they were not pleased about that either. They had to jump through all of the hoops to get citizenship and it was looking like the Congress was going to give illegals a shortcut to that.

 The solution is not an easy one, not will it be easy. Most people do not want to give the illegals a bone because they see the illegals benefitting from breaking the law. 'Break a law and get a gift', sort of thing. Most of the nation (over 50%) supports Arizona's law because they see the federal government doing -nothing- to enforce the borders and immigration.

 Which is a alot of what this boils down to. The government not doing it's bloody job. Hells, it is openly stating that it will NOT do it's job if any illegals were handed over to INC/ICE.  How can the people trust the government when it's refusing to do one of the most basic tasks in the Constitution? Protecting the borders. If the Democrats are still parroting wanting to give illegals something, that is likely going to bite them in the ass this November.

Offline Jude

Re: Seriously E? No "Arizona Anti-Immigrant Law" thread?
« Reply #217 on: August 09, 2010, 11:35:57 AM »
Just for the record, FAIR is hardly a reliable resource.  They're true bigots in my opinion; they're not just against illegal immigration, they want to cut down on all immigration, even legal.

That part I will take exception too. Most of the illegals money was not spent in the US, but sent to their familes back home.  Fully 10% of Mexico's GDP, I believe, was made from money their illegals here in the US sent -back- home. Hense a reason Mexico is trying to stop anything that can and will stop/bar the illegals here from working. Concidering Mexico's immigration policy and citizenship laws, they are being very hypocritical about the US's response.
Please do research before you make bold claims.
Quote
The impact of illegal immigration on the U.S. economy.

8.1 million: illegal immigrants

$1.8 trillion: annual spending, U.S.

$220.7 billion: annual spending, Texas

$652 billion : annual contribution to U.S. GDP
And that's really just a small snippet from the full report at:  http://americansforimmigrationreform.com/files/Impact_of_the_Undocumented_Workforce.pdf

The report's results are truly staggering, and it was performed by a collection of impartial economists known as the Perryman Group in Texas.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2010, 11:38:08 AM by Jude »

Offline Zakharra

Re: Seriously E? No "Arizona Anti-Immigrant Law" thread?
« Reply #218 on: August 09, 2010, 11:53:05 AM »
  I wasn't quoting FAIR. This is aadmitted by Mexico and borne out by other groups that have studied it. About 10% of Mexico's GDP was from illegals in the US, sending back money to Mexico. They don't want that flow stopped. Since the recession hit, that money flow has gone down. Which has hurt Mexico.

Ask yourself WHY doesn't Mexico want the border policy enforced or changed? WHY are they willing to spend money to help protect illegals isn the US? Because Mexico benefits from the illegals (about 10% of their population, Gods damned hypocrits)  being -here- and sending money back there. They are benefiting by illegals breaking the laws. Laws in their nation that they come down like a hammer of God to anyone that breaks them.

A 'Screw the US, give me the money!' attitude.

Offline Jude

Re: Seriously E? No "Arizona Anti-Immigrant Law" thread?
« Reply #219 on: August 09, 2010, 02:54:23 PM »
Please cite your resources for the 10% figure.

The FAIR thing was aimed at the other guy.

Offline Lyell

Re: Seriously E? No "Arizona Anti-Immigrant Law" thread?
« Reply #220 on: August 09, 2010, 04:00:13 PM »
Lyell, do me a favor and ask for clarification next time as opposed to assuming, because you just made an ass of yourself by jumping on her.

I didn't take that statement as an anti-capitalist dig, but a wry commentary on how reactionary politics can get.

Right, because everything is clear cut and dry on the internet. For what it's worth, I apologise to aurora for misinterpreting black letters on a blue backdrop that lack any emotional or tone context. Sorry.

Just for the record, FAIR is hardly a reliable resource.  They're true bigots in my opinion; they're not just against illegal immigration, they want to cut down on all immigration, even legal.

Anybody with a conservative agenda is going to be dismissed as a 'bunch of bigots' regardless of how accurate their information is or informed their opinions are.

Roughly the same information: http://usconservatives.about.com/od/williamweisscommentary/a/Illegal_Immigration_Amnesty.htm#

Oh wait, looky here, ProCon has several statements for and against amnesty! http://immigration.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=000771

But no, wait. Everyone on the Con (against) side is a conservative or republican, so they must all be bigots too.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Seriously E? No "Arizona Anti-Immigrant Law" thread?
« Reply #221 on: August 09, 2010, 04:06:52 PM »
Again with the sarcasm and the aggression. Take a step back, take a deep breath, and try to debate logically instead of emotionally. There is always at least a little bit of sarcasm and whatnot floating around here, but having it drip from each line is not acceptable.

A skilled writer can convey tone, and whether you mean it or not, yours is nasty. Please take a breather, and come back when you're ready to make reasoned, level posts that make a point without elbowing the other people in the thread in the eye.