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Author Topic: Anti-Abortion Legislation in Oklahoma  (Read 1337 times)

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Offline DarklingAliceTopic starter

Anti-Abortion Legislation in Oklahoma
« on: April 22, 2010, 01:12:17 AM »
This is just depressing. The Oklahoma senate has just passed multiple bills designed to essentially bully, humiliate, and guilt women who seeking perfectly legal, constitutionally protected abortions.

Both articles deal with the same thing, just wanted to link two because I found this so unbelievable when I read it that I needed to get a second source to confirm:

Article via AFP
Quote
The governor of Oklahoma was considering tough new abortion bills Tuesday that would allow doctors to withhold test results showing fetal defects and require women to answer intrusive questions.

Article via Truthout.org
Quote
One of the bills would force a woman to get an ultrasound at least one hour prior to an abortion and be shown the image and given a detailed explanation of it, even if she wishes otherwise. A vaginal probe would be used if it would provide a clearer image of the fetus, which no other state requires; three others do require ultrasounds, but none force the woman to listen to an explanation of it.

[...]

One last bill would require the woman to first answer a lengthy questionnaire and provide information such as her age, marital status, race, education and reason for seeking an abortion. The doctor would then report this information - without the patient's name attached, however - which would be compiled and put on a state web site and accessible only by certain government personnel.

The bill's sponsor has said this would provide valuable information on who seeks abortions and why, in addition to helping create programs aimed at preventing abortions. Opponents of the bill, however, argue that this represents an unconstitutional invasion of privacy.

They still need the governor to sign them to make them law, but the fact that they could pass the state senate (and 3 of them with a greater than 3 to 1 margin) makes me feel sorry for the citizens of Oklahoma.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Anti-Abortion Legislation in Oklahoma
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2010, 01:45:20 AM »
Wouldn't posting those results online violate doctor/patient confidentiality? (Referencing first link about the intrusive questions).

Offline DarklingAliceTopic starter

Re: Anti-Abortion Legislation in Oklahoma
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2010, 01:55:12 AM »
To my mind, yes. Although do note that the first link is a little too sensationalist about it, which is why I quoted the extract from the second link. The results will be posted online, but not just openly as the first article implies. They will be posted anonymously to a site accessible by the state government. Now this seems to me to still be an inexcusable violation of patient privacy.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Anti-Abortion Legislation in Oklahoma
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2010, 02:07:01 AM »
I'll have to check my Ethics book, but I think that the only way even that is allowed is as compiled data (i.e. blah-blah percent of patients are between 18 and 25, blah-blah percent are from 25 to 35, and so forth).

Offline DeviantMunster

Re: Anti-Abortion Legislation in Oklahoma
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2010, 04:00:13 AM »
Not sure what to think on the topic! Whether or not abortion is right or wrong, however, this does seem way too intrusive. And akin to emotional torture, which could fall under cruel and unusual punishment. But one would be surprised how many unconstitutional things get passed all the time~ I doubt the bill would hold if someone challenged it after it passed.

Offline Jude

Re: Anti-Abortion Legislation in Oklahoma
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2010, 07:29:19 AM »
I agree with the emotional torture argument for the first provision, that is completely out of line.

Wanting to gather statistics about who seeks abortion and why is somewhat reasonable and understandable, but doing it by force is not only unnecessary but certainly wrong.  This information can be obtained in other ways that are less egregious (such as, gasp, statistical surveys).

However, an increase in regulation when it comes to abortion wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing if it was done right.  I'm not sure if it would even be possible to pass the sort of legislation that would tighten abortion laws because of Roe v. Wade, but it's what the vast majority of the country wants.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Anti-Abortion Legislation in Oklahoma
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2010, 08:00:53 AM »
I have to say, that's the first time I've heard 57% (just under 3/5) described as a 'vast' majority.  I expect that term when looking at numbers like 80+% 


The July '09 data:

21% Legal under any circumstances
57% Legal under certain circumstances
18% Illegal under all circumstances
4% No opinion.

Offline GeekFury

Re: Anti-Abortion Legislation in Oklahoma
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2010, 08:27:58 AM »
Is this on religious grounds? If so is'nt it illegal for your imaginary friend in the sky* to influence policys in goverment or is that just here in the UK?




*Disclaimer: Nothing against those of fiath, I'm not religious.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Anti-Abortion Legislation in Oklahoma
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2010, 09:15:09 AM »
First point – Saying no offense to people of faith while also making a statement filled with contempt is an insult.  As this is not a religious debate on abortion but one regarding medical ethics, such contempt is seriously not called for nor really should ever be present in the politics and religion forum.

Second point – The online database is a breach of confidentiality according to the standards of HIPPA.  According to their regulation anyone not involved in direct patient care or needing information related to this case in order to perform billing or administration should not even be able to guess the person’s identity.  Considering the amount of information required, there does seem a likelihood of guessing the person’s identity.  Also if they are using this for research then they have to conform to research ethics which requires a statement of consent.

Third point – The ultrasound is an invasive procedure and so will require consent.  A patient does have the right to refuse the procedure and still seek an abortion.  The ultrasound is not required to perform the abortion under guidelines and so they will have a tough time making that sell before a court.  A patient can also request not to hear the information, which is well within their rights as the patient and simply sign the form stating they are aware of the risks.  The only doctors that would put a woman through that are those disagreeing with abortion and so are probably not running abortion clinics.

Fourth point – The results in the Gallup poll are misleading.  “Legal under circumstances” is a cop out for the person taking the survey.  They are allowed to find a comfortable middle which is where most people will put themselves when given the option.  That answer requires nothing of the survey taker because they give no specifics.  The range of “circumstances” is so vague as to be pointless.  Giving people an easy out of a difficult question skews the numbers and makes the poll meaningless.  Also the vast majority of the country wanted segregation of schools and public death sentences.  The founders of the United States did not intend for their government to be mob rule.

Offline GeekFury

Re: Anti-Abortion Legislation in Oklahoma
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2010, 09:21:00 AM »
It was'nt filled with contempt, there was no contempt behind it at all, sorry if you saw it that way but I do not harbour hate or contempt for anyone of faith, would be hypocritcal for me to do so as I have friends and family of faith.

Offline Paladin

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Re: Anti-Abortion Legislation in Oklahoma
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2010, 10:19:59 AM »
abortion should be Illegal except in certain circumstances.

1: Rape.
2: Situations where carrying the baby to full term would kill the mother.

Otherwise people should live with the bad decisions they make... Like having unprotected sex.

Offline GeekFury

Re: Anti-Abortion Legislation in Oklahoma
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2010, 10:25:33 AM »
Not all of it comes from unprotected sex, what if the condom breaks or the birth control pill fails? It happens. Besides if a woman decides he can't cpe of support a child or hell not want it, she should have all the right to abort it's her body, how would you feel if men could get pregnant and you were told 'Sorry, you decided to have unprotected sex now you have to squeeze a kid out.'?

Offline Paladin

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Re: Anti-Abortion Legislation in Oklahoma
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2010, 10:29:18 AM »
Not all of it comes from unprotected sex, what if the condom breaks or the birth control pill fails? It happens. Besides if a woman decides he can't cpe of support a child or hell not want it, she should have all the right to abort it's her body, how would you feel if men could get pregnant and you were told 'Sorry, you decided to have unprotected sex now you have to squeeze a kid out.'?

In situation 1 and 2, theres the Morning after pill. Most clinics here in the US offer it for free.
In situations 3 to 5, Then in that case she/he should carry it to term and goive it up for adoption. The Baby has a right to live just as much as the mother has a right to her body. Its a catch 22 situation.

NOTE: This is just my opinion, and has no real value in the real world.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 10:35:58 AM by Paladin »

Offline Trieste

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Re: Anti-Abortion Legislation in Oklahoma
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2010, 10:55:47 AM »
I'm pretty sure posting the results online violates both HIPPA and the Hippocratic Oath, which in its original form quite specifically bans doctors from speaking of the things docs learn inside a household they visit for care to others outside the household.

Also, I consider myself a pacifist, but if I were sitting in this situation...

Quote
One of the bills would force a woman to get an ultrasound at least one hour prior to an abortion and be shown the image and given a detailed explanation of it, even if she wishes otherwise. A vaginal probe would be used if it would provide a clearer image of the fetus [...]

... the ultrasound technician would be told in no uncertain terms that by continuing the litany they would be punched in the nose, and the doctor would be told that if he tried to put anything in my vaginal canal, he will get a swift kick to the nose like any other rapist. These measures are immoral and ridiculous.

Edited to correct spelling.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 10:58:56 AM by Trieste »

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Anti-Abortion Legislation in Oklahoma
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2010, 12:29:48 PM »
abortion should be Illegal except in certain circumstances.

1: Rape.
2: Situations where carrying the baby to full term would kill the mother.

Otherwise people should live with the bad decisions they make... Like having unprotected sex.

Actually the reasons should be ...

1. Rape
2. Incest
3. Life of the Mother

I would point out this is not the 17th century we have many options for birth control and its readily available both to men (condoms) and women (multiple options some over the counter and others not) so there is no excuse to get pregnant without one accepting the risks of such adult behaviour. That said the law of the land is its ok and these laws seem to be obsessive but they are not banning abortions and most of this would be states rights at regulating medical practice even if mean should not be considered unconstitutional.

But if they find a DNA test to test the embryo if the child is gay that is grounds for abortion now isn't it I find that offensive as a gay woman. And in India they did tests on the gender on a child and if a girl people were getting abortions for that since they favor boys. (Its officially illegal but come on it must still be going on.) Its maybe a necessary evil but recreational abortions for just fraking up is not for me a justified reason. You have hetro sex you just have that as a possible outcome so one must accept the risk while trying to minimize it with medical means of avoiding pregnancy. The child to me has the same liberty and rights to exist in the womb as the mother barring some extraordinary reason like those three listed above. Even then why not let the mother have the child and adopt the child out even if due to rape or incest?

Offline Trieste

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Re: Anti-Abortion Legislation in Oklahoma
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2010, 12:44:54 PM »
I believe the topic of the thread is not the legality or morality of abortion in general, but specific pieces of abortion-related legislation passed in Oklahoma. If you would like to debate abortion in general (again), then please do so in the thread already made for it.

Thanks. :)

Offline DarklingAliceTopic starter

Re: Anti-Abortion Legislation in Oklahoma
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2010, 01:37:55 PM »
In situation 1 and 2, theres the Morning after pill. Most clinics here in the US offer it for free.
In situations 3 to 5, Then in that case she/he should carry it to term and goive it up for adoption. The Baby has a right to live just as much as the mother has a right to her body. Its a catch 22 situation.

So what is this magic method for knowing your birth control pill fails the morning after?

And babies do have the right to live. Blastula and embryos? Not so much.

I would point out this is not the 17th century we have many options for birth control and its readily available both to men (condoms) and women (multiple options some over the counter and others not) so there is no excuse to get pregnant without one accepting the risks of such adult behaviour.

Yeah, no reason at all, except for you know, the government subsidized misinformation campaigns,  generally poor levels of education, and the interference of parents and religious institutions.