You are either not logged in or not registered with our community. Click here to register.
 
December 04, 2016, 10:24:55 AM

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Click here if you are having problems.
Default Wide Screen Beige Lilac Rainbow Black & Blue October Send us your theme!

Hark!  The Herald!
Holiday Issue 2016

Wiki Blogs Dicebot

Author Topic: Very controversial subject.  (Read 9225 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline kylie

  • Bratty Princess of Twisty, Creeping Secrets. Frilly | Fussy | Framed | Dreamy | Glam | Risky | Sporty | Rapt | Tease | Ironic | Shadowed | Struggling | Whispery | Bespelled
  • Liege
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2005
  • Location: Somewhere in the future.
  • Darkly sweet femme for rich & insidious scenarios.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: Very controversial subject.
« Reply #75 on: January 14, 2010, 04:17:40 PM »
Quote from: Lord Drake
If they put that on the INTERNET they are doing that to ME and under MY Church although (not so) probably unwittingly.  And so this makes ME respond.
          I suppose you will have a busy enterprise, blasting thousands of web pages very shortly.  How will you decide where to begin?  I guess you could blame the OP for bringing it up, but then the OP was asking specifically about JW.  So, that leaves you complaining at people in the thread who have simply mentioned parallels which do exist in and around Christianity.  Excuse me, but Pagans aren't making you read their pages -- whatever the quality -- any more than the Smithsonian Library is forcing you to load theirs.  If anything, it's more commonly likely that people might feel pressured to load up Christian pages when the Pledge of Allegiance, national currency, and funding legislation all refer preferentially to God and various churches. 

Quote
obviously middle ages ways were different from modern ones.
          People are not tortured and burned at the stake as often.  Some are still sentenced to jail through claims that whips and chains mean S&M -- which allegedly stands for "Satanism and Murder" -- with little other evidence than empty talk of violent fantasy (Laura Kipnis 1999, Bound and Gagged Duke UP).  That's fantasy such as is quite common on Elliquiy, actually -- but a mythos of serpent and sin has weight in our courts turning it into "evidence" of terrible crimes.  School teachers whose personal webpages (here we go again about the Net) show nudity and pagan ritual are fired.  People fear for their welfare and reputation instead of their bodies.  The mockery and demonization, intermittent persecution through rigging of government, and general discrimination against non-Christians do persist.  Particularly in the US of the contemporary Christian Right.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2010, 04:32:19 PM by kylie »

Offline Serephino

Re: Very controversial subject.
« Reply #76 on: January 14, 2010, 08:58:00 PM »
Actually, the author of the article is not a flamer.  As Kylie said, for one, I'm sure that article was meant for Pagan eyes.  Second, that attitude isn't uncommon among Pagans.

How do I explain this....  It's not uncommon for a Pagan to be anti-Christian.  I'm not saying it's a good thing, but it just is.  Often it's because the Pagan grew up as a Christian.  Something happened to make them leave the religion and they're bitter.  It also hurts to have friends that you've known for years turn their backs on you.  It's frustrating as hell to have to hide your religion from your family so you won't be disowned.  It's even worse when you're family does disown you.

As a Christian you can tell anyone you want.  The most you'll get is people telling you that they don't want to be converted.  You have no idea what it's like.  You don't have to hide.  My boyfriend made the mistake of telling his co workers, and now they keep trying get him to admit he's a Satanist.  The Medieval church did a very good job of demonizing us.  To be hounded by someone at your door adds insult to injury. 

Offline Lord Drake

Re: Very controversial subject.
« Reply #77 on: January 15, 2010, 02:51:46 AM »
Actually, the author of the article is not a flamer.  As Kylie said, for one, I'm sure that article was meant for Pagan eyes.  Second, that attitude isn't uncommon among Pagans.

It is on the net. You may write 'for Pagans only' on something on the net but this does not mean that it is not on the net. It can happen that someone could link it into a forum and ask an opinion about it, for example. Again... I am NOT saying that he should have NOT put it on the net. I only say that if he puts it there, it will eventually be read by others... and also tends to give wrong argumentations to other Pagan i would add.

How do I explain this....  It's not uncommon for a Pagan to be anti-Christian.  I'm not saying it's a good thing, but it just is.  Often it's because the Pagan grew up as a Christian.  Something happened to make them leave the religion and they're bitter.  It also hurts to have friends that you've known for years turn their backs on you.  It's frustrating as hell to have to hide your religion from your family so you won't be disowned.  It's even worse when you're family does disown you.

Believe it or not I completely understand that. Unfortunately, when you have an anti-something attitude... even if you feel yourself completely in the right, it is always good to stop and think a little. IF they are aware that by saying 'Christians' they encompass a MUCH bigger reality into which there is people that would NOT disown them, and IF they are aware that by bashing the bible they bash something that it is also sacred to different confessions than the one they have issues with, they can go on... obviously. What I am suspecting is that they are at times not aware of that or consider the thing moot.

As a Christian you can tell anyone you want.  The most you'll get is people telling you that they don't want to be converted.  You have no idea what it's like.  You don't have to hide.  My boyfriend made the mistake of telling his co workers, and now they keep trying get him to admit he's a Satanist.  The Medieval church did a very good job of demonizing us.  To be hounded by someone at your door adds insult to injury. 

Again, I know. And believe it or not I would like to offer my help in that. 'Medieval' Christians have their right place in the Middle Ages... not in the modern world. Obviously, bashing the Bible and trying to prove that my own faith is wrong is not the way I would use to help you... I fear you will have to cope with that. :P

Maybe if another Christian lends a bit of help, this will help set things in the right perspective. I am sure I can confutate every kind of biblical remark that your friends' coworker do to him. And you are free to tell them that there is at least a Christian in Italy, who thinks that they are definitely stupid and also are not doing a very good service to THEIR souls with that behaviour.

Offline Kotah

Re: Very controversial subject.
« Reply #78 on: January 15, 2010, 04:53:39 AM »
Something I don't understand... Why is it OK for Christians to put down whatever religion they see fit, however, if anyone of a different religion, even if it is a slight difference, says anything about Christianity... it's a great horror.

Offline Lord Drake

Re: Very controversial subject.
« Reply #79 on: January 15, 2010, 05:03:47 AM »
Something I don't understand... Why is it OK for Christians to put down whatever religion they see fit, however, if anyone of a different religion, even if it is a slight difference, says anything about Christianity... it's a great horror.

Something I don't understand is where have I said that the content of that article is a 'great horror'. I have said that it is uselessly aggressive and a bit stupid but I also say that about the 'bible-toting' aggressive proselytism.

^^

Offline Jude

Re: Very controversial subject.
« Reply #80 on: January 15, 2010, 05:27:27 AM »
Something I don't understand... Why is it OK for Christians to put down whatever religion they see fit, however, if anyone of a different religion, even if it is a slight difference, says anything about Christianity... it's a great horror.
Not all Christians feel that way, and moreover I notice a lot of people of alternate religions who believe equally egregious things.  If you're going to criticize other people's beliefs, you better be prepared to have your own scrutinized, it's only fair.

All too often posts about religion here eventually become criticisms and attacks unfairly aimed at Christianity, while people of other faiths and persuasions either ignore the evil their religions have done or the good Christianity has done.

Christianity certainly isn't a perfect religion, I honestly think that it's factually untrue and self-contradictory in many aspects, we all know that there have been many religious wars and atrocities perpetrated as well, but don't forget also that Christianity is also responsible for a great deal of good in the world.

Christian missionary efforts build schools and houses in third world countries, they run charitable institutions throughout the world, there's a reason religious terms are attached to the name of so many hospitals, Christian monks preserved a great deal of academic documents through the fall of the Roman Empire and the dark ages, and so many other things.  Sure you can cast doubt on many of those good deeds, but can't you argue shades of gray when it comes to any institution?

At least they're putting themselves out there and trying to do good in the world and having a measurable impact on people's lives.  The Church of All Words (the religious group that posted this article to begin with) has its own intiatives it attempts to make the world a better place, most of which seem completely worthless to me based on what I read, such as chaining themselves to a tree which was going to be cut down, but that's the beauty of being allowed to form your opinion about things such as these.

To view any one religion as perfect takes a narrow view and incredible amount of faith, but I think it takes even more bias and tunnel vision to view any theology as fundamentally worthless, oppressive, and inferior while singing the praises of your own religion (except in very very few circumstances, i.e. Scientology).  For as much as I dislike these CAW people based on what I've read about them, I don't think they're evil or dangerous; just wrong and a little silly.

Self-righteousness is disgusting no matter whose mouth it's coming out of, whether that person be an atheist, an agnostic, or a theist.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2010, 05:29:39 AM by Jude »

Offline Lord Drake

Re: Very controversial subject.
« Reply #81 on: January 15, 2010, 05:35:17 AM »
If you look at the article, it almost never speaks directly to Christians per se.  It mentions "Christendom" once, only to indicate that the Biblical story still has broader cultural weight.  Some of our responses here have pointed out that there are parallels with the JW involving evangelical Christians (it's very convenient to say just "Christians" for short sometimes) -- I think you're being overbroad in trying to shout those down in defensive terms of, Would you please stop saying anything to do with Christian about that.  No one has described your individual practices or said that is what they mean by Christian here -- at least, as far as I know.  Now, if you want to make an argument that the evangelicals are not Christians by your definition, that might be more relevant and do more for your defense of the term... 

Unfortunately the 'term' Christian is what is widely used in the WORLD to encompass a greater reality. If 'few pagans' use it whit a different meaning, and this gets taken the wrong way, the fault is theirs. And no, I'm sorry but it is not 'very convenient' to use a definition that encompasses people that does NOT do the practises you are having issues with (i.e. door-to-door proselytizing).

Yes, they do -- but not always an entirely separate reality.  Part of the threat/insult you may be sensing has to do with another fact.  If you are affiliated with or in support of large Christian churches, then the institutions .... "Well, I don't do that so I'm not implicated at all," is rather like an average middle class White person focusing on anything except the systemic benefits they gain from racial discrimination.  I just sense a lot of focus in the writing upon distancing oneself from an implied minority of "hotheads," in order to insist "but I'm part of the good bunch" rather than looking at all the empirical connections.


Actually if you have a minority of 'hotheads' amongst your lot, distancing yourself from them is the most sensate thing you can do. Also what you say is true but it has to do more with society... institutions always try to keep majorities appeased and this is something that you can see at many level. This is bad obviously and I try to do my best every day against it.

What I sense, is the desire to put me amongst the 'bad guys' simply out of the fact that I recognize myself in a definition (Christian) that actually is even wrongly used in this case.
 
...the people I more often see using both door to door and public (physical) space to proclaim vindictive messages today are more often members of conservative Biblical-oriented organizations.  You're worrying that a few radical Pagans somehow might do something which they generally haven't been.  And they haven't been, despite the fact that the Biblical side has been tossing the muck openly and with greater institutional support.  Where is the proof of this danger you speak of being likely to manifest itself?

Dangerous for them... not necessarily for society. Since I feel that the attackers (the Bible-oriented organizations) are in the wrong in my opinion, I do not care much what they get back. I only see that the reaction of those Pagans would alienate the sympathy of someone that could actually BE of great help, and those are the less fundamentalistic Christians for example.


          I suppose you will have a busy enterprise, blasting thousands of web pages very shortly.  How will you decide where to begin?  I guess you could blame the OP for bringing it up, but then the OP was asking specifically about JW.  So, that leaves you complaining at people in the thread who have simply mentioned parallels which do exist in and around Christianity.  Excuse me, but Pagans aren't making you read their pages -- whatever the quality -- any more than the Smithsonian Library is forcing you to load theirs.  If anything, it's more commonly likely that people might feel pressured to load up Christian pages when the Pledge of Allegiance, national currency, and funding legislation all refer preferentially to God and various churches. 

Well actually someone MADE me read that page and I commented after that.

AND if people is actually intentionally attacking ALL Christianity then I am ok.

I mean, I am not. But I will respond in tone, without problems. My problem is that I'm not so much convinced that this is being so intentional or that at least there is much awareness of what 'Christian' means world-wise.

...  The mockery and demonization, intermittent persecution through rigging of government, and general discrimination against non-Christians do persist.  Particularly in the US of the contemporary Christian Right.

Again, in the US..... ^^

Offline Lilias

Re: Very controversial subject.
« Reply #82 on: January 15, 2010, 05:44:13 AM »
'Christendom' as a geopolitical term denoting the Christian world (as opposed to Islamic or pagan countries) fell out of use around the 18th century. Today, when used at all, it denotes the Christian people worlwide, so yes, it does have to do with the faith and not with culture(s). If it were being used in its old capacity, someone would/should have said so. Expecting the modern reader to relate to that automatically is tantamount to misinformation.

Offline Jude

Re: Very controversial subject.
« Reply #83 on: January 15, 2010, 05:50:57 AM »
Unfortunately the 'term' Christian is what is widely used in the WORLD to encompass a greater reality. If 'few pagans' use it whit a different meaning, and this gets taken the wrong way, the fault is theirs. And no, I'm sorry but it is not 'very convenient' to use a definition that encompasses people that does NOT do the practises you are having issues with (i.e. door-to-door proselytizing).
You make it sound as if Christianity isn't essentially the same in most denominations, which simply isn't true.  Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons are really the only people under the Christian banner which differ vastly when it comes to fundamental beliefs.  Otherwise the differences between various sects are fairly minor and/or a matter of application and not dogma.
Actually if you have a minority of 'hotheads' amongst your lot, distancing yourself from them is the most sensate thing you can do. Also what you say is true but it has to do more with society... institutions always try to keep majorities appeased and this is something that you can see at many level. This is bad obviously and I try to do my best every day against it.
If you're blaming the institution for the way Christianity is given a superior status in many areas of the world, I don't think that's fair, especially in a democratic system.  In a Democratic Society Christian Lobbying is influence peddling is really directly responsible for the ways in which that family of religions is venerated above other religious identities.  It's very common to see religious individuals decrying times when Christianity isn't given special treatment, but you don't see them championing against what is essentially a violation of separation of church and state so long as it's in their favor.  Then there's religious transgressions against science, etc.  Christianity certainly does an awful lot to assert its influence for its own gain whenever it can.
What I sense, is the desire to put me amongst the 'bad guys' simply out of the fact that I recognize myself in a definition (Christian) that actually is even wrongly used in this case.
 
Dangerous for them... not necessarily for society. Since I feel that the attackers (the Bible-oriented organizations) are in the wrong in my opinion, I do not care much what they get back. I only see that the reaction of those Pagans would alienate the sympathy of someone that could actually BE of great help, and those are the less fundamentalistic Christians for example.
I agree with you here, but at the same time, being that you're "one of the good ones" it's your responsibility to handle the nuttier ones, like you've already said.  I think you won't find a whole lot of sympathy as a whole because a lot of people don't feel like moderate Christians are doing a good job of reigning in their evangelical brothers.
Well actually someone MADE me read that page and I commented after that.

AND if people is actually intentionally attacking ALL Christianity then I am ok.

I mean, I am not. But I will respond in tone, without problems. My problem is that I'm not so much convinced that this is being so intentional or that at least there is much awareness of what 'Christian' means world-wise.

Again, in the US..... ^^
The negative influence of Christianity and its lobbying to world governments for favor doesn't stop at the United States.  If someone has beliefs very similar to yours, unfortunately you're held responsible for the ideology.  So when the Pope says ridiculous things, like Condom usage increases the chance of getting AIDs to Africans in the middle of an AIDs epidemic, you're all held responsible for it unfairly.  It's important that other voices out there distance themselves from him and Catholicism by criticizing strongly what was said.  There's just not enough of that going on out there in the world.

Offline kylie

  • Bratty Princess of Twisty, Creeping Secrets. Frilly | Fussy | Framed | Dreamy | Glam | Risky | Sporty | Rapt | Tease | Ironic | Shadowed | Struggling | Whispery | Bespelled
  • Liege
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2005
  • Location: Somewhere in the future.
  • Darkly sweet femme for rich & insidious scenarios.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: Very controversial subject.
« Reply #84 on: January 15, 2010, 03:24:52 PM »
Quote from: Jude
All too often posts about religion here eventually become criticisms and attacks unfairly aimed at Christianity, while people of other faiths and persuasions either ignore the evil their religions have done or the good Christianity has done.
          The thread started with a critique much more particular than where most claims of unjust treatment of Christianity in general are trying to take it (which is practically nowhere, except cheerleading or evangelism).  As usual, some have misrepresented what issues were pointed out in the OP because they seem to feel that the mere term "Christianity" must be defended from any negative representation whatsoever.  There's some effort to turn a discussion about door-to-door sale of one's spiritual and moral beliefs into a laundry list of goods and bads about anything Christian.  It's a nice way to distract attention from the initial discussion by claiming abstract victimization.  This is just another form of whose victimization is worse.
 
          I sense that this sort of response is aiming to force an endless digression from the initial topic.  Like it or not, various groups of Christians and aspects of Christianity happen to share in the problem that the JW exemplified here.  You don't address the specific problem very well by saying it's an insult to even bring it up.  Nor by implying that "all the good things" Christians do either makes it somehow irrelevant, or perhaps requires them to do that too.  One could just as easily dismiss complaints about Blackwater shooting unarmed people by saying that's an insult to all the good Blackwater employees who built a few schools (or oil pipelines, or whatever).

Offline Jude

Re: Very controversial subject.
« Reply #85 on: January 15, 2010, 03:36:55 PM »
Nope, I'm all for criticism of Christianity or any other belief system.  I was just reacting to what I regularly see on religious threads, as people of other religious persuasions playing holier than thou.

Offline Kotah

Re: Very controversial subject.
« Reply #86 on: January 15, 2010, 04:05:51 PM »
1. If I wanted to throw down on Christianity, trust me I would. I didn't say a single thing to argue Christianity at all, really, just made an observation about every day life. Note, I didn't 'throw down' on Christianity.
2. I never accused anyone of getting holier then tho.
3. I never said Christians never did anything good.
4. In this thread, in so far, all I asked was one question, and posted a music video that I thought would lighten the mood a bit.
5. Why is it that you felt the need to go into a long rant over one question? I didn't attack all of Christianity. I just made a broad spectrum observation that didn't even apply to anyone in the thread. It was just a question, buddy. Let's chill out a little.

For one of the most popular religions in the world today, Christian's seem to get upset when anything at all is said about their religion. Case in point, I can't ask a question without some one getting up in the ropes telling me I'm self-righteous. Just because one Christian doesn't do it, doesn't mean that there isn't a significant number that do. If you watch any christian networking on TV you are sure to find a small rant about how prosecuted the Christians are. Pastors and ministers preach about in in church all the time. However, several of the same pastors and ministers are just as easily teaching how wrong other religions are. I'm sure it's something that happens in every religion. However, I have never seen it with the pure seemingly righteous outcry that the Christians have used.

Offline Jude

Re: Very controversial subject.
« Reply #87 on: January 15, 2010, 04:33:34 PM »
1. If I wanted to throw down on Christianity, trust me I would. I didn't say a single thing to argue Christianity at all, really, just made an observation about every day life. Note, I didn't 'throw down' on Christianity.
2. I never accused anyone of getting holier then tho.
3. I never said Christians never did anything good.
4. In this thread, in so far, all I asked was one question, and posted a music video that I thought would lighten the mood a bit.
5. Why is it that you felt the need to go into a long rant over one question? I didn't attack all of Christianity. I just made a broad spectrum observation that didn't even apply to anyone in the thread. It was just a question, buddy. Let's chill out a little.
Didn't mean anything personal by it, I actually just used your point as a springboard to discuss what I was thinking based on other people's comments.  I didn't mean it as a repudiation of what you said, it was just a good starting point, I'm sorry if you felt I was putting words in your mouth or etc.
For one of the most popular religions in the world today, Christian's seem to get upset when anything at all is said about their religion. Case in point, I can't ask a question without some one getting up in the ropes telling me I'm self-righteous. Just because one Christian doesn't do it, doesn't mean that there isn't a significant number that do. If you watch any christian networking on TV you are sure to find a small rant about how prosecuted the Christians are. Pastors and ministers preach about in in church all the time. However, several of the same pastors and ministers are just as easily teaching how wrong other religions are. I'm sure it's something that happens in every religion. However, I have never seen it with the pure seemingly righteous outcry that the Christians have used.
I know exactly what you're talking about.  Especially every Christmas when they start the whining over things as simple as stores saying Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas.  The War on Christmas coverage on the major news stations is especially disgusting.  Every Christmas, Bill O'Reilly's reporting makes me want to give him a knife to the spine (creatively speaking and worded for humor's sake, not to be intended seriously).  You'd think they'd be plenty happy to have a national Holiday on their big religious day, but that's apparently not enough for them.

I too am sick and tired of Christians crying persecution when in fact they support and demand a great deal of institutionalized persecution against people of other religious affiliations in the United States.

Especially egregious example:  recently I read that there are actually several U.S. states that have laws prohibiting people who do not believe in god from working in public office.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2010, 04:37:42 PM by Jude »

Offline Serephino

Re: Very controversial subject.
« Reply #88 on: January 15, 2010, 09:05:22 PM »
Believe it or not I completely understand that. Unfortunately, when you have an anti-something attitude... even if you feel yourself completely in the right, it is always good to stop and think a little. IF they are aware that by saying 'Christians' they encompass a MUCH bigger reality into which there is people that would NOT disown them, and IF they are aware that by bashing the bible they bash something that it is also sacred to different confessions than the one they have issues with, they can go on... obviously. What I am suspecting is that they are at times not aware of that or consider the thing moot.

Again, I know. And believe it or not I would like to offer my help in that. 'Medieval' Christians have their right place in the Middle Ages... not in the modern world. Obviously, bashing the Bible and trying to prove that my own faith is wrong is not the way I would use to help you... I fear you will have to cope with that. :P

Maybe if another Christian lends a bit of help, this will help set things in the right perspective. I am sure I can confutate every kind of biblical remark that your friends' coworker do to him. And you are free to tell them that there is at least a Christian in Italy, who thinks that they are definitely stupid and also are not doing a very good service to THEIR souls with that behaviour.

There's just one problem with that logic.  If your family has disowned you and your friends have turned your back on you, you are hurt and not exactly rational.  Emotion and logic don't go together well. 

In reality, the fundamental hard core asswipes are the problem here.  I find it encouraging that some are opened minded.  I went through a short 'divorce period' because I didn't have it all that bad.  My mom thinks I'm crazy, but that's nothing new.  My grandmother is accepting though.  In fact, she wanted to borrow one of our books so she could study it.  That was cool. 

I think there is always going to be some bitterness.  I will never forget one story in one of my books.  In Medieval England a village's crops failed, and a which was blamed.  the witch didn't step forward, so the entire town was executed.

It's things like that that tend to tug at one's heartstrings.  Lots of horrible things have been done to Pagans in the name of God.  Some aren't quite ready to forgive and forget yet. 

Also, that article was aimed at the door to door people.  After everything, it really ticks us off that they would dare come into our homes and tell us we must repent.  Even after all this time they still can't leave us alone.  Freedom of Religion means freedom of ALL religion, not just the one that's the most popular. 

Think of it this way.  Just as my right to swing my arm ends at your face, your right to preach to me ends at my doorstep.  My home is my property.  I'll live as I see fit.

There is one bright spot for you however.  Even though Pagans complain about people coming to their door, they would be quite willing to listen to you, who isn't so preachy.  Not all, but some.  So really, you shouldn't take too much offense to some of these comments because they really are only aimed at fundamentalists.  The trick is to be able to tell the difference. 

Offline kylie

  • Bratty Princess of Twisty, Creeping Secrets. Frilly | Fussy | Framed | Dreamy | Glam | Risky | Sporty | Rapt | Tease | Ironic | Shadowed | Struggling | Whispery | Bespelled
  • Liege
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2005
  • Location: Somewhere in the future.
  • Darkly sweet femme for rich & insidious scenarios.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: Very controversial subject.
« Reply #89 on: January 16, 2010, 12:03:33 AM »
Quote from: Jude
All too often posts about religion here eventually become criticisms and attacks unfairly aimed at Christianity, while people of other faiths and persuasions either ignore the evil their religions have done or the good Christianity has done.
          I've already said the bit about employing a notion of abstract "good" all over the place as a cheap excuse to avoid a particular issue.  As far as others leading events to unhappy outcomes (I'm feeling prickly about hearing "evil" following closely upon a specific mention of "sin")...  Ultimately, I don't think comparing victimizations will get us very far...  I can imagine some people are eager to make it that sort of "contest" since they can rely on the fact that Christianity has been given disproportionate standing in US public forums for a good long time... 

          Now, where the goal is actually to develop a balanced and well-informed public discussion about Pagan lore or related history...  It would make sense to first push for more public institutions to make room for non-Christian ideals (not just mainly Christian ones) all across the American public sector.  Encourage the fewer identified Pagans to actually come out so they can actually talk about deities in public, without sometimes fearing a police investigation or job loss.  Perhaps dedicate some funds so that more Pagans can maintain more bases which would be exempt from taxes and trespass.  Not to mimic the Christian towers, but since apparently that is what it takes to maintain a cozy, private ritual space without others preaching from the doorstep and sidewalk...   A few years of this, and then the general population would be in a more appropriate position to speak on a more even keel about the histories and mythologies of non-Christian ways.  Right now, many people are more aware of Christian ideals, and only partially aware of how much they've been channeled toward giving preferential attention to those and avoiding other possibilities.
 
          Finally, if you really want to be comparative...  There's also a little problem that "religion" is being spoken of more than spirituality, morality, or ritual, all of which make more sense for me to compare.  I could emphasize that I'm annoyed that some people are insinuating I'm defending other "religions," while the state would probably not recognize any of my own spiritual interests -- nor many small-group Pagan ceremonies -- as anything worthy of the name.  However, I won't draw that out further.  That would be just as diversionary as going on about some quasi-fundamentalist demand for total protection of the single word "Christian."

Offline Jude

Re: Very controversial subject.
« Reply #90 on: January 16, 2010, 02:44:27 AM »
Of course non-Christians have suffered more victimization than Christians have.  My point was merely that if you're going to criticize a religion, you in turn open criticism of your own religion, and you have to analyze both the good and the bad.  When it comes to judgment of a particular organization or individual, you don't ignore the good or the bad they've done.  I often see people stacking up Christianity's bad end to end in order to claim that it's a "worse" religion than other traditions, with statements like, "Well my religion has never been used to justify genocide."

Often the religions that Christianity is being compared to with such statements are too small and lack the influence to do much of anything.  My point ultimately is that Christianity is guilty of doing good deeds and bad deeds, and ultimately that, who is to say that when you add it all up Christianity is worse than any other religion?  You can still make the argument that it is, I just don't think that's a self-evident or extremely supported conclusion.

What're you basing the comment about job loss and police investigations on?  I've never seen any widespread evidence of workplace discrimination based on religious affiliation.  Even the particular law I spoke of earlier is only against atheists, Pagans can still serve because they do believe in Gods.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2010, 04:43:47 AM by Jude »

Offline kylie

  • Bratty Princess of Twisty, Creeping Secrets. Frilly | Fussy | Framed | Dreamy | Glam | Risky | Sporty | Rapt | Tease | Ironic | Shadowed | Struggling | Whispery | Bespelled
  • Liege
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2005
  • Location: Somewhere in the future.
  • Darkly sweet femme for rich & insidious scenarios.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: Very controversial subject.
« Reply #91 on: January 16, 2010, 05:34:49 AM »
Quote from: Jude
What're you basing the comment about job loss and police investigations on?
          Since you have already admitted that Pagans have smaller numbers and less public standing...  Consider the general disdain for "magic" and "myth" in American culture as often thought to be "opposed" to "God-fearing" virtue and "scientific rule"...   Also, if you but take into consideration the frequent Christian emphasis on trying to categorize people as redeemed or unrepentant...  It seems a bit surprising that you would be skeptical such things could exist.  Logic might readily have taken you at least that far.  Here are a few examples in the ballpark.  If you cared to search, I'm sure you could find more.

http://www.rapunzellstower.com/Pagan/discpaper.php
     " … 11th grade English teacher Sheri Eicher was suspended and ultimately forced to leave her position. On January 10, 2000, Mrs. Eicher was suspended indefinitely with pay because of the website of the coven she and her husband lead." (N. Carolina)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/pagan-teacher-to-be-disciplined-by-school-698116.html
      "The Pagan Federation's first national youth manager has been suspended from his job as a secondary school teacher."  (UK)

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/298869/being_pagan_in_the_south_different.html?cat=9
     "He is not Pagan. But, he is also not Christian. Some teenagers from his neighborhood spray-painted Christian religious slogans on his car. He called the police, who came out to investigate. When the police officers saw what had been done to his vehicle, they refused to do anything about it because they didn't feel it was a crime."  (Southern US)

http://plutonica.net/2008/04/10/news-discrimination-against-a-vancouver-pagan-involved-in-bdsm/
     [2008] "Hayes said [Officer] Barker wouldn’t give him many details, except to say the concern had to do with paganism, Wiccan magic as well as role-playing, master-slave sexual practices. He was told he posed 'an extreme risk of recruiting passengers/customers into my cult during my work hours if I were granted the chauffeur’s permit.'" (Canada)

http://wildhunt.org/blog/2008/07/satanic-panic-alive-and-well-in-north.html
     [2008] "two (or three) innocent people could be facing jail time and a lifetime on the sexual offender lists. Worse, by spinning tales of Satanism, and by the police releasing those details, we face a new wave of 'Satanic Panic' in the region." (N. Carolina)

http://wildhunt.org/blog/2008/02/mccollum-endemic-religious.html
     "Over more than a decade, I’ve had the opportunity to interact nationally with both administrators and inmates on religious accommodation issues. While practices differ from state to state, I found discrimination against minority faiths everywhere." [includes list of specific alleged mistreatments of Pagan prisoners]
« Last Edit: January 16, 2010, 05:37:04 AM by kylie »

Offline Jude

Re: Very controversial subject.
« Reply #92 on: January 16, 2010, 05:44:21 AM »
Wow, that's absolutely ridiculous and unfair, I wasn't aware, thanks for enlightening me to those circumstances.

Online HairyHeretic

  • Lei varai barbu - The true bearded one
  • Knight
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Dec 2006
  • Location: Ireland
  • Gender: Male
  • And the Scorpion said "Little frog .. I can swim."
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: Very controversial subject.
« Reply #93 on: January 16, 2010, 06:11:40 AM »
You might want to take a look at www.religioustolerance.org as well. I think it hasn't been updated in a while (at least the pagan section hasn't) but it does have some interesting stuff.

For example

   "I don't think witchcraft is a religion. I would hope the military officials would take a second look at the decision they made." G.W. Bush (R), as Governor of Texas. Interviewed on ABC's Good Morning America, 1999-JUN-24. He disapproved of Wiccan soldiers being given the same religious rights as others in the military.


Offline Jude

Re: Very controversial subject.
« Reply #94 on: January 16, 2010, 11:32:03 AM »
His daddy once said that Atheists shouldn't be considered citizens, then reinforced the comment when questioned later about it.  Never retracted it.

Offline Kotah

Re: Very controversial subject.
« Reply #95 on: January 16, 2010, 12:38:26 PM »
I'm going to avoid posting some of the stuff I have been told because I'm an atheist, I can deal with that. However, I am going to share what was recently said about my kid.

I took my -2 year old- to McDonald's to have lunch and play in the indoor play area. It just so happened a devout christian was there. Who slapped my daughter and told her not to touch her daughter becasue, well, my daughter wasn't baptized. Therefore, she was unclean.

Far be it, it isn't safe to slap a woman's child when the mother is nine months. I nailed the bitch, and the good people at McDonald's kicked her and her pure little girl right out. Of course, she stood outside, holding the little girl's hand, and screamed about how unfairly Christians were treated while her daughter cried.

I played in the ball pit with mine.

This was about a week and a half ago, 2 Wednesdays ago, right after I got out of the hospital. It might be why I am a little testy about Christians at the moment.

Offline Jude

Re: Very controversial subject.
« Reply #96 on: January 16, 2010, 12:54:10 PM »
She's lucky you didn't call the police, that's completely ridiculous.