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Author Topic: On Gender and Combat  (Read 6971 times)

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Offline IgnaddioTopic starter

Re: On Gender and Combat
« Reply #100 on: January 06, 2010, 07:02:15 AM »
To quote myself, the previously stated question involving the draft was:

If the U.S. military were to allow women into combat roles, should all women 18 to 25 then be subject to Selective Service obligation?

http://www.cdi.org/issues/women/combat.html


That is to say, if the US military were fully integrated, should American women be subject to the draft?

Offline Jude

Re: On Gender and Combat
« Reply #101 on: January 06, 2010, 07:08:52 AM »
That's what I was trying to ask too.  If you're going to give women equal rights in the military, you have to give them equal responsibility is my point.  Whether or not the draft is a likely to occur is beside the point.  If we continue the draft and we need it at some point, shouldn't women be drafted as well as men if they can serve as any role in the military?  It's a fairly simple question that should result in a simple "yes" for someone who believes in the sort of equality of the sexes being professed here, I think.

Offline Kotah

Re: On Gender and Combat
« Reply #102 on: January 06, 2010, 08:43:01 AM »
1. Yes.
2. It is not my opinion, I was just trying to better explain a point.
3. Obviously, woman would have to join the draft the same as men.
4. Many women already join the draft, like me, on their 18th birthday the same as any man.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 08:45:58 AM by Kotah Kringle »

Offline Trieste

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Re: On Gender and Combat
« Reply #103 on: January 06, 2010, 08:57:33 AM »
Gender equality has nothing to do with whether or not the draft should be allowed.  Maybe it's your opinion that the draft should not be done, that's fine, but it doesn't answer the fundamental challenge.  Being drafted is a responsibility whether or not you feel that it should exist.

*eyeroll* Way to selectively misinterpret my post, Jude.

Being drafted is not a responsibility any more than being openly flagwaving patriotic is a responsibility. It is a violation of the person's right not to pick up arms for whatever random cause is in vogue at the moment. If there were a war/invasion on US soil? Sure, why the hell not? But there isn't, and until/unless there is, the draft has no place in the US military. None. Why? See what Ket said above.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: On Gender and Combat
« Reply #104 on: January 06, 2010, 09:16:09 AM »
Here's the thing with the draft. It's sole purpose is to be able to form a large standing army of foot soldiers on a relatively quick basis.  Here's the thing with modern warfare. We don't use that large standing army of foot soldiers like we have in the past. Warfare has changed considerably since Vietnam, and is continuing to become less and less of two armies standing in front of each other shooting it out and more and more of the actual humans being in the rear while the technology works the front. I'm not saying there aren't front line soldiers, as there are, but the numbers are much lower than they have ever been.

If women aren't being allowed in direct front line combat roles, then why would they be included in the draft? If you want to argue for equality and equal responsibility's sake, then yes, women should be included in the draft. However, if there is nothing for them to do if they are drafted, then what is the point?

True equality is almost a utopian ideal. There will always be someone stronger, someone weaker, someone smarter, someone richer, someone poorer, etc.

That is not true a standing army needs ample support people from file clerks to mechanics to run. Every woman that can be drafted and trained in those roles frees up an able-bodied MAN for combat. I would even argue a disabled person like me could be drafted to fill a roll in an office here at home to free an abled bodied man to fight a war. And who says it will never haoppen if China and the US went to war a draft would be mandatory I would think. My father was a cold-war draftee and stayed in and he was trained as a medical orderly assisting the doctors and nurses. He was freeing up another person who might be more suitable to do another role.

Are you saying in WWII tthe service of women in uniform didn't benefit by helping the military alloocate men into fighting roles over doing more tasks like driving trucks, handling air traffick at home and doing the office work in the military? If so you just insulted the memory of several women in my family and their service in uniform to the defense of the Uniteed States.

Offline Kotah

Re: On Gender and Combat
« Reply #105 on: January 06, 2010, 10:58:25 AM »
Uhhh. let's take a breather and try to chill out a little please.

Offline Canuckian

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Re: On Gender and Combat
« Reply #106 on: January 06, 2010, 01:50:13 PM »
Uhhh. let's take a breather and try to chill out a little please.

You're absolutly right.  Everyone, stare at Ruby's avatar for a bit.  *Stares* Okay, Trie and Ket?  Care to volunetee- aiee!  *dodges a tomato* Okay, okay...

Offline Kane Gunlock

Re: On Gender and Combat
« Reply #107 on: January 06, 2010, 04:13:38 PM »
will I know this doesn't apply to humans as much in Nature it's some time the mother that's bigger and nastier than the male (I.E never get in the way of a mother eagle or T-Rex

Offline Ket

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Re: On Gender and Combat
« Reply #108 on: January 06, 2010, 06:29:00 PM »


Are you saying in WWII tthe service of women in uniform didn't benefit by helping the military alloocate men into fighting roles over doing more tasks like driving trucks, handling air traffick at home and doing the office work in the military? If so you just insulted the memory of several women in my family and their service in uniform to the defense of the Uniteed States.

No, I'm not saying their service was invaluable, because it was. And I'm not stating that any women who serves is invaluable (as that would be calling myself invaluable). What I am saying is, that the primary purpose of the draft, as it stands today, leaves out the necessity for woman to be included in it. If one day the military does become fully integrated, then yes, women should be in the draft.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: On Gender and Combat
« Reply #109 on: January 06, 2010, 07:03:08 PM »
I stated the reason a woman can take a place of a man in a role not in actual combat. And I will love to add many combat roles are not physical such as operating Patriot Missle Batteries, working on naval ships and doing most of the tasks away from a front line.

For every woman who is a clerk say at a base in the states is one man spot that could be an infantryman or tank operator.

If we say drafted 30% of soldiers being women that increases the combat forces by 30% its simple math. I'm not saying a draft should be 50/50 but some decent portion women. And most occupational specialties women can do around half of the services, if you put in 30% of the spots being women it would be very practical.


Offline Canuckian

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Re: On Gender and Combat
« Reply #110 on: January 07, 2010, 04:08:30 AM »
So, if I may stir the draft-question pot some more, I have a question about some of Ruby's statements.

Why are women not included in the draft?  Why is it only men who are subject to it?  As she pointed out, women could easily fill non-direct combat positions and free a man up to take said position, thereby increasing the overall strength of the military.  Why is that not done already?

Offline Kotah

Re: On Gender and Combat
« Reply #111 on: January 07, 2010, 04:53:00 AM »
It is, in some states.

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Re: On Gender and Combat
« Reply #112 on: January 07, 2010, 10:32:28 AM »
I don't know the facts behind it, but I would speculate that it's because proposing and/or supporting a draft is political suicide for many US politicians. We have not made use of the draft since Vietnam, when it was hugely unpopular and brought a lot of our men home sick, injured, scarred and broken. It really hasn't been updated since then, when the social climate dictated that men do the fighting and women make the babies. Updating the draft would, I would suspect, be seen as a sneaky precursor to using the draft...

If I were a politician, I wouldn't update it either.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: On Gender and Combat
« Reply #113 on: January 13, 2010, 03:05:22 PM »
This is the problem for me if we go to war like we do now we should have a national referendum, if there is a declaration of war then instate a draft and no exclusions for having money or going to school AND a war tax to pay for it on all citizens not going to war.

I for one am tired of politicians sending our soldiers off to war without giving a damn and using poor people who enlisted to make some money in most cases as cannon fodder. And everyone else getting off and living normal lives while we sacrifice our men and women. I think this would be good and we would only commit our forces to war if there was a real threat. I mean enemies ready to invade the continental US sort of threat. The President still will have the navy and marines for other actions if needed.

As for the Selective Service to not include women now violates the equal protection of people based on gender.

Offline Sure

Re: On Gender and Combat
« Reply #114 on: January 14, 2010, 12:01:03 PM »
Quote
As for the Selective Service to not include women now violates the equal protection of people based on gender.

Actually, it doesn't. It might not be right but it has been repeatedly ruled that such discrimination is legal which is why, for example, men have no right to dissociate themselves with a child (can be forced to pay child support regardless of whether they want or wanted the child, for example) while women do (Dubay v. Wells), or why only men are drafted (Rostker v. Goldberg).

Offline Kotah

Re: On Gender and Combat
« Reply #115 on: January 14, 2010, 04:12:10 PM »
Men can give up their legal rights to a child and not pay support. It's harder in some states then others, but it does happen. Most men, I've found, do not want to give up full rights. They just don't want to pay support, and that's where the problem lies. When faced with the real meaning of giving up full rights, men would rather pay the support then do it. The difference for a man and woman in that regards, the mom can struggle to get rights back, the father cannot.

War is profitable. Not to you, yourself, but to the big names that write the big checks come election time. I'm not a no war theorist. I think there are good reasons to go to war. I fear that America tends to go to war for the wrong reasons. I.e. people like to talk about Hitler and WW2, the problem is, we joined the war because japan bombed us. Not really because, hey, the Nazi army was killing thousands of people. Sure, we helped there too... however, we didn't go full force until we had some fires going. On the flip side, we charged right into Iraq with little proof other then a man on the tv telling us we were in danger.

Women aren't going to be added to the draft because no congressman is going to risk loosing all that support. Same reason women are going to be put on the front lines. Somewhere, in the us, it has been rationalized that a woman in a body bag means a lot more then a man in a body bag. If it was her choice to put herself in that war or not. Let's just face that fact. It's not going to happen no matter how much we all argue.

Offline IgnaddioTopic starter

Re: On Gender and Combat
« Reply #116 on: January 16, 2010, 10:18:26 PM »
I for one am tired of politicians sending our soldiers off to war without giving a damn and using poor people who enlisted to make some money in most cases as cannon fodder. And everyone else getting off and living normal lives while we sacrifice our men and women. I think this would be good and we would only commit our forces to war if there was a real threat. I mean enemies ready to invade the continental US sort of threat. The President still will have the navy and marines for other actions if needed.


A bit off topic, but are you saying that the only people that enlist are poor and cannon fodder? My Dad's a doctor, I didn't need to enlist to pay for my college, but I wanted to pay my own way though my life. I'm twenty three years old now and my parents have more or less stopped paying my way, and it's a fact I'm damn proud of. I wasn't poor when I joined the military, it was a choice I made based on the options I had. And it seemed pretty lucrative, honestly.

Offline Zeitgeist

Re: On Gender and Combat
« Reply #117 on: February 23, 2010, 11:55:10 PM »
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation-and-world/la-na-women-subs24-2010feb24,0,3205611.story

Not only are they opening the Silent Service to women, they are reevaluating over all the role of women in combat theaters, considering the roles they've already played in Iraq and Afghanistan.