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Author Topic: Tonight's Presidential Speech  (Read 9070 times)

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Offline Lilac

Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #75 on: May 17, 2006, 06:02:42 PM »
Don't tell me... you watch Fox News, right?  My statements are based on those I'm surrounded by.  I would LOVE to know why people supported him, but based on your statements talking is pointless, because you believe that the liberal media (as if that even EXISTS!) is out to get him.

Hence, again, I will agree to disagree, although I have a much harder time doing so with this one!

I tend to take a rather dim view of this kind of solution to an argument.  Clinton isn't innocent, though you'd have a hard time finding a president who was.  George Washington burned Indian villages, Thomas Jefferson owned slaves (and had a kid with one)...

Clinton and Gore made like they were selling us out to China.  That's not particularly forgivable in my book.  But then you have things attributed to him that he wasn't entirely responsible for (remember, it was the Republican congress that ultimately axed our military and cut our intelligence, Clinton didn't get to set the budget, only advise it).

Bush is the most fiscally liberal president in our nation's history, and now that we're at nearly thirty trillion dollars in total (federal, state, local, corporate and consumer) debt.  We went to Iraq on two serious stretchings of the truth and comparitively ignored North Korea.  Afghanistan needed another $37 billion (an eigth of Iraq's cost) to rebuild, but apparently more pressing matters were at hand, like the risk of Iraq moving to the Euro.

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Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #76 on: May 17, 2006, 06:29:44 PM »
No presidents are innocent, and compared to what has been made public knowledge, I shudder at some of the things that we'll never know about, that many have done. Usually done with 'the power' that they feel the American people have vested in them.

As for the media, it's all biased to some extent.

I'd be happy if there was simply a channel or paper that would give me:

'A happened at B at C time' with no commentary, opinion, diatribes, etc. to accompany it at all. However, Americans expect entertainment with their news, and would be unable to process unfiltered and unopinionated news.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #77 on: May 17, 2006, 09:01:19 PM »
 ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN and the major media news print are very liberal in their coverage.They consistantly have stories that bash the President far more than not.  Radio is mostly conservative, with some print media and Tv, FOX news, the same. The internet has both sides and all of the angles and twists in between.

Offline Purple

Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #78 on: May 17, 2006, 09:16:34 PM »
Don't tell me... you watch Fox News, right?  My statements are based on those I'm surrounded by.  I would LOVE to know why people supported him, but based on your statements talking is pointless, because you believe that the liberal media (as if that even EXISTS!) is out to get him.

Hence, again, I will agree to disagree, although I have a much harder time doing so with this one!

Um no, I actually don't.  The news I get is from scouring the internet from ALL major news sources but not Fox as well as a combination of some conservative sources.  I read Time and Newsweek as well.  If you do your research it's easy to determine what's really going on.  Particularly if you know some people in government and overseas, which I do.  I get more accurate news about what's happening in Iraq and how the Iraqi's feel about us than what we see on the news.  It is liberal, even most liberals will tell you that it's liberal.  And I've lost the site but several years ago journalist majors were polled to see why they wanted to become journalists and an overwhelming majority said that it was not to REPORT THE NEWS, but to CHANGE THE WORLD.  A journalist's job is to accurately report the news, not put their personal spin on it.

Not only does the liberal media exists, it is out to get him.  How else do you explain glossing over everything that liberals do for the most part and reporting OVER AND OVER on mistakes conservatives make whether on purpose or on accident.  Need I remind you that CBS I believe actually fabricated a story regarding President Bush's military service to 'get a story' and make him look bad?  Or maybe that was just some good-hearted person who honestly believed he was going to change the world by ridding us of President Bush?

Yes, our debt has skyrocketed.  I don't approve of that.  But the president does have to answer to the Congress, sometimes that means ridiculous things get added to bills in order to get the important stuff done so it's not all his fault though the lion's share of the blame does rest on his shoulders.  It's one of those things that I wish were better but realize that not everything can be accomplished in only eight years.  Each presidency is supposed to build upon the previous one, but unfortunately us mortal humans haven't yet figured out how to do that quite right yet.

Online Jefepato

Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #79 on: May 17, 2006, 09:24:29 PM »
Not only does the liberal media exists, it is out to get him.  How else do you explain glossing over everything that liberals do for the most part and reporting OVER AND OVER on mistakes conservatives make whether on purpose or on accident.  Need I remind you that CBS I believe actually fabricated a story regarding President Bush's military service to 'get a story' and make him look bad?  Or maybe that was just some good-hearted person who honestly believed he was going to change the world by ridding us of President Bush?

Although I do agree that the media tends to be liberally biased, "they're out to get him" applies for pretty much every president.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #80 on: May 17, 2006, 09:31:15 PM »
Although I do agree that the media tends to be liberally biased, "they're out to get him" applies for pretty much every president.

 Not quite. They glossed over alot of things Clinton did. Bush though, they hate him with a passion and are willing to out and out lie in any effort to get him removed from office. Them and the Democratic party.

Offline Purple

Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #81 on: May 17, 2006, 09:40:37 PM »
I think you're exactly right Zakharra, they certainly are and if anyone would like proof I will be more than happy to provide plenty of examples of things they've overlooked when it came to Clinton/Gore and things they've blown out of proportion for Bush/Cheney.  Of course, I would prefer to wait for several weeks (absessed tooth surgery is scheduled for Monday and I can barely think straight I'm in so much pain--the dreaded in-laws will be here all next week arriving just after said surgery--the following week I have a biopsy scheduled) if that's all right.

Offline Moondazed

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Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #82 on: May 17, 2006, 11:25:28 PM »
Wow, it's a serious test of my self-control to continue to agree to disagree :)

Offline Lilac

Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #83 on: May 17, 2006, 11:41:59 PM »
Not only does the liberal media exists, it is out to get him.  How else do you explain glossing over everything that liberals do for the most part and reporting OVER AND OVER on mistakes conservatives make whether on purpose or on accident.  Need I remind you that CBS I believe actually fabricated a story regarding President Bush's military service to 'get a story' and make him look bad?  Or maybe that was just some good-hearted person who honestly believed he was going to change the world by ridding us of President Bush?

The attacks on Bush only began this past year.  Where's the media blitz on the Diebold fiasco (their CEO admitted to "Being committed to delivering the country to the Republican party.")?  Or the erroneous entry of so many African Americans as felons in Florida?  Or "Free Speech Zones".

Free speech zones...  I had a friend who ended up in one of those.  Caged up like animals and not even allowed to go to the bathroom.

Or the rather broad application of the Patriot Act.

Quote
Yes, our debt has skyrocketed.  I don't approve of that.  But the president does have to answer to the Congress, sometimes that means ridiculous things get added to bills in order to get the important stuff done so it's not all his fault though the lion's share of the blame does rest on his shoulders.  It's one of those things that I wish were better but realize that not everything can be accomplished in only eight years.  Each presidency is supposed to build upon the previous one, but unfortunately us mortal humans haven't yet figured out how to do that quite right yet.

The thing is, until now, he didn't.  And Congress didn't have to answer to him.  No vetos, just a lot of new laws, and a lot of new bureaucracy, and very little to show for it - not even the head of the one man we wanted.

Remember the destruction of Baghdad's libraries and museums, when Rumsfeld claimed that no one could have predicted this?

Sixty years ago, when America landed in Normandy, the United States already had a special division of the military set up for the sole purpose of enforcing civil order.

Offline Purple

Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #84 on: May 17, 2006, 11:54:14 PM »
Because of WWII and then Vietnam and Korea our presidents since have had a very difficult time with war.  Mostly because of the protests and fallout and the fact that so many people are able to erroneously believe that peace can happen.  Anyway, I'm not saying President Bush is perfect.  I approve of many of his actions and disapprove of many others.  Just like as I've studied throughout history I've found myself feeling the exact same way about every other president we've ever had except for President Clinton.  Even FDR had his heart in the right place to my mind.  Our presidents are not infalliable.  They make mistakes.  They choose the wrong things.  Sometimes their decisions come back to bite us.  But that's the way our country is, and like the current man in office or not, that's what we have to deal with.  Really I just wish that everyone would not make snap judgments, would not believe everything they see or hear, would take everything with a grain of salt, and really just kind of chill out a bit.  These are important issues, yes.  Absolutely.  If I didn't believe that I wouldn't volunteer my time, spend my money, nor vote for my candidates and issues.  I still stand by my earlier statement that us arguing and calling names won't solve anything.  Stay calm and have a real discussion, get ideas and information out there.  Get educated.  Make informed decisions.  That's all I really care about.  Even if nobody believe me or agrees with my opinions regarding politics, all I really care about is the exchange of ideas in a disciplined, cordial manner.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #85 on: May 17, 2006, 11:55:17 PM »
 The attacks have been since he took office. They have just gotten far more vicious in the last year after he was re-elected. The Wellstone Memorial, the many attacks by the press against him and the convient memory loss when it came to what the Democratic party had done in Clinton's terms in office.

Offline Lilac

Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #86 on: May 18, 2006, 12:08:04 AM »
Not quite. They glossed over alot of things Clinton did. Bush though, they hate him with a passion and are willing to out and out lie in any effort to get him removed from office. Them and the Democratic party.

Somewhere about Jimmy Carter or Ronald Reagan's time I think they stopped caring about reporting on what should concern Americans (possibly selling secrets to China for election funds!?  $%$#ing ...  I would really like to know what stopped that investigation, it sure as hell wasn't just Clinton) to what they think is entertaining (Clinton gets a blowjob, Bush claims to catch a Perch twice the size of the current record holder...).  But, for that, even Clinton had attacks since he got into office.

Rumor has it the old boy's club covers up the excesses of the previous generation so the next generation will cover up theirs.  What we're seeing now is mostly due to the full breakdown of Bush's popularity, not so much because of the (slightly less these days) liberal bias of the media.

Quote
Because of WWII and then Vietnam and Korea our presidents since have had a very difficult time with war.  Mostly because of the protests and fallout and the fact that so many people are able to erroneously believe that peace can happen.  Anyway, I'm not saying President Bush is perfect.  I approve of many of his actions and disapprove of many others.  Just like as I've studied throughout history I've found myself feeling the exact same way about every other president we've ever had except for President Clinton.  Even FDR had his heart in the right place to my mind.  Our presidents are not infalliable.  They make mistakes.  They choose the wrong things.  Sometimes their decisions come back to bite us.  But that's the way our country is, and like the current man in office or not, that's what we have to deal with.  Really I just wish that everyone would not make snap judgments, would not believe everything they see or hear, would take everything with a grain of salt, and really just kind of chill out a bit.  These are important issues, yes.  Absolutely.  If I didn't believe that I wouldn't volunteer my time, spend my money, nor vote for my candidates and issues.  I still stand by my earlier statement that us arguing and calling names won't solve anything.  Stay calm and have a real discussion, get ideas and information out there.  Get educated.  Make informed decisions.  That's all I really care about.  Even if nobody believe me or agrees with my opinions regarding politics, all I really care about is the exchange of ideas in a disciplined, cordial manner.

Honestly, I think FDR's foresight probably rivalled Thomas Jefforson's.  Either that, or FDR listenned to people who had such foresight.  He made some mistakes, yes.  He was not perfect, yes.  He was a bit underhanded, yes.  But, during his tenure:

1: He destroyed any chance of fascism's rise in the United States for at least fifty years (certainly the jingoistic preaching and selling out to corporations is rather fascist looking but it seems to be dying now)
2: He goaded Japan into attacking the United States first, and Germany was stupid enough to follow through with declaring war.
3: He began preparations for America's military buildup for WWII before it was declared in Europe.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #87 on: May 18, 2006, 12:18:31 AM »
Somewhere about Jimmy Carter or Ronald Reagan's time I think they stopped caring about reporting on what should concern Americans (possibly selling secrets to China for election funds!?  $%$#ing ...  I would really like to know what stopped that investigation, it sure as hell wasn't just Clinton) to what they think is entertaining (Clinton gets a blowjob, Bush claims to catch a Perch twice the size of the current record holder...).  But, for that, even Clinton had attacks since he got into office.

Rumor has it the old boy's club covers up the excesses of the previous generation so the next generation will cover up theirs.  What we're seeing now is mostly due to the full breakdown of Bush's popularity, not so much because of the (slightly less these days) liberal bias of the media.

 Clinton was the media darling, so alot was ignored or glossed over, like the Monica thing, his lying about it to a Grand Jury and getting caught in perjury. The '98 Iraq incident where he made the same claims that Bush did about WMDs in Iraq. The media and Democratic party believed him, yet when Bush said the same thing, he was not believed.  Under Clinton the military was reduced in size and China was given the ability to put sattilites in orbit, a technology that can incidently be used to accurately target ICBMs. He also took campaign donations from a foreign nation, which is a illegal act.  Thruout all of this the press and Democratic party didn't have any problem with it. They applauded it in fact. Saying that it was a good thing that he did it.

Offline Lilac

Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #88 on: May 18, 2006, 12:28:47 AM »
Clinton was the media darling, so alot was ignored or glossed over, like the Monica thing, his lying about it to a Grand Jury and getting caught in perjury. The '98 Iraq incident where he made the same claims that Bush did about WMDs in Iraq. The media and Democratic party believed him, yet when Bush said the same thing, he was not believed.  Under Clinton the military was reduced in size and China was given the ability to put sattilites in orbit, a technology that can incidently be used to accurately target ICBMs. He also took campaign donations from a foreign nation, which is a illegal act.  Thruout all of this the press and Democratic party didn't have any problem with it. They applauded it in fact. Saying that it was a good thing that he did it.

The reason he got away with perjury was because the prosecution gave a definition of sexual relations that excluded oral sex from qualifiying.  They couldn't blame Clinton for their lawyer's idiocy, and that's why he got away with it.

To my knowledge the foreign donations for technology trade were only allegations.  For some reason nothing was heard from the investigations after they began.

Likewise, there still is no mainstream discussion of the suspected election tampering by Republicans, though a few minor stories have broken recently, the alleged actions of the Republicans aren't any better.

Regarding the military cuts, that is partly Congress' and the military's fault too.  Congress ultimately controls the budget, and they were Republican.  The Military-Industrial Complex was designed to be inneficient (it made for better profits that way) and under Clinton they paid the price of that.

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Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #89 on: May 18, 2006, 06:58:21 AM »
Quote
Somewhere about Jimmy Carter or Ronald Reagan's time I think they stopped caring about reporting on what should concern Americans (possibly selling secrets to China for election funds!?  $%$#ing ...  I would really like to know what stopped that investigation, it sure as hell wasn't just Clinton) to what they think is entertaining (Clinton gets a blowjob, Bush claims to catch a Perch twice the size of the current record holder...).  But, for that, even Clinton had attacks since he got into office.

I agree, and it's a trend that has been followed by turning the news into entertainment. It's glitzy, it's glossy, it's got lights and sounds. The media aren't merely content with  reporting the news anymore, and that goes for all the forms of media and all outlets. They all have a bias to some degree, in some direction.

It's more condescending than anything else these days. They tell you what they feel you should know, and tell you how you should take and interpret it. Americans have gotten complacent with that, and they expect it. Gone are the days of any sort of objective reporting, where you are left to digest the facts for yourself and make a judgement. I don't even want that. I just want to know what happened. I don't care what anyone thinks of it, or whether anyone does think anything about it.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #90 on: May 18, 2006, 08:37:21 AM »
 Charlie Tree and the buddist nun dinner, where Gore went to get more donations. The FEC (Federal Elections Commossion, I think it's called) elected to ginore that too. That was almost a news story before it was glossed over.

 The Democrates are more suspected in election fraud than the Republicans. Especially after the last 6 years. The number of times that there have been problems in Democratic areas is noticable. In 2000, the Democrates wanted the Electorial Collage removed because they lost because of fit. In '04, they wanted the Electorial Collage and didn't want the popular vote, because they lost the popular vote, which cost them the electorial collage. A good number of people were caught in voter fraud and in tampering with votes in an effort to swing the vote to Kerry. Some Dmeocrates even slashed the tires of Republican vans that were to be used to get people to the polls the day before the election. The Democrates even had thousands of lawyers ready at polling places, ready to sue if any Republican voter fraud was detected.

 There have been attempts to tighten up the election system with State ID cards and ikt's always Democrates and their allies that are blocking/trying to remove those cards from being used. Because it will make it harder for them to cheat at the polls.  In South Carolina, I think, the state is trying to give everyone a state ID card. On ly those with the ID cards will be allowed to vote.  The ACLU and AANRP are trying to block it. Because they say it's racist.

Offline Lilac

Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #91 on: May 18, 2006, 11:07:08 AM »
Charlie Tree and the buddist nun dinner, where Gore went to get more donations. The FEC (Federal Elections Commossion, I think it's called) elected to ginore that too. That was almost a news story before it was glossed over.

Same thing with Gore getting tens of thousands of negative votes from a county in Florida or the Republican senator who won despite his opponent leading him 74% in polls (utterly unprecidented).  Exit poll data shows that Bush should indeed have lost the popular vote against Kerry, even taking into account their traditional anti-republican skew.

Quote
The Democrates are more suspected in election fraud than the Republicans. Especially after the last 6 years. The number of times that there have been problems in Democratic areas is noticable. In 2000, the Democrates wanted the Electorial Collage removed because they lost because of fit. In '04, they wanted the Electorial Collage and didn't want the popular vote, because they lost the popular vote, which cost them the electorial collage. A good number of people were caught in voter fraud and in tampering with votes in an effort to swing the vote to Kerry. Some Dmeocrates even slashed the tires of Republican vans that were to be used to get people to the polls the day before the election. The Democrates even had thousands of lawyers ready at polling places, ready to sue if any Republican voter fraud was detected.

Both parties tend to, however, vote fraud was a lot easier this time.  The Leader of the RNC just got convicted for destroying the Democratic "Get out the vote" campaign by flooding their phone lines, and note all the little posters up in ghetto areas that said all fines and papers had to be in order in order to vote, including drug tests.

To say nothng of the amount of dead people who vote republican by absentee ballot.  Vote early vote often.

Quote
There have been attempts to tighten up the election system with State ID cards and ikt's always Democrates and their allies that are blocking/trying to remove those cards from being used. Because it will make it harder for them to cheat at the polls.  In South Carolina, I think, the state is trying to give everyone a state ID card. On ly those with the ID cards will be allowed to vote.  The ACLU and AANRP are trying to block it. Because they say it's racist.

I think this gets back to part of the point of this thread, they see illegal aliens and think 'voter pool'.  It's also important to point out, though, that we don't track hidden unemployment very well in this country, and there is a legitimate fear that those people are being lost.

Offline Purple

Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #92 on: May 18, 2006, 12:45:08 PM »
This can go on forever.  Both parties are guilty of illegal and immoral acts.  That's a no-brainer.  But bringing up instance after instance won't make anything any better.

Offline Lilac

Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #93 on: May 18, 2006, 01:07:28 PM »
This can go on forever.  Both parties are guilty of illegal and immoral acts.  That's a no-brainer.  But bringing up instance after instance won't make anything any better.

It has to stop somewhere.  If I could, I'd start my own damned party and be done with it.  But sites like "Billionaires for Bush or Gore" kind of drive that point home.

Offline Purple

Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #94 on: May 18, 2006, 05:29:23 PM »
Sounds good in theory, but eventually even that party would be corrupted, just like the others before it.  That's the problem with almost any institution, it's made up of people and people can be corrupted.  While I am a Republican, I do not vote a straight party ticket just to get Reps in office.  I vote the issues and my conscience based on careful research.  Putting the best candidate in office, even if sometimes neither one is that good, is one of the best ways to get some of these issues resolved.

Offline RogueJedi

Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #95 on: May 18, 2006, 08:53:21 PM »
It was George Washington who said that political parties are the end of democracy.  And he was right.

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Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #96 on: May 19, 2006, 07:11:29 AM »
Yes, in his parting address upon leaving office for the last time, he mentioned the 'evils of political parties' and was basically warning his two best friends, Hamilton and Jefferson, that they were heading down a dangerous road.

What foresight Washington had.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #97 on: May 19, 2006, 08:09:28 AM »
 Unfortunately, you can't get away from political parties. He probable meant what we are facing now. Parties that look to their own future and ignore the country's.

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Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #98 on: May 19, 2006, 08:11:33 AM »
Unfortunately, you can't get away from political parties. He probable meant what we are facing now. Parties that look to their own future and ignore the country's.

Actually from what I have understood, and what scholars have written and debated, he believed that each man running for office should do so independently of any organizational structure or affiliation, running on their merits and abilities.

Shocking I know, but I believe Washington believed that a politician should only be held accountable to those that elected him, not to any groups, interests and political parties.

Washington himself never endorsed a party.

Here's the relevant text from his farewell address:

'All obstructions to the execution of the Laws, all combinations and associations, under whatever plausible character, with the real design to direct, control, counteract, or awe the regular deliberation and action of the constituted authorities, are destructive of this fundamental principle, and of fatal tendency. They [political parties] serve to organize faction, to give it an artificial and extraordinary force; to put, in the place of the delegated will of the nation, the will of a party, often a small but artful and enterprising minority of the community; and, according to the alternate triumphs of different parties, to make the public administration the mirror of the ill-concerted and incongruous projects of faction, rather than the organ of consistent and wholesome plans digested by common counsels, and modified by mutual interests.

"However combinations or associations of the above description may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely, in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people, and to usurp for themselves the reins of government; destroying afterwards the very engines, which have lifted them to unjust dominion."

The man had tremendous foresight, and has probably turned in his grave millions of times.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2006, 08:15:00 AM by National Acrobat »

Offline Zakharra

Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #99 on: May 19, 2006, 08:22:30 AM »

Here's the relevant text from his farewell address:

'All obstructions to the execution of the Laws, all combinations and associations, under whatever plausible character, with the real design to direct, control, counteract, or awe the regular deliberation and action of the constituted authorities, are destructive of this fundamental principle, and of fatal tendency. They [political parties] serve to organize faction, to give it an artificial and extraordinary force; to put, in the place of the delegated will of the nation, the will of a party, often a small but artful and enterprising minority of the community; and, according to the alternate triumphs of different parties, to make the public administration the mirror of the ill-concerted and incongruous projects of faction, rather than the organ of consistent and wholesome plans digested by common counsels, and modified by mutual interests.

"However combinations or associations of the above description may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely, in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people, and to usurp for themselves the reins of government; destroying afterwards the very engines, which have lifted them to unjust dominion."

The man had tremendous foresight, and has probably turned in his grave millions of times.

 Very nice. The man was a visionary beyond his times. It'd be nice if that speech was read beforte the country again.