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Author Topic: Tonight's Presidential Speech  (Read 9068 times)

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Offline Zakharra

Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2006, 08:58:47 AM »
 Wind power can not give us enough for the needs of our nation. Solar can give some. Nuclear is the way to go, that and drilling for more oil in the Gulf and Alaska and California.

 If Mexico tries to protect it's 'citizens' on the north of the border, they are asking for a world of hurt. As for the oil, we can take over the Mexican oil rigs in the Gulf easily enough and jump pump the oil for us instead.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2006, 09:00:59 AM »
 Maybe so GC, but it is still a legitimate use of the military to protect the border. They can threaten the US, by their presense and actions. There are 11+ million of them. That means they could do alot of nasty things. Besides, military on the border would cut down the drug smuggling alot.  ;)

Offline RogueJedi

Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2006, 09:03:27 AM »
Not only that, but terrorists also know how porous the US-Mexican border is right now.  I would rather we have a military presence to stop them from getting in as well.  And if I hear another person singing the new national anthem in Spanish, I am going to scream!

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Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2006, 09:04:22 AM »
War with Mexico would never happen though. There might be an isolated incident or two on the border, but that's about it really.

My mom would love drilling in ANWAR, because as an Alaskan Citizen, that would increase her yearly checks from oil revenue.

Offline Max

Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2006, 09:14:55 AM »
Wind power can not give us enough for the needs of our nation. Solar can give some. Nuclear is the way to go, that and drilling for more oil in the Gulf and Alaska and California.

 If Mexico tries to protect it's 'citizens' on the north of the border, they are asking for a world of hurt. As for the oil, we can take over the Mexican oil rigs in the Gulf easily enough and jump pump the oil for us instead.

AM not saying wind power will supply all our needs.  But, every little bit helps.  And I do support drilling in ANWAR, and the Gulf, and California, and everywhere else.  And using coal, if it could be used clean enough.

But, we need to start to get away from oil.  The sooner, the better. 

Offline RogueJedi

Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2006, 09:17:49 AM »
I agree Max.  The main reason I support nuclear power is because it is clean, and most informed people support building nuclear reactors, even in their areas.  I mean, nuclear power plants are not like what they show on the Simpsons for cryin' out loud.

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Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2006, 09:21:41 AM »
True, and if properly maintained and cared for, with up to date technology and procedures, nothing is safer than Nuclear Power.

Clean Coal is a good alternative as well. That would certainly help Virginia's economy.

Offline GoldenChild

Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2006, 09:23:10 AM »
AM not saying wind power will supply all our needs.  But, every little bit helps.  And I do support drilling in ANWAR, and the Gulf, and California, and everywhere else.  And using coal, if it could be used clean enough.

But, we need to start to get away from oil.  The sooner, the better. 

The energy crisis is a problem on itself.

On one hand you have the oil which will not be around forever (not to mention that it messes up the world rather bad too, pollution and so on). Coal isn't much better in that regard.

On the other hand you got nuclear power, it works and it is clean, up to the day where you either have an accident and you spread radioactive radiation all over or until you have to decide where to put the radioactive waste for storage the next 250.000 years. Personally I prefer nuclear power as I happen to like our climate we have.

Offline Max

Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #33 on: May 15, 2006, 09:33:12 AM »
Does anyone know anything about OTC (Ocean Thermal Current) technology.  Read about it the book "A Step Further Out," by JE Pournelle, but my copy fell apart years ago.  Something about drawing colder seawater water up thru a pipe, to turn a turbine to generate power.  Does anyone know if it has been tried on any scale.  Think I heard something on TV about it, but not sure if it was successful or not.  It might have been something else entirely.

Offline Moondazed

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Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #34 on: May 15, 2006, 11:52:52 AM »
I support nuclear energy.  However, the militant environmentalists will never allow that, or anything else.

I don't consider myself a "militant environmentalist", but I do think that any form of energy should undergo a lifecycle analysis, and nuclear fails that miserably.  It's interesting to me that people don't pay more attention to using less energy, instead of only seeing one side of the coin and pushing generating more and more energy.

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Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #35 on: May 15, 2006, 03:01:26 PM »
I think the only way the average person in an industrial nation will actually think about using less energy is if it starts to get either way expensive, or starts to really get scarce.

It usually takes that to break people of the habits they have. People love their cars, electronic gadgets and anything that makes life more comfortable, and a lot of those things take energy.

Virginia is set to enter Deregulation of the Electricity industry here in a couple of years. That could speed us right along that path...

Offline Moondazed

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Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #36 on: May 15, 2006, 03:29:06 PM »
Which is why I'm happy to see the price of gas go up.  I pay it right along with everyone else, and I do so happily and willingly.  I wish we were paying the real price, which would exceed $5 a gallon.

Offline GoldenChild

Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #37 on: May 15, 2006, 04:01:37 PM »
In Sweden the gas prise is about $6.50 per gallon already so I hope it won't rise any further.

Offline Jefepato

Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #38 on: May 15, 2006, 05:06:25 PM »
If memory serves, money wired from the U.S. is currently the second largest "industry" (after oil, of course) in Mexico.

I'm starting to think war, or at least the threat of war (and the willingness to follow through), is the only answer.

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Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #39 on: May 15, 2006, 08:42:35 PM »
Well, I was a bit underwhelmed.

I wonder, when the president says they can go to the 'back of the line', does he mean the illegals can go home, and wait behind those who have filled out their paperwork and are waiting to see if they can get into the country, or do they go to the line inside the country.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2006, 09:28:26 PM »
I don't consider myself a "militant environmentalist", but I do think that any form of energy should undergo a lifecycle analysis, and nuclear fails that miserably.  It's interesting to me that people don't pay more attention to using less energy, instead of only seeing one side of the coin and pushing generating more and more energy.
 
 Lifestyle analysis? We do not live in the 1800's, which is where we would be if we didn't have the power sources we have now. Everything we buy that makes our society is powered by oil or electricity. Nuclear is a cheap and good long term way of getting power. The spent fuel can be rendered solid, placed in heavily shielded storage places and in time, shot into the sun. France uses alot of nuclear power.

 
Which is why I'm happy to see the price of gas go up. I pay it right along with everyone else, and I do so happily and willingly. I wish we were paying the real price, which would exceed $5 a gallon.

 Oli is the engine of the industrial world. It is used for gasoline, diesel, kerosine, plastics and many other uses. Unless there is another cheap source of enegy that is comparable to oil, then there will be no reason to go and look for another source. In Venezuala, the gas is $.27 cents per gallon. It's not much more expensive in Saudia Arabia. The price that is always quoted in the news is not the price the oil companies pay for it. The prices quoted are the futures market. Wether it's 1-8 months down the road, not the current prices.  I have heard economic analytsis say that the current price per gallon is not correct. That for it to be that price, the cost per barrel would have to be $90+. Not the $70ish it's been.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #41 on: May 15, 2006, 09:29:57 PM »
If memory serves, money wired from the U.S. is currently the second largest "industry" (after oil, of course) in Mexico.

I'm starting to think war, or at least the threat of war (and the willingness to follow through), is the only answer.

 You are correct. The money that is sent back to Mexico is the 2nd highest, after oil,  money making industry for the Mexican government.

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Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #42 on: May 16, 2006, 12:44:47 AM »
 
 Lifestyle analysis? We do not live in the 1800's, which is where we would be if we didn't have the power sources we have now. Everything we buy that makes our society is powered by oil or electricity. Nuclear is a cheap and good long term way of getting power. The spent fuel can be rendered solid, placed in heavily shielded storage places and in time, shot into the sun. France uses alot of nuclear power.

Lifecycle analysis, as in assessing all of the consequences of the entire lifecycle of an energy source.  Nuclear is not the panacea some consider it to be if you consider that.  Obviously I understand that it isn't the 1800's, I'll assume that you don't mean to be condescending.

Shot into the sun?!  Why not spend some money finding a better way with less long term affects.


 Oli is the engine of the industrial world. It is used for gasoline, diesel, kerosine, plastics and many other uses. Unless there is another cheap source of enegy that is comparable to oil, then there will be no reason to go and look for another source. In Venezuala, the gas is $.27 cents per gallon. It's not much more expensive in Saudia Arabia. The price that is always quoted in the news is not the price the oil companies pay for it. The prices quoted are the futures market. Wether it's 1-8 months down the road, not the current prices.  I have heard economic analytsis say that the current price per gallon is not correct. That for it to be that price, the cost per barrel would have to be $90+. Not the $70ish it's been.

And yet it is exhaustible.  Plastic can be made from other sources, believe it or not.  Just because something is the status quo doesn't mean it's the way things have to stay.  Of course, it's easier to just keep buying gas hogs and not think about it, our generation won't have to deal with the fallout.  And the day I believe an economic analyst will be the day pigs fly :)

Offline Ajoxer

Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #43 on: May 16, 2006, 05:17:48 AM »
Actually, there's an incredibly large amount of empty, endless space out there. Once given a more effective way to leave the earth- One of the interesting ideas I've seen is a so-called " Space-Elevator"- The initial cost would be fairly high, but afterwards, it's like a regular elevator, you just use a counterbalance, say, a big iron-rich asteroid, bring that down, while the huge damn load of atomic waste is brought up, then use a mass driver to send it into the sun. As for illegal immigration, I've always been against it, but I think it would be hypocritical for anyone to be against legal immigration.

Oil is not going to last forever, and depressingly, most forms of " safe" energy, IE Wind, and Solar, are not nearly efficient enough yet to be able to power countries.

But then, we never know what the next new energy source might be...

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Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #44 on: May 16, 2006, 08:26:56 AM »
Quote
As for illegal immigration, I've always been against it, but I think it would be hypocritical for anyone to be against legal immigration.

I certainly agree with this, given as how the nation is built on the backs of immigrants originally. I don't know anyone who is against Legal immigration. I know plenty of folks who simply want the laws of the land on the books upheld, and several people who immigrated legally who want illegals to have to go through the process they did.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #45 on: May 16, 2006, 08:28:58 AM »
 
Quote
Lifecycle

 Oops, my bad. I misspelt it.  :-[  I'm not sure what you mean then about lifecycle. There is no resource that is limitless ornonbothersome in some way. Solar panels take up space, wind mills take up space and kill alot of birds. Coal and nat gas give off gases. Hydroelectric blocks waterways and nuclear has spent fuel. Everything has problems, but the problems are surmountable.

 Nuclear is the best for us at this time, since it is easy and cheap.
Quote
Shot into the sun?!  Why not spend some money finding a better way with less long term affects.
  I'm not sure what's wrong with that? The sun is the perfect incinerator. It would burn the fuel rods into plasma and disperse it into the universe.

 A space elevator would be the perfect way to go into space, but the means to build one is beyond our technological ability at this time, and is likely to stay that way. So it'll be rockets as the only way for us to get off of the planet.  Some things could be sent into space on a large massdriver(railgun), like foods, water and solid things that can take a shock. Soft and fragile things like humans will have to use rockets.   

 Ajoxer is right, there is  boundless energy in space and a whole solar system's worth of resources to find and use.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #46 on: May 16, 2006, 08:30:28 AM »
 Yup. Illegal immigration ? Boo! Hiss!   Legal immigration? Yay! I have never had a problem with legal immigration. It's the illegal that annoys me.

Offline Hunter

Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #47 on: May 16, 2006, 06:33:55 PM »
Anyone here think it will have any substance? Anything new to tell us? Polls show that he is way off base with the average American concerning what they want done about immigration, and that the conservative base is starting to abandon him. Do you think that he will reverse some of his course, or attempt to persuade Americans that what he wants is 'right?'

I've stopped paying much attention to what the politicians say.  They don't listen to the people they work for (the voters) and are going to do what they want anyways no matter what we think.

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Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #48 on: May 16, 2006, 06:43:57 PM »
  Oops, my bad. I misspelt it.  :-[  I'm not sure what you mean then about lifecycle. There is no resource that is limitless or non-bothersome in some way. Solar panels take up space, wind mills take up space and kill alot of birds. Coal and nat gas give off gases. Hydroelectric blocks waterways and nuclear has spent fuel. Everything has problems, but the problems are surmountable.

I'll take "takes up space" over "hangs around for hundreds of years" any day, thank you.  I guess "surmountable" is subjective, because I don't see nuclear waste as surmountable.

Nuclear is the best for us at this time, since it is easy and cheap.   I'm not sure what's wrong with that? The sun is the perfect incinerator. It would burn the fuel rods into plasma and disperse it into the universe.

Why?  Easy and Cheap?  Sorry, I don't see something so potentially detrimental as easy or cheap.  What if we spent the time and energy exploring new energy sources?  As long as automakers keep a lot of the new technologies patented so that they can't be researched further we'll never know... unless we reward people who are thinking outside of the box.  Nuclear energy was discovered in a time when that type of thinking was rewarded and funded.

A space elevator would be the perfect way to go into space, but the means to build one is beyond our technological ability at this time, and is likely to stay that way. So it'll be rockets as the only way for us to get off of the planet.  Some things could be sent into space on a large massdriver(railgun), like foods, water and solid things that can take a shock. Soft and fragile things like humans will have to use rockets.   

 Ajoxer is right, there is  boundless energy in space and a whole solar system's worth of resources to find and use.

There are energy sources all around us, it's a matter of extracting the energy.  Such as ethanol... the only real discussion about actually pursuing it has been in reference to corn ethanol instead of sugarbeet ethanol, which is 4 times more efficient.  Why?  The corn lobbyists.  Man, our system is screwed up *sigh*

Offline Zakharra

Re: Tonight's Presidential Speech
« Reply #49 on: May 16, 2006, 10:10:02 PM »
I'll take "takes up space" over "hangs around for hundreds of years" any day, thank you.  I guess "surmountable" is subjective, because I don't see nuclear waste as surmountable.

 The power produced is cheap and easy to make.  The reason windmills are not good is that they cannot produce enough power needed for industrial purposes. Nor enough for purely residentual purposes.  Also the peopel that are pushing them do not want them where they can see them There is a windmill project in Massachutsets, Martha's Vineyard, there the Kennedy's and other wealthy influencial people live. That place is perfect for an offshore windmill farm. Yet those same people that want us to use that sort of power are trying very hard to kill the windmill farm. Because it will ruin their view of the ocean. They are for it as long as it is not in their backyard. They have different rules for themselves. The windmill farms that do exist are also responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of birds.

Why?  Easy and Cheap?  Sorry, I don't see something so potentially detrimental as easy or cheap.  What if we spent the time and energy exploring new energy sources?  As long as automakers keep a lot of the new technologies patented so that they can't be researched further we'll never know... unless we reward people who are thinking outside of the box.  Nuclear energy was discovered in a time when that type of thinking was rewarded and funded.


 The effects of n uclear power, spent fuel rods, can be dealt with. Launbching it into orbit, then into the sun is the most efficient way of getting rid of it. Automakers can only keep some technologies 'bottled' up.  For what it's used for, nothing can beat nuclear for cleanliness and safety. The US has not had a nuclear accident in decades and nothing on the scale of Chernoble.

 

There are energy sources all around us, it's a matter of extracting the energy.  Such as ethanol... the only real discussion about actually pursuing it has been in reference to corn ethanol instead of sugarbeet ethanol, which is 4 times more efficient.  Why?  The corn lobbyists.  Man, our system is screwed up *sigh*

 Wrong. The continental US is not suited for growing sugercane crops. The only places that could possible are Hawaii or maybe Florida. If a hurricane didn't wander thru the state and wipe it all out. Besides ethenol, there is hydrogen. That is the cleanbest burning fuel, but it requires alot of electricity to seperate it out from oxygen and into liguid form. Sugerbeets migh tbe possible. It depends. Aprt of the problem with ethenol is that it binds with water and tends to seperate out and gel in colder temperatures.