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Author Topic: I am ashamed...  (Read 2842 times)

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Offline WarDragonTopic starter

I am ashamed...
« on: April 24, 2006, 12:25:16 PM »
 ...to be a citizen of the United States after reading this. The gist of it is, over a million people were killed because of their ethnicity
in the last days of the Ottoman Empire, and the USA, Turkey, and Israel all refuse to acknowledge this fact, in out case because of politics and oil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

Spreading the word.

Offline Ariabella

Re: I am ashamed...
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2006, 12:30:39 PM »
I totally agree. But let's look at the US's history...we originally came over from Europe and took the country from the Native Americans and slaughtered so many of them "as the savages they are" or forced them onto reservations. I have said for years that this shamed me as well.

I will never understand genocide and well, the oil is greed of our most powerful people. I wonder how much of this was made public back then.

Offline Vandren

Re: I am ashamed...
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2006, 12:40:28 PM »
Peter Balakian wrote a good story/chapter about this in his book Black Dog of Fate.  Actually just discussed this issue with a group of students after they'd read Orwell's 1984 and we were talking about Winston's job (erasing/rewriting history).

Add the U.S. 1920s/30s Eugenic Program, including its forced sterilization of lower class and minority citizens to the list.

Offline Jefepato

Re: I am ashamed...
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2006, 02:13:02 PM »
There's some horrifying stuff in America's history, no doubt, but I wouldn't add this to the list.  Not officially using the word "genocide" to describe the situation is a diplomatic quibble, not an endorsement of mass murder.  The government isn't denying it happened or even saying it's okay -- they can't cut diplomatic ties with every ally or trading partner that has an atrocity in their past.

And I, for one, refuse to feel shame for anyone else's actions...much less my government's choice of words in referring to someone else's actions that happened on another continent before I was born.

Offline Vandren

Re: I am ashamed...
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2006, 03:17:17 PM »
The government isn't denying it happened or even saying it's okay -- they can't cut diplomatic ties with every ally or trading partner that has an atrocity in their past.

Actually, they've only started admitting knowledge of it in the last couple years.  For decades they quietly swept it under the rug.

Quote
And I, for one, refuse to feel shame for anyone else's actions...much less my government's

I'd agree, except that the people in the government represent us, at least in theory.  They definitely represent a country (whatever nation) to the other nations of the world, as the most visible representatives of that country.  Moreover, supposedly we put them in office to represent our interests and whatnot.  Yes, this might sound idealistic and naive, but I don't think it is, unless Jefferson, Washington, etc. were naive.  :)

Offline Jefepato

Re: I am ashamed...
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2006, 04:58:28 PM »
Actually, they've only started admitting knowledge of it in the last couple years.  For decades they quietly swept it under the rug.

I didn't catch that from the Wikipedia article, but then, that article needs serious fixing anyway (and I'd have a better chance of winning the lottery than of finding an unbiased source on this topic, I suspect).

In theory, the government represents us.  In practice, they don't represent me at all, even if I study every candidate and vote in every election like a good civic-conscious citizen, nor do I have any reliable way of knowing or predicting what a given candidate will do once in office.  And even if there was a political party that actually represented my views, I probably wouldn't be able to rely on them once elected.  That's the way it goes.

The world might view the government as our representatives, and they're probably the best we can do, but we as individuals are not the tiniest bit responsible for what they do.

Offline Hunter

Re: I am ashamed...
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2006, 05:26:53 PM »
What you are most likely dealing with is during the period around the beginning of the twentieth/end of the nineteen century when science and evolution was used to justify racism and bigotry.  *remembers those classes with distain*

Offline Vandren

Re: I am ashamed...
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2006, 06:39:55 PM »
I didn't catch that from the Wikipedia article, but then, that article needs serious fixing anyway (and I'd have a better chance of winning the lottery than of finding an unbiased source on this topic, I suspect).

Having not read the Wikipedia article (thanks to a deeply ingrained distrust of Wikipedia in all its forms), I don't know it that's there or not.  But, thanks to prior knowledge of the subject, I know that it's only just begun to come to the light of "public" knowledge within the last five or six years.  Personally, I doubt the U.S. government will ever admit that they knew about it.  Afterall, our government knew what Hitler was doing almost since the beginning, and said nothing.  In fact, they started quietly doing the same damn thing over here.

Offline WarDragonTopic starter

Re: I am ashamed...
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2006, 07:44:18 PM »
Hell, Hitler was inspired to carry out the Holocaust by the way America was treating those of African descent.

Offline Ajoxer

Re: I am ashamed...
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2006, 07:52:38 PM »
That'd depress me so deeply if it was true. But let's face it, America is the abandoned orphan of the countries, we're like Leatherface. We were the people who couldn't be accepted in any other country, who, for whatever reason, were not able to live well in other countries, so we came here, and slaughtered a few million people to make way for ourselves, and found that suddenly, we were the big kids on the block. We went from a bunch of religious nuts and political prisoners, all the people who couldn't fit in, and we melted together. And now, after just over 200 years of existence, we find ourselves on top of the world, a position most countries existed for half a millenia or more before exploring.

We're the bastard child of the world, and we just found the family gun. * shrug.* C'est la vie.

Offline Max

Re: I am ashamed...
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2006, 07:56:28 PM »
Hell, Hitler was inspired to carry out the Holocaust by the way America was treating those of African descent.

Are you saying that Hitler would not have carried out the Holocaust if America had treated its minorites better?  I don't think so.

And is the US responsible for Stalin's purges?  Cambodia?  Rwanda?  Sudan?  How about the civil wars in the Congo?  There is evil in the world, that has nothing to do with us.  

Offline Swedish Steel

Re: I am ashamed...
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2006, 07:58:51 PM »
Hehe, some of it has something to do with you, Chile and Nicaragua to name a few.

Offline Ajoxer

Re: I am ashamed...
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2006, 08:04:56 PM »
Ah... S.S., it's fair enough to point those sort of things, but the hehe is usually considered inflammatory. And I agree that there's plenty of evil in the world that has nothing to do us- Frankly, I think that without the US, just as many horrors would have still existed. People still kill eachother over senseless things, for senseless reasons, in senseless ways. There's nothing that can be done about it...

At least, until the device has been finished.

Offline Max

Re: I am ashamed...
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2006, 08:09:33 PM »
Ok, granted.  We put Pinochet in power.  Does that mean that he is not responible for all those people disappearing in Chile? We helped put the Shah back in power in Iran.  So, we are partly responsible for his crimes.  But, what about what the mullahs have done since they took over, are we responsible for that?  And governments, not just the US, thru out time have supported thugs.  

And Ajoxer, the device?

Offline Ajoxer

Re: I am ashamed...
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2006, 08:14:01 PM »
the device.

Offline Ariabella

Re: I am ashamed...
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2006, 08:15:10 PM »
But what is the device?

Offline Swedish Steel

Re: I am ashamed...
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2006, 08:15:45 PM »
Wasn't meant to be inflammatory at all.

As you say, Max, it makes you partly responsible, but maybe that's bad enough. All we can hope for is that the nations of the world doesn't repeat the same old mistakes over and over again. Don't see that happening anytime soon though, I'm sad to say.

Offline Ajoxer

Re: I am ashamed...
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2006, 08:32:55 PM »
It's the device. Anytihng else is outside your clearance.
Fnord, baby, fnord.

Offline Vandren

Re: I am ashamed...
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2006, 09:15:29 PM »
And is the US responsible for . . . Cambodia?
 

To some extent.  Thanks to our wonderful foreign policy.  Heck, we're entirely responsible for the state the Middle East is in today (remember, we put Hussein in power, we funded and trained Bin Ladin, we fought our war with the Soviets in Afghanistan then ignored the place when it came time to rebuild).

Quote
Rwanda?  Sudan?  How about the civil wars in the Congo?

Well, that's Europe's fault, largely.  Redrawing national boundaries across ancient tribal lines is never a good thing.  Thanks to European colonialism, we have most of the militant troubles of Africa today, since they redrew natinoal boundaries basedon who'd colonized where rather than on what tribes lived in what places.  Once again, a classic example of why meddling in a region without knowing its history screws over the following generations (just like the U.S. did in Vietnam).

Quote
There is evil in the world, that has nothing to do with us.

Very true.  I don't think anyone was disputing that.  However, there's a lot out there that we as a nation incite, caused, or inflamed, then tried to sweep under the proverbial rug.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2006, 10:13:12 PM by Vandren »

Offline Elvi

Re: I am ashamed...
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2006, 09:36:10 PM »

We're the bastard child of the world, and we just found the family gun. * shrug.* C'est la vie.

Unfortunately, like all Empires before and most likely after, once you've got to the top, there is only one way to go.
Sooner or later, the 'family gun' will run out of bullets.

Offline Mistiq

Re: I am ashamed...
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2006, 10:39:38 PM »
I'm ashamed as well...mainly because my beloved neices and my possible children will have to study what goes on now as thier American History. I wonder what the will use to sugar-coat it all.

And also America made not have caused genocides or anything but it sure has left it's mark on some countries. Vietnam and Korea to name a few really good examples.

Offline Jefepato

Re: I am ashamed...
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2006, 01:27:12 AM »
Hell, Hitler was inspired to carry out the Holocaust by the way America was treating those of African descent.

Does Godwin's Law apply when the topic of conversation is already war atrocities?

Offline Lilac

Re: I am ashamed...
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2006, 02:46:35 AM »
Having not read the Wikipedia article (thanks to a deeply ingrained distrust of Wikipedia in all its forms), I don't know it that's there or not.  But, thanks to prior knowledge of the subject, I know that it's only just begun to come to the light of "public" knowledge within the last five or six years.  Personally, I doubt the U.S. government will ever admit that they knew about it.  Afterall, our government knew what Hitler was doing almost since the beginning, and said nothing.  In fact, they started quietly doing the same damn thing over here.

Said nothing, maybe - it's one thing to hear about the Final Solution and another to see photographs or details. It is pretty clear that the US government had every intention of participating in war against Germany since the late 1930's.  The concentration camps the Japanese went through, and the eugenics programs pale in comparison to the Final Solution.  It may even be why there was little reaction to it - they thought it was the same thing.

Bad, yes, but there's a difference between locking a family up in an area and providing them with needs and doing surgical experimentation on subjects and making 'jewskin gloves'.

Offline Natalie C. Barney

Re: I am ashamed...
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2006, 03:42:00 PM »
I'm Jewish do not lump my family in with those cowards that walked willingly to their deaths. All my family fought in the resistance movements or died fighting- they fought again in Isreal where many members were on the front lines of the wars to protect what we were given by the United Nations. Those victims disgust me every one that died without taking a German with them spat on the Jews that came before them. Even women and children could take attacks to let the men kill some Germans. Its better than dying without honor or hope.

In fact I met a man who watched Germans kill his son- and I literally spat on the ground at the coward what father could do that. Even if he and his wife died it would have been better than watching their son die without any sort of resistance. Cowardly trash!

And don't put us in the same boat as the Japanese it was war but they were fed, given shelter and medical care. It was war the United States had some cause but what did my people do to deserve what they did to us. Americans didn't put Japanese into ovens!


Offline Mistiq

Re: I am ashamed...
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2006, 04:26:17 PM »
I can't say I know where you are coming from, but I see your point. It sounds just like something Anji would say, it's like...I can't find words.  :-\ Either that or you took them out of my mouth.

Right now I am going to completely agree with you on there, I mean unless he was just trying to cover his ass, I would have tried to do something, tried to trade off my life for my child's or something. But then I wasn't in the ever in that kind of a situation, so I don't know. That seems like something I would do in that situation.