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Author Topic: Chavez' next step.  (Read 1449 times)

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Offline Callie Del NoireTopic starter

Chavez' next step.
« on: August 01, 2009, 12:40:29 PM »
The ruler of Venezula has for several years been doing all he can to seize lasting power over the country by political means (after failing to do so in a coupe d'etat years ago). Seems to me that he's just stepped up his plan.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/08/01/venezuela.radio.stations/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

I find myself when he's going to start demanding more 'living room' for his country. Cause I see a lot of parallels between his actions over the years and a certain dead german nationalist.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Chavez' next step.
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2009, 12:48:59 PM »
I don't think Chavez has half the brains of the aforementioned German, or the charisma. 

Offline Callie Del NoireTopic starter

Re: Chavez' next step.
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2009, 01:01:30 PM »
I don't think Chavez has half the brains of the aforementioned German, or the charisma.

Look at the moves he's making.

A LOT of them parallel with what Hitler did. And do not underestimate the brains of a man from what you see he's doing on the TV. He keeps his own adminstration off balance (keep some of his 'buddies' from gaining the prestige to oust him from inside) turn the screws on EVERYONE outside his party who has any ability to speak against him. He's drawing a line in the sand with anyone in the area that might be a future rival.

And making the US (and to a lesser extent) Europe into the 'capitalist theives' who are the reason that Venezuela isn't succeeding. And quite successfully from the looks of it.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Chavez' next step.
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2009, 01:05:57 PM »
Well just by recognizing those parallels it's a simple enough matter to stop him. "Those who do not learn from history are damned to repeat it." and all that. I sincerely think though Chavez does not have the clout he thinks he does. Plus he's making enemies of the U.S. and Europe. Causing way too much fuss to really get the kind of momentum going he'll need if he pulls a Hitler. Remember Hitler had a whole Great Depression to rally support and the angst from WWI.

Offline consortium11

Re: Chavez' next step.
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2009, 01:07:13 PM »
Chavez clamping down on the media is nothing new... he's been doing it nearly his entire time in power.

And even without getting into Godwin's Fallacy, there's some pretty big differences between the politics and world view of Chavez and a certain other person.

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Re: Chavez' next step.
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2009, 01:11:41 PM »
Not to mention, Chamberlain and his 'appeasement policy' haven't been around for half a century.

Offline OldSchoolGamer

Re: Chavez' next step.
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2009, 04:25:29 AM »
I doubt Chavez will be keen to engage in adventurism, if for no other reason than that other Latin American nations would quickly turn against him if he did.

His strident socialist, anti-American rhetoric is generating lukewarm support, but there's a distinct limit to how far such sentiment can be leveraged.  There is distrust of America amongst many Latin Americans, but far from all, and certainly not the kind of hatred that exists in, say, the Muslim world.  Speeches are fine, to a point, but any general call to arms against the United States would, for the most part, be met with crickets chirping.

Offline Callie Del NoireTopic starter

Re: Chavez' next step.
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2009, 10:30:13 AM »
I do see him lining rivals up against a wall and shooting them in the next 5 years or so in classic south american dictorial style, and I am quite sure if he could manufacture an excuse he'd be across the borders of one of his neighbors and take a bit of their country for his own.


Offline Jude

Re: Chavez' next step.
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2009, 10:55:01 AM »
Chavez may be cracking down on civil liberties, but he's not as bad as Westerners make him out to be.  It's not at all surprising that people demonize him like they do however.  American political figures have a paranoid fear of socialism and communism, and his ideas are a fusion of that with the Democratic System.  People in America love to talk about him like he's a dictator; but he's not.

He was elected into office fairly both times (the second time was actually recognized by international agencies).  All of the changes to the Venezuelan constitution he proposes have to be voted in by the Venezuelan legislative body.  He hasn't burned the Reichtag yet by any stretch of the imagination, which is really the strongest point against comparison to Hitler.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2009, 10:56:07 AM by RandomNumber »

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Chavez' next step.
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2009, 11:02:00 AM »
Excuse me but Chevez seems to me a kindly dictator.

He respected every vote even against his policies, provides for his people who generally seem to like him and last time I looked was properly elected.

If the people didn't like him they would vote him out, or if necessary take up arms and depose him if he was evil. Libertarian or not the people there are not our concern they have a democratic government sufficient to vote people into or out of power if they care to. Its not our governments place to interfere.

If he does act in such a manner as stated here by other the UN can intervene they have the authority, I would not send troops but would not mind China or other nations doing so after a resolution. All in all I find that unlikely he wants still to be a respected power in South America to counter the Americans so I think he will behave.

I I will add the Venezualan Constitution offers massive rights, an obligation for national health care and human rights it would be hard for him to turn against it like you also suggest in some cases here.


Offline Callie Del NoireTopic starter

Re: Chavez' next step.
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2009, 12:48:35 PM »
So that is why the 'kindly misunderstood president' of Venezuela seems set to turn off every rival who can have any avenue of media to criticise his policies. That is why the man has gone out of his way to work around the term limits of his office, despite orignally promising to stand by it.

Check out the tactic he's done to modify the constitution to allow him to stay in office. Read up on what every private studio, radio station and paper that doesn't toe the line to what he says gets done to them. One of the owners of one of the few remaining private television studios has gone though.

Repeated investigations into 'tax fraud' and inspections of his home to ensure that he wasn't 'hunting endangered animals'.

I'm not pointing at fear to the fact that he nationalized assets and such, I'm watching how he's circumventing his own constitution or rewriting it.

Last year, a peaceful protest of students going out to protest the proposed changes to the constitution were beaten by 'un-named' antagonists that were supposedly allowed through the police cordon without a problem. (Of course most US coverage at the time was more concerned by Paris Hilton's DUI sentencing).

A lot of his 'changes' seemed directed at curtailing his opposition, or allowing his supporters to hold the reins of power no matter what change of heart the voters might have later on.
 

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Chavez' next step.
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2009, 01:13:25 PM »
Sic Semper Tyrannis.

Offline The Overlord

Re: Chavez' next step.
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2009, 05:16:21 PM »

You know, Chavez makes me think sometimes it’s almost alright to go and bomb someone just to knock them down a peg or two and administer a good dose of humility. I used to think he was doing a fairly admirable thing; encouraging Latin American nations to stand up to US ambitions in the region. At some point I realized he was just the Kanye West of global politics…he’s said a few things to consider, but now he just needs to shut the hell up.

Of course that would only be proof of American aggression that he’s been railing about. And I do tend to wonder if that’s part of his game; trying to spark a concentration with the US on some level to make it appear the instigator.

Here’s hoping our leadership has the skill to outmaneuver any such ambitions.

Offline OldSchoolGamer

Re: Chavez' next step.
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2009, 02:16:45 AM »
You know, Chavez makes me think sometimes it’s almost alright to go and bomb someone just to knock them down a peg or two and administer a good dose of humility. I used to think he was doing a fairly admirable thing; encouraging Latin American nations to stand up to US ambitions in the region. At some point I realized he was just the Kanye West of global politics…he’s said a few things to consider, but now he just needs to shut the hell up.

Of course that would only be proof of American aggression that he’s been railing about. And I do tend to wonder if that’s part of his game; trying to spark a concentration with the US on some level to make it appear the instigator.

Here’s hoping our leadership has the skill to outmaneuver any such ambitions.

Bush was a far more conducive target for Chavez to channel such anger against than Obama is.  I think the Obama administration has taken a lot of the wind out of Chavez's anti-Americanism.

Offline The Overlord

Re: Chavez' next step.
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2009, 01:11:26 AM »
Bush was a far more conducive target for Chavez to channel such anger against than Obama is.  I think the Obama administration has taken a lot of the wind out of Chavez's anti-Americanism.


I would tend to agree.

And I just realized I threw in a concentration where there should have been a confrontation. Whoopsie.  ::)

Offline SuperHans

Re: Chavez' next step.
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2009, 02:19:44 AM »
Quote
He was elected into office fairly both times

Robert Mugabe has been fairly elected. Ahmedinejad was fairly elected. The fact that apparently democratic elections have taken place is irrelevant. What is relevant is the consequences for those that vote against the ruling regime, and I'm sure the Chavez regime is keeping a close eye on the opposition. For many of these regimes, they can't deny elections because it will lose them their last fragment of credibility on the international stage. They just influence the election and influence the constitution to allow themselves more power, like Chavez is doing.

Quote
All of the changes to the Venezuelan constitution he proposes have to be voted in by the Venezuelan legislative body.

So, it's tyranny of the majority. Whether the Caracas parliament voted in his changes or not, they're still changes that would be seen quite clearly as a move towards totalitarianism in a truly democratic society.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Chavez' next step.
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2009, 11:00:03 AM »
And here we have a Tyranny of the almighty dollar and those that have more of them, than others.

Face it Obama is a tool of the monied elites not the people.

Offline Maeven

Re: Chavez' next step.
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2009, 12:05:23 PM »
Please stay on topic. This thread is about Chavez and Venezuela. 

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Chavez' next step.
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2009, 03:42:19 PM »
Chevez = Tyrant

US Government = Tyrant

Its only a matter again who is in charge.

Anyway I don't see why Chevez is our problem the people elected and seem to want him there or they would vote him (or drive him) out of power.

Offline Callie Del NoireTopic starter

Re: Chavez' next step.
« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2009, 03:51:15 PM »
Chevez = Tyrant

US Government = Tyrant

Its only a matter again who is in charge.

Anyway I don't see why Chevez is our problem the people elected and seem to want him there or they would vote him (or drive him) out of power.

That's just it.. it took THREE recall attempts to get the government to do a vote, and there was more than a little worry that the revote that kept him in office was shady. Understandably he didn't allow american monitors, but he was also reluctant to let ANY observers in without curtailing their movement/access to the process.

And statistical analysis of the vote seems a bit shady.


Offline consortium11

Re: Chavez' next step.
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2009, 04:45:57 PM »
Chevez = Tyrant

US Government = Tyrant

Its only a matter again who is in charge.

Anyway I don't see why Chevez is our problem the people elected and seem to want him there or they would vote him (or drive him) out of power.

I don't think anyone (here) is advocating sending an army over to replace him or one of the US's near trademarked South American "revolutions."

Rather I think we're concerned about the way he treats the opposition, his centralisation of power and the pretty nefarious stuff he does.

And using a "well if the people didn't want him they'd revolt and drive him out of power" argument doesn't exactly hold up.

Offline Callie Del NoireTopic starter

Re: Chavez' next step.
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2009, 04:54:29 PM »
I don't think anyone (here) is advocating sending an army over to replace him or one of the US's near trademarked South American "revolutions."

Rather I think we're concerned about the way he treats the opposition, his centralisation of power and the pretty nefarious stuff he does.

And using a "well if the people didn't want him they'd revolt and drive him out of power" argument doesn't exactly hold up.

My worries are that we will stay out of it. (Not that we could do much given we can't even fill our 2 1/2 war requirement right now) but that he's ramping up to something big. We, Americans  I mean, have a well established history of putting our head in the sand and going 'oh it's not our problem' till the people we could have talked to or helped build a coalitiion to moderate or watched over make themselves our problems

Both World Wars were a 'European' problem till we got pulled into it by events that we couldn't ignore.

Iraq was an 'ally' that we helped for YEARS.

Afganistan was a good example of how we DIDN'T follow up on what we started. We helped them push the Russians out and then.. quit. If you look into what Charlie Wilson wanted to do AFTERWARDS (build a real government, roads, infrastructure, ect) a lot of the issues we face in that part of the world would have been avoided.

A lot of folks tend to forget both the Taliban and Al Quaida (sp?) were orginally trained and financed by the US. We dropped them like a hot potatoe when we got what we wanted done.

A little diplomacy, detente and some friggin follow up would have made the last few decades a lot nicer all around.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Chavez' next step.
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2009, 09:43:14 PM »
Rather I think we're concerned about the way he treats the opposition, his centralisation of power and the pretty nefarious stuff he does.
That's right! I believe that every nation has the right to democratically select their despots free and clear. Chavez makes that whole process rather shady and unwholesome don't you think... (I am not being sarcastic in the least, seriously.)