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Author Topic: If you don't pay taxes you don't deserve government help!  (Read 1907 times)

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Offline ShrowdedPoetTopic starter

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If you don't pay taxes you don't deserve government help!
« on: July 09, 2009, 05:33:49 PM »
This was spurred from the healthcare debate.  A member made a statement that if you don't contribute taxes you don't deserve to reap the government help.  I can understand this sentiment but really.  Are you gonna deny help to someone who is severely ill or starving to death just because they aren't a citizen of this country and do not pay taxes?  A sick child will always be a sick child no matter where they belong.  A sick or starving human being is the same.  I get sick to death of how we seem to bow down to the all mighty dollar and loose sight of the fact that these are human being in need of HELP!  These people often work hard to provide for their families and they are here because they wanted a better life.  Isn't that what everyone wants?  A better life for themselves and for their families?  Is it right of us to look down on them because they're not paying taxes?  They are human beings for the sake of whatever deity you hail to!

Offline Scott

Re: If you don't pay taxes you don't deserve government help!
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2009, 06:06:34 PM »
I don't think anybodies looking down on them for not paying taxes... in fact most of us admire them. They have truly mastered the art of taking resources from a system they don't contribute anything to. In fact, my health benefits at my job are terrable, so I'm going to go and see if I can get better health benefits from the company down the street, now granted I don't want to work for them, or provide any services for them at all, I just want the benefits. Maybe if I look sad enough they will give them to me. :)

 
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 06:08:45 PM by Scott »

Offline ShrowdedPoetTopic starter

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Re: If you don't pay taxes you don't deserve government help!
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2009, 06:07:47 PM »
They work, that's contributing services.

Offline Jude

Re: If you don't pay taxes you don't deserve government help!
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2009, 06:12:21 PM »
A sick child will always be a sick child no matter where they belong.  A sick or starving human being is the same.  I get sick to death of how we seem to bow down to the all mighty dollar and loose sight of the fact that these are human being in need of HELP!  These people often work hard to provide for their families and they are here because they wanted a better life.  Isn't that what everyone wants?  A better life for themselves and for their families?  Is it right of us to look down on them because they're not paying taxes?  They are human beings for the sake of whatever deity you hail to!
I don't think people who are in favor of refusing help to non-tax payers are actually in favor of that in life or death situations, it's just easy to paint a broad brush in a statement like that without really thinking about it.  I mean, how many of you would actually walk away and turn your back on a dying person who really needs you?  I doubt many people could say "me", but when you ask to exclude tax-payers from life-saving healthcare, you're asking other people to do something that you yourself can't do.  That's just hypocritical and heartless.

Offline ShrowdedPoetTopic starter

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Re: If you don't pay taxes you don't deserve government help!
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2009, 06:16:00 PM »
. . .?  I didn't say I was for that.  I was saying I was against that.

Offline Vekseid

Re: If you don't pay taxes you don't deserve government help!
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2009, 06:17:37 PM »
I think the problem with your position SP is there really are people whose sole goal in life is to just leach off of 'the system'. Not providing them any level of care has its share of issues (disease control), but at the same time there needs to be a way to weed out those who are being actively nonproductive.

I think in part we're also going through a bit of a phase - we have quite a lot of excess capacity, so a socialist arrangement (guarantee minimum needs, you want more than that, work) actually becomes economically feasible whether or not it is actually less productive, which itself is a debatable point.

Offline Scott

Re: If you don't pay taxes you don't deserve government help!
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2009, 06:18:04 PM »
I don't think the amount of ditches dug, houses roofed, or fruit picked contributes to our government when they are paid in cash and not taxed besides normal sales taxes that noone can avoid. Especially since those jobs could be filled by people currently taking resources from our unemployment programs and the tax money they would generate could be fed back into the system to replenish what those unemployed people previously used.



   

Offline ShrowdedPoetTopic starter

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Re: If you don't pay taxes you don't deserve government help!
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2009, 06:21:27 PM »
I think the problem with your position SP is there really are people whose sole goal in life is to just leach off of 'the system'. Not providing them any level of care has its share of issues (disease control), but at the same time there needs to be a way to weed out those who are being actively nonproductive.

I think in part we're also going through a bit of a phase - we have quite a lot of excess capacity, so a socialist arrangement (guarantee minimum needs, you want more than that, work) actually becomes economically feasible whether or not it is actually less productive, which itself is a debatable point.

*nods at Veks*  Yes, I see this all too often and it does anger me.  But I just have trouble turning my back on someone in need no matter how distasteful they may be.  But if they are just leaching usually they're not really in need either. 

I don't think the amount of ditches dug, houses roofed, or fruit picked contributes to our government when they are paid in cash and not taxed besides normal sales taxes that noone can avoid. Especially since those jobs could be filled by people currently taking resources from our unemployment programs and the tax money they would generate could be fed back into the system to replenish what those unemployed people previously used.

Those are services that contribute to our, yes you and I, quality of life!

Offline Jude

Re: If you don't pay taxes you don't deserve government help!
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2009, 06:23:12 PM »
I think the problem with your position SP is there really are people whose sole goal in life is to just leach off of 'the system'.
Personally I'm wondering how common these "welfare queens" are.  While I don't think they're entirely fictional, I do think they're an archetype (and in it a talking point) which was painstakingly manufactured by Reagan Era conservatives as an easy way to justify cutting social programs.  I honestly don't know anyone who's actually employed the "welfare queen" stereotype in their arguments that actually knew how prevalent they were statistically.  To me this makes all of those arguments a little silly and speculative.  It's like saying, "I'm not going into those woods, everyone knows there are bears in woods, and I have honey on me."

EDIT:  Edited the quote about bears to better reflect the situation.  Also I think the "welfare queen" idea is probably oversimplified, I can't actually imagine any psychologically healthy person being OK with being a leech off of the system without any goals just drifting through life and trying to dodge having to do any work.  The key would of course be psychologically healthy, which is such a vague point, I know.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 06:26:19 PM by RandomNumber »

Offline ShrowdedPoetTopic starter

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Re: If you don't pay taxes you don't deserve government help!
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2009, 06:29:14 PM »
Personally I'm wondering how common these "welfare queens" are.  While I don't think they're entirely fictional, I do think they're an archetype (and in it a talking point) which was painstakingly manufactured by Reagan Era conservatives as an easy way to justify cutting social programs.  I honestly don't know anyone who's actually employed the "welfare queen" stereotype in their arguments that actually knew how prevalent they were statistically.  To me this makes all of those arguments a little silly and speculative.  It's like saying, "I'm not going into those woods, everyone knows there are bears in woods, and I have honey on me."

EDIT:  Edited the quote about bears to better reflect the situation.  Also I think the "welfare queen" idea is probably oversimplified, I can't actually imagine any psychologically healthy person being OK with being a leech off of the system without any goals just drifting through life and trying to dodge having to do any work.  The key would of course be psychologically healthy, which is such a vague point, I know.

I see these people daily.  They have over a thousand dollars worth of food stamps, are well fed, and have wads of cash to spend on whatever they want.  The government pays for their food, their utilities, their housing, and their medical.  They come through my line with not just one but two, three, four, and even five foodstamps cards.  Wads of cash for their boozes and cigs.  They'll even buy groceries for their buds.  Right behind them is the old lady who is starving and can't seem to afford that essential food that she just tried to buy and what can I do?  All I can do is say, it denied your card m'am do you have another form of payment and feel really bad.  I see it every day here.  It is painful.

Offline Scott

Re: If you don't pay taxes you don't deserve government help!
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2009, 06:29:45 PM »
Those are services that contribute to our, yes you and I, quality of life!

I strongly disagree, if you want to improve my quality of life stop giving the non-tax payer money for his services and replace him with a previously unemployed worker citizen who will pay into the system so OUR... social security/unemployment/food assistance/road/schools etc... programs are fully funded and available to US should we need them... I don't like tomatoes that much anyway.   

Offline ShrowdedPoetTopic starter

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Re: If you don't pay taxes you don't deserve government help!
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2009, 06:32:03 PM »
I strongly disagree, if you want to improve my quality of life stop giving the non-tax payer money for his services and replace him with a previously unemployed worker citizen who will pay into the system so OUR... social security/unemployment/food assistance/road/schools etc... programs are fully funded and available to US should we need them... I don't like tomatoes that much anyway.

Is it all about you?  I pay taxes and I don't mind paying for them.  I've lived a hard life.  And when it comes down to it I'm willing to help those in need.  I would want people to do the same for me whether they be a U.S. Citizen or that of another nation.

Offline Valerian

Re: If you don't pay taxes you don't deserve government help!
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2009, 06:42:32 PM »
It isn't all about either of you.  This is a general discussion that will stay civil, and not devolve into arguing, correct?

Offline ShrowdedPoetTopic starter

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Re: If you don't pay taxes you don't deserve government help!
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2009, 06:44:32 PM »
It isn't all about either of you.  This is a general discussion that will stay civil, and not devolve into arguing, correct?

Was not being uncivil, wasn't even upset, just making a point.

Offline Scott

Re: If you don't pay taxes you don't deserve government help!
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2009, 06:45:47 PM »
Is it all about you?  I pay taxes and I don't mind paying for them.  I've lived a hard life.  And when it comes down to it I'm willing to help those in need.  I would want people to do the same for me whether they be a U.S. Citizen or that of another nation.

YES, it is about me, and it's about YOU, and it's about every other taxpayer. I honestly resent the heck of the fact that an illegal immigrants child is taking food from the mouth of a unemployed citizens child's mouth, and I wonder honestly why it doesn't bother you too?

If a church or any other nongovernmental organization wants to feed non-citizens then that's great, but the government isn't a charity, it's function is to protect and serve our way of life, not improve theirs.   

Offline ShrowdedPoetTopic starter

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Re: If you don't pay taxes you don't deserve government help!
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2009, 06:49:19 PM »
It's not ok for an American to be unemployed but it's ok for an "illegal" to be?  It doesn't bother me because I don't see it as us and them.  I see it as human beings in need.  I am a human, they are a human, other tax payers are humans.  I want to help people who need help.  I don't care what nation they're from or who they pay taxes to or don't pay taxes to for that matter. 

Offline kylie

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Re: If you don't pay taxes you don't deserve government help!
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2009, 06:51:06 PM »
I've seen migrant agriculture workers packed into cell-sized shanties with barely any utilities, and kept under slave-like order.  Not on the Mexican border, but in the Pacific Northwest.  I was looking in 1995, but we could also try some research on migrant conditions.  For example:
http://www.migrant.net/pdf/farmworkerfacts.pdf

As for the conditions in domestic labor, some chapters of Ehrenreich and Hochschild, Global Woman (Holt Paperbacks 2004).  Women often pressed into long hours with ambiguous or no contracts, kept isolated from others of their language group, frequently humiliated if not sexually abused, sometimes beaten, sometimes kept hidden, papers taken...  This saves people and government a whole lot of money.  It makes time for some middle and upper class women to stay there, and often provides for their children's care.  All of this while distancing mothers from their own children in less wealthy countries.

There is a question as to how many established citizens would choose low-paying, uncomfortable, high-risk jobs that migrants often do.  Many would certainly bristle at the conditions being imposed, which are below legal.  Or, some are excused as being "beyond the purview" -- they are not citizens, not legal etc.  Tough luck.   

There is systemic exploitation of migrants precisely because they are generally not citizens.  This serves to keep the prices of produce and domestic service low.  It's similar to buying textiles at Walmart (but Walmart is just one particularly strong example) because labor and overhead are cheaper in Asia.  Industries and/or government which do not provide across the board for the security, health and welfare of many laborers are cutting a very meaningful profit.

« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 06:54:08 PM by kylie »

Offline Vekseid

Re: If you don't pay taxes you don't deserve government help!
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2009, 06:55:30 PM »
Personally I'm wondering how common these "welfare queens" are.  While I don't think they're entirely fictional, I do think they're an archetype (and in it a talking point) which was painstakingly manufactured by Reagan Era conservatives as an easy way to justify cutting social programs.  I honestly don't know anyone who's actually employed the "welfare queen" stereotype in their arguments that actually knew how prevalent they were statistically.  To me this makes all of those arguments a little silly and speculative.  It's like saying, "I'm not going into those woods, everyone knows there are bears in woods, and I have honey on me."

EDIT:  Edited the quote about bears to better reflect the situation.  Also I think the "welfare queen" idea is probably oversimplified, I can't actually imagine any psychologically healthy person being OK with being a leech off of the system without any goals just drifting through life and trying to dodge having to do any work.  The key would of course be psychologically healthy, which is such a vague point, I know.

Lots of people are not psychologically healthy. Trust me -_- However, I believe there was a Washington study that showed that sheltering homeless men unconditionally proved to be more beneficial than to try to force them to go dry from the start. There is something to be said for removing desperation from the system, not just for their own confidence (address, phone number, food, shelter, internet access and hopefully eventually health care), but also because of the sheer number of employment scams that go on.

I doubt welfare queens represent more than a percent or so, maybe two, but it's common enough that I have actually heard people declare that that was their goal in life. Which is extremely frustrating to encounter. "I just had my eighth kid. What are you going to do about it?" ...

Offline Scott

Re: If you don't pay taxes you don't deserve government help!
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2009, 06:55:48 PM »
It's not ok for an American to be unemployed but it's ok for an "illegal" to be?  It doesn't bother me because I don't see it as us and them.  I see it as human beings in need.  I am a human, they are a human, other tax payers are humans.  I want to help people who need help.  I don't care what nation they're from or who they pay taxes to or don't pay taxes to for that matter.

Yes it's ok for an illegal to be unemployed, maybe they will go back to a country that they are a citizen of and go to work there. Again, if any other organization besides government wants to contribute to their benefit then thats wonderful, but it's not a job of our government to support people who are not citizens of the country it serves. 

Offline ShrowdedPoetTopic starter

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Re: If you don't pay taxes you don't deserve government help!
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2009, 07:00:07 PM »
They left their country for a reason.  I am here because my ancestors immigrated from Ireland and Scotland to escape the poor conditions there.  They were met with horrible conditions but it was still better from which they came.  And lets not forget that there wouldn't even be an America if English hadn't come over and used the resources of the Native Americans to build their empire.   

Offline consortium11

Re: If you don't pay taxes you don't deserve government help!
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2009, 07:00:21 PM »
Is it all about you?  I pay taxes and I don't mind paying for them.  I've lived a hard life.  And when it comes down to it I'm willing to help those in need.  I would want people to do the same for me whether they be a U.S. Citizen or that of another nation.

While the arguement about refusing social service type benefits (especially those similar to health care) to non-taxpayers is so full of holes it's at best a rallying call and nowhere near a coherent policy, this arguement annoys me.

If you don't mind paying for them they why don't you donate to charity to help them? Why do you need the government to take money from everyone?

Offline Silk

Re: If you don't pay taxes you don't deserve government help!
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2009, 07:00:29 PM »



There is a question as to how many established citizens would choose low-paying, uncomfortable, high-risk jobs that migrants often do.  Many would certainly bristle at the conditions being imposed, which are below legal.  Or, some are excused as being "beyond the purview" -- they are not citizens, not legal etc.  Tough luck.   


This situation has happened in the UK recently, the professionally unemployed will not take those sorts of jobs, but the ones who have felt the bite and have been made redundant from work will do it to make ends meet, so its stuck in a debate that one of the few benefits of migrant workers is going out and now the british workforce that "is" willing is now getting penalised because of it. And it is causing more people to go into benefits and alike, because there desperate for the work but even the low pay high risk jobs are taken.

Offline ShrowdedPoetTopic starter

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Re: If you don't pay taxes you don't deserve government help!
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2009, 07:04:58 PM »
While the arguement about refusing social service type benefits (especially those similar to health care) to non-taxpayers is so full of holes it's at best a rallying call and nowhere near a coherent policy, this arguement annoys me.

If you don't mind paying for them they why don't you donate to charity to help them? Why do you need the government to take money from everyone?

All I have that I could possibly donate is my taxes.  And often I don't trust charities.  I think that any decent person should be willing to help other human beings in need of help.  But all the same that's just my opinion I suppose.

Offline Scott

Re: If you don't pay taxes you don't deserve government help!
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2009, 07:24:59 PM »
They left their country for a reason.  I am here because my ancestors immigrated from Ireland and Scotland to escape the poor conditions there.  They were met with horrible conditions but it was still better from which they came.  And lets not forget that there wouldn't even be an America if English hadn't come over and used the resources of the Native Americans to build their empire.   

We have avenues to citizenship now, and I have no problem with enticing illegals to use them with unemployment. hunger is a great motivator.

Your right though, I wish they would tax us more to feed everyone... in fact, take everything every US citizen earns and just feed the world. We'll keep on working, with no hope of ever actually attaining anything but the satisfaction of knowing that the rest of the world is fat and happy.

 

Offline ShrowdedPoetTopic starter

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Re: If you don't pay taxes you don't deserve government help!
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2009, 07:28:28 PM »
We have avenues to citizenship now, and I have no problem with enticing illegals to use them with unemployment. hunger is a great motivator.

Your right though, I wish they would tax us more to feed everyone... in fact, take everything every US citizen earns and just feed the world. We'll keep on working, with no hope of ever actually attaining anything but the satisfaction of knowing that the rest of the world is fat and happy.

That's uncivil and does not add to the conversation.  I personally would be willing to starve to help a hungry child.