Right to Repair

[GloomCookie]

Woo! I saw this news article. Starting January 1, the state of Colorado requires that farm equipment manufacturers (especially John Deere) to provide manuals and parts to make repairs in a major win for Right to Repair.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/colorado-passes-first-us-right-repair-legislation-farmers-2023-04-12/

While I know this is old-hat for our European friends, this is a major win for us in the United States. A lot of equipment, especially farm equipment, is deliberately built to make repairs difficult and sometimes even shut down the equipment and make it where the authorized equipment dealers can revoke the lease, as most farm equipment these days doesn't allow the farmer to outright buy the equipment.

I've been a big proponent of Right to Repair for several years after learning about it from Louis Rossmann over on YouTube (Channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@rossmanngroup)

You can find more here: https://www.repair.org/stand-up

[Beguile's Mistress]

As long as lessors refuse to take responsibility for their equipment and repair it for low or no cost to the lessee and down time is extended by the lessor in an attempt to push for additional leased equipment this is the way it should be.

[Sludgewave]

A spokesperson for Deere & Co responded to the passage of the bill, saying that it supports farmers right to repair but believes that the legislation is "unnecessary and will carry unintended consequences."

I somewhat feel bad for not having much more to say other than that, but seriously

[GloomCookie]

John Deere Rep: "The unintended consequence will be we can't charge stupid high prices for simple repairs. Do you know what this is going to do to our business model? We might have to actually be decent human beings."

Seriously, John Deere Co. has been vehemently opposed to any and all right to repair legislation for years, and isn't afraid to throw their weight around.

[Greenthorn]

I'll admit, I knew nothing about this topic. I don't understand why the companies would not want to repair the machines at a fair rate or allow a lessee to do a repair themselves, especially if there were a safety issue. No, I understand... greed. I wonder if the leases had/have some kind of waiver in place to ensure the companies cannot be sued for injuries/death.

[Oniya]

Well, if I understand it correctly, it's more like 'You can only have your John Deere (TM) machine repaired by a John Deere (TM) mechanic, who must also be a John Deere (TM) employee.  So, Wayne down the street can't learn how to repair John Deere (TM) machines and provide service to his neighbors at a competing rate.  (Because if Wayne is charging better prices, then John Deere (TM) loses out on the repair, or has to consider lowering their price.)

[Vekseid]

Not even that. Out in the middle of Montana, your machine breaks, you can't afford to wait potentially days for a mechanic, period.

[Keelan]

Well, if I understand it correctly, it's more like 'You can only have your John Deere (TM) machine repaired by a John Deere (TM) mechanic, who must also be a John Deere (TM) employee.  So, Wayne down the street can't learn how to repair John Deere (TM) machines and provide service to his neighbors at a competing rate.  (Because if Wayne is charging better prices, then John Deere (TM) loses out on the repair, or has to consider lowering their price.)

They also have their tractor's computer systems detecting if the parts are John Deere parts, so there's no aftermarket parts and if you try it'll lock you from using the system.

Farmers in general have a tendency to get royally fucked because nobody else really buys serious farming equipment but farmers and farmers are kind of a required job for society to continue functioning.

But hey, what does it matter what happens to a bunch of redneck hicks in flyover states? You can just get food from the grocery story! /BARELY-CONTAINED ENRAGED SARCASM

[Keelan]

(Oh, to clarify: the sarcasm is not directed at Oniya; Oniya is cool :3)

(Realized it could be interpreted as targeted and that was unintended)

[Oniya]

(Oh, to clarify: the sarcasm is not directed at Oniya; Oniya is cool :3)

(Realized it could be interpreted as targeted and that was unintended)

(I fully grasped who the sarcasm was directed at.  :3 )

[Missy]

I guess all in all it's just another example of unregulated capitalism

[Keelan]

I guess all in all it's just another example of unregulated capitalism

Right, because the communists and/or socialists care SOOO much more for the petty bourgeois kulaks farmers. Wonderful track record there...

[TheGlyphstone]

Pretty sure the operative word there was 'Unregulated'. Because as we all know, any action by the government that might harm a corporation's profit margins is like painting a hammer and sickle in blood across the American flag.

[Keelan]

Pretty sure the operative word there was 'Unregulated'. Because as we all know, any action by the government that might harm a corporation's profit margins is like painting a hammer and sickle in blood across the American flag.

While true, my point is more that this is not a uniquely capitalist problem; ~25% of the world is involved in agriculture to some extent, they feed the other roughly ~75%, and yet it seems a significant number of people are so far removed from the process that they don't really care, or even worse actively condemn them for one reason or another (see my sarcasm above). This has resulted in them being fucked with time and time again, whether it's financially exploiting them, 'collectivizing' or 'nationalizing' their land from them, or otherwise just trying to force them to do stupid shit from behind a barrel of a gun (literally or figuratively) when the people with the finger on the trigger don't know jack shit about how to grow food or raise cattle and thus the consequences of their actions.

The fact that I live somewhere where even in 2020 I wasn't concerned about finding food - maybe not my ideal food, but I figured I could still find SOMETHING to eat - is a goddamn miracle as far as I'm concerned, and firmly subscribe to the saying "don't fuck with the people who make your food"

That, however, I fear may be a different thread's worth of discussion. I am very happy for the right to repair stuff personally.

[Vekseid]

Right, because the communists and/or socialists care SOOO much more for the petty bourgeois kulaks farmers. Wonderful track record there...

This is completely irrelevant to what Missy posted.

If the best you can offer to a genuine, well-documented problem is "Hurr durr x no one else brought up is worse", then you have nothing to contribute.

If you are going to participate, contribute something.

Rather than respond to invented strawmen that exist solely inside your own head.

[TheGlyphstone]

While true, my point is more that this is not a uniquely capitalist problem; ~25% of the world is involved in agriculture to some extent, they feed the other roughly ~75%, and yet it seems a significant number of people are so far removed from the process that they don't really care, or even worse actively condemn them for one reason or another (see my sarcasm above). This has resulted in them being fucked with time and time again, whether it's financially exploiting them, 'collectivizing' or 'nationalizing' their land from them, or otherwise just trying to force them to do stupid shit from behind a barrel of a gun (literally or figuratively) when the people with the finger on the trigger don't know jack shit about how to grow food or raise cattle and thus the consequences of their actions.

The fact that I live somewhere where even in 2020 I wasn't concerned about finding food - maybe not my ideal food, but I figured I could still find SOMETHING to eat - is a goddamn miracle as far as I'm concerned, and firmly subscribe to the saying "don't fuck with the people who make your food"

That, however, I fear may be a different thread's worth of discussion. I am very happy for the right to repair stuff personally.

That's why I pointed out that the modifier 'unregulated' was carrying a lot of weight that you seemed to gloss over to take Missy's comment as a unilateral criticism of capitalism entirely. It's not a flaw inherent to capitalism, but a flaw related to the lack of oversight, regulation or limits which leads to this sort of exploitative behavior. It's no accident that the quasi-aristocratic elite Party members in historically 'Communist' nations existed at a social stratum higher than the common farmers, exactly the same way the quasi-aristocratic ultra-rich in an unregulated capitalist society exist in what amounts to a separate universe from the common farmers.

The fact that there's a certain hypocrisy to how many of the people who loudly denounce the evils of 'socialism' at every opportunity will cheer when the government is intervening in a way they approve of is equally off-topic to the discussion, though.

[GloomCookie]

The topic of communist farmers aside...

John Deere and other manufacturers do things deliberately to harm the ability of farmers to perform self repairs. The mention of computer hardware to limit what parts can and can't be used extends to other areas, such as curved windshields. On a tractor that can't top over 60 mph (96 kph), they claim curved windshields are necessary for aerodynamics. That sounds nice until you realize also that since the glass isn't flat, it means they can't get a piece easily.

Hewlett-Packard is notorious for being the same way, such as having ink cartridges that have arbitrary expiration dates and you can't use 3rd party. There's a big market on eBay for empty HP cartridges because people have figured out how to refill and resell these cartridges with reset chips. Other companies like Brother don't do this, and while they may not exactly encourage aftermarket parts or 3rd party cartridges, they don't actively fight them, either. That's one reason I refuse to ever purchase another HP (My mom thinks I'm being ridiculous about it).

I'm pro-consumer, so seeing that there's some pro-consumer regulations coming out is a wonderful thing. I would love it if there was a resurgence in aftermarket and 3rd party site for everything. Stealerships Sorry, dealerships are overpriced and really don't give any great advantage, and they're really only useful when there's a company recall. Even then, because you must go to the dealership, they have no incentive to get it back to you soon since they're not making much money off the repair.

That's also why I adore redneck engineering, which is finding creative solutions to problems.

[TheGlyphstone]

I feel the same way about Apple and the Cult of Jobs, with how they build forced-obsolescence into their phones and tablets by changing charger designs, serializing internal components, or just deliberately scragging the functionality of older models with 'automatic' firmware updates.

[GloomCookie]

I feel the same way about Apple and the Cult of Jobs, with how they build forced-obsolescence into their phones and tablets by changing charger designs, serializing internal components, or just deliberately scragging the functionality of older models with 'automatic' firmware updates.

Oh no, it's so so much worse than that.  Apple refuses to release blueprints for their parts, deliberately chooses to use mismatching screws in different parts of the same product, and do everything possible to hamstring independent repair. When you submit something to Apple for repair, they literally remove the defective part and throw it away and install a new part and charge you insane prices for it. That's also why Apple never guarantees your data when you turn it in.

[Keelan]

Out of respect for moving past the previous section I was involved in:

Xerox and Ricoh, full-size or larger office printers. I used those extensively before.

First, you usually do not own the printer; you are renting it, and they are tracking how much you use it.

Second, you have to buy their ink, why? Because no other ink will work. Some models even get mad if you re-insert the same cartridge.

Third, the machine will tell you when your ink is getting low in each cartridge. With both, this is around the 30-40% mark, and many internet-connected systems will be set up to automatically purchase new ink at this time. If you know what you're doing, you can run these things for significantly longer.

Fourth, you can't work on these machines, not just because they can be difficult to access and involve lots of unmarked bits of electronic boards, but also because if they detect an unmodified repair when someone's eventually out to look at it, they'll fine you - it's in the contract. It's actually so planned out that if you look inside you can actually see the bits that are 'flagged' for end-user access.

Fifth, they update the models AND update the cartridges now and then; sometimes you'll be ordering the same cartridge you've always ordered, but then notice that the little bit doesn't fit because they added a new slot or changed the little rotating bit on teh back's diameter a cm or two. Same with similar models; 99% of two different models' cartridges are exactly the same, but they're incompatible because the little bottom slots are slightly different.

...actually had a funny story about someone getting pissed and breaking one of the slots to make it fit. Sensor read it fine (un) surprisingly.

[Azy]

Out of respect for moving past the previous section I was involved in:

Xerox and Ricoh, full-size or larger office printers. I used those extensively before.

First, you usually do not own the printer; you are renting it, and they are tracking how much you use it.

Second, you have to buy their ink, why? Because no other ink will work. Some models even get mad if you re-insert the same cartridge.

Third, the machine will tell you when your ink is getting low in each cartridge. With both, this is around the 30-40% mark, and many internet-connected systems will be set up to automatically purchase new ink at this time. If you know what you're doing, you can run these things for significantly longer.

Fourth, you can't work on these machines, not just because they can be difficult to access and involve lots of unmarked bits of electronic boards, but also because if they detect an unmodified repair when someone's eventually out to look at it, they'll fine you - it's in the contract. It's actually so planned out that if you look inside you can actually see the bits that are 'flagged' for end-user access.

Fifth, they update the models AND update the cartridges now and then; sometimes you'll be ordering the same cartridge you've always ordered, but then notice that the little bit doesn't fit because they added a new slot or changed the little rotating bit on teh back's diameter a cm or two. Same with similar models; 99% of two different models' cartridges are exactly the same, but they're incompatible because the little bottom slots are slightly different.

...actually had a funny story about someone getting pissed and breaking one of the slots to make it fit. Sensor read it fine (un) surprisingly.

I had a printer like that, and I think it was an HP.  I was highly encouraged to sign up for their automatic ink refill service.  They did have a free package, but you could only print like 10 pages a month.  Yeah, the package tiers were based on how much you print.  I don't usually print that much, I just wanted a printer because sometimes being able to print out documents sent to you in an email comes in handy. 

I started having trouble because the stupid thing could almost never connect to the HP server.  Then I ended up printing a bunch of stuff for my mom, and it was like 20 pages.  Like oh no, that's double my 10 page limit!  Of course it was able to connect to the server shortly after that, and of course they decided to charge me $15 for printing too much.  And until I paid them my printer was a paperweight.  Even after I paid them it was still a paperweight because of the not connecting to the server so the server could tell it that it could be a printer again......

I also have an all in one desktop that may not be the greatest, but it worked for what I needed at the time.  I now rarely even turn it on because of how slow it has gotten.  I consulted my cousin who is a tech person.  He thinks it could be brought back to life with a little more ram.  Trouble is, those all in one desk tops were built to be replaced, not upgraded.  At least I have my laptop, which those are the same way. 

[TheGlyphstone]

I have an Epson combo scanner-printer. I've never looked into 3rd party ink though, but I dont print very often either.

[Vekseid]

Consumer printers are in general horrid. Friend of mine had to dig into the registry to fix theirs and was like 'how do normal people deal with this?' The level of skill required is beyond most modern tech support. Just to make a printer work if something goes wrong. Why it is so complicated, I have no idea.

But if I ever get a printer again it will be laser.

[GloomCookie]

But if I ever get a printer again it will be laser.

I bought my mom a Brother a few years ago. Highly recommend. Other than connection issues which I think are because of where it is in my house compared to where I am, I've not had any real issue. I'm gonna try moving it this weekend.

[Greenthorn]

Consumer printers are in general horrid. Friend of mine had to dig into the registry to fix theirs and was like 'how do normal people deal with this?' The level of skill required is beyond most modern tech support. Just to make a printer work if something goes wrong. Why it is so complicated, I have no idea.

But if I ever get a printer again it will be laser.

Off topic, but I have a canon laser printer. Was the cheapest I could find because well... money. Daughter needed it to print powerpoints for college classes during covid. The best thing is we are able to use cheap Amazon cartridges without any problem whatsoever and those cartridges last forever <3 Best thing I bought during covid, aside from t.p.