Israel's conflict, and what it means for everyone else

[WhatLiesAbove]

So I already know that this is going to be a hot topic, so I will just ask that people PLEASE try to keep it civil. Everyone is entitled to their opinions on this, regardless of where you stand on the topic.

For the past several days tensions have gotten really high in Israel. Between police attacking worshippers at the Al-Aqsa Mosque, to Hamas and Islamic Jihad firing over a thousand rockets into Israel, to Israeli airstrikes. It is a bad situation all around, and as a Jewish person I am filled with anxiety and sadness at what has been happening.

Tonight things took a turn for the worst. For the first time since 2014, Israel invaded Gaza. Prime Minister Netanyahu (whom I personally think is an absolute pig) has already claimed that this will "take as long as it needs", indicating that this will not be a quick incursion but a prolonged invasion.

Despite everyone's feelings, there is no EASY solution to a problem that has gone on for as long as Israel has been a state...and for much longer since. Personally I think and hope that this senseless violence on BOTH sides will begin the path to a two-state solution. Both Israeli's and Palestinians have a right to exist in their own countries. However, it is going to require assistance from other countries in the region, whom seem to either profit or gain respect from extremists for pushing for further hostilities.

[Haloriel]

This entire situation hurts me and while on one hand I expected matters to flare back up as people were allowed more outside, on the other I’m seriously saddened. Sure, Netanyahu sucks. This has been a constant refrain, but he didn’t make people escalate. There’s personal choice as far as extremists go and there’s no truly negotiating with people that will coldly blow up cafes with as many civilians as possible. Israel doesn’t do that, even if there’s been bad choices. For people that have “nothing to lose” the rockets and other things probably are a required acceptance. And for the Israeli Arabs and sympathetic Palestinians? It’s scary for them, as well. We had a conversation and class with a few Israeli Arabs on mobile just weeks ago.

The point here though for me is that if this were any other country, we’d expect and not comment at them defending themselves as Israel is and does. I’m tired of the crude headlines that only tell one side. The Palestinians cause has multiple fractures and governments if you can even call them that. My Rabbi was actually in Jerusalem for a year recently and we regularly have exchange of personnel. This year we had a Mizrahi and and Ethiopian Jewish pair. Both of them are petrified for their families right now. I wish people would stop trying to cause these skirmishes. All of this started over legal eviction processes where there was no proof of residency and they waited until almost the entire population was vaccinated. The point is that bad people will use any impetus to advance their cause. And and all. Doesn’t matter who hurts or dies. I can only hope this doesn’t spiral out of control but so far the IDF is using very careful force to save as many lives and stop the violence quickly.

That you say it will require assistance from people in the region is my biggest takeaway. People across an ocean that have no ties at all won’t really understand in the same way. I hope if you have family in Israel they are safe, WLA.

[Haibane]

Tonight things took a turn for the worst. For the first time since 2014, Israel invaded Gaza. Prime Minister Netanyahu (whom I personally think is an absolute pig) has already claimed that this will "take as long as it needs", indicating that this will not be a quick incursion but a prolonged invasion.

I have been following this awful and harrowing series of events but I cannot so far find any reports of Israeli ground forces entering Gaza. The BBC reports categorically say they have not. My understanding is that the "attack into Gaza" announcement was only followed up by more airstrikes and naval bombardment. Its still awful but I do not think there has been a ground incursion.

What concerns me more is President Biden's statement that he thinks Israel's response has been "proportionate". How anyone can make a judgement on this conflict I do not know, there are clearly civilian deaths in Gaza despite Israel's claim to be only targeting Hamas installations. The problem being that Hamas appear to deliberately post teams of its forces inside civilian areas and even within civilian buildings, making innocent casualties certain. Is this a deliberate tactic by Hamas? I don't know but to me one way to lessen innocent deaths would be to separate military sites well away from civilian ones.

[gaggedLouise]

Today is the anniversary of their declaration of independence in 1948 - a true historical landmark. It is sad that the 73rd anniversary would come at a point when Israel and part of the Palestinian community are once again locked in combat and heading into a new war, or a civil war within Israel. This one's absolutely not going to remain confined to Gaza and the bordering region, and it could easily spread beyond Israel and Palestine as well.  With Lebanon and Syria as failed states, the Israeli giovernment itself living on slim margins and trouble in Egypt, the risk of a wider Middle Eastern war is plain to see.

I agree with Haibane that Israel's response has not been proportionate at all, it's been just as asymmetric and pounding as when Sharon was leading the country.

[Haibane]

Please don't get me wrong. I didn't say the Israeli response wasn't proportionate, I only wanted to point out that Biden could not possibly know it was, nor can any observer. How can one pass any kind of judgement of that nature in a war? Such things are only possible to determine, if at all, after the event. I think Biden would have done himself a big favour by not commenting either way on the conflict's events, but making a suitably humanitarian and empathic statement. To slip in a comment that places the USA on one side or other in this is a political mistake, both domestically and internationally.

[Iniquitous]

I am pro-Palestinian.  I feel for everyone that is losing loved ones and are in danger, but I think Israel needs to stay out of Palestinian territory. Period. As was told to me and I agree with, there is no two state solution. This will either be a constant war of attrition or the Palestinians are going to be wiped out completely.

[Haibane]

Whilst filming a live report near the Al-Shorooq building in Gaza on Wednesday 12th May 2021, Israeli airstrikes destroy the building behind the reporter.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-middle-east-57114168

Frightening stuff and if you are targeting buildings in such a densely populated area, civilian casualties are bound to happen.

[Fox Lokison]

I am pro-Palestinian.  I feel for everyone that is losing loved ones and are in danger, but I think Israel needs to stay out of Palestinian territory. Period. As was told to me and I agree with, there is no two state solution. This will either be a constant war of attrition or the Palestinians are going to be wiped out completely.

I agree on no two-state solution. For one, one state is a world nuclear power, with allies among other major nations, a strong military, and the ability to run roughshod over their neighbor if wanted. The other is Palestine. That incredible power imbalance already sets them up to fail. Add in ethnic and religious tensions, the instability in their part of the world, plus the sheer inability of Palestinians to even rebuild after homes have been bulldozed. What money, resources, etc do they have to rebuild? Who will help? Will it devolve into another proxy war, where major western powers use the conflict to forward their own interests?

Even if the people could get along - and I don't know if they could or not, there's MANY varying opinions - the conditions for a new state to emerge are far from optimal. Nation-building is difficult in the best of times.

And in addition; https://phys.org/news/2021-02-israelis-unwilling-two-state-solution.html

Researchers found that among Israeli Jews there are two major impediments to anything but the status quo: a lack of trust in Palestinian objectives and a general belief that none of the other alternatives are feasible. The lack of trust results in fear, xenophobia and a willingness to forgo basic principles of democracy when it comes to the rights of Palestinians.

Another key finding is that Palestinians will likely require international security guarantees for any peaceful resolution. Palestinians perceived all five alternatives as biased against them and primarily serving the interests of the more powerful Israelis.

They're just not at a place where a two-state system is an option. Not a practical, useable one that will provide peace and stability for the region, anyway. Unless we wanna slap a band-aid on a bullet hole and get surprised when the damn thing gets sepsis later.

[Fox Lokison]

I forgot to mention, but it's just as important - Any attempt to divide the land geographically will weaken Israel. That's not a question. Just about all proposals bite off huge, awkward chunks of the country and leave it smaller, more divided, and ultimately more vulnerable. They are already dealing with anti-Semitism in Islamic extremist movements, who are using the Palestine-Israel conflict to further their propaganda. HERE is a slightly outdated, but still useful understanding of the roots of anti-Semitism in Islamic extremism. I have a lot of complicated feelings about the state of Israel, but the fact that it's a Jewish state is pretty important to the guys running around attacking everyone. Extremists aren't gonna care if Israel cedes land to make Palestine - they're still targets. And honestly, given the history of extremists attacking Muslims as well, and occupying destabilized Muslim states, Palestine's gonna look pretty comfy pretty quick.

I'd say international assistance is the best move here, but given the wars in the Middle East that have only served to further destabilize the region, and make us enemies of half of it, I am not so quick to assume any more foreign interference is gonna do anything good.

[Skynet]

One thing that should be addressed but hasn’t really been talked about here or in general is in regards to evictions of Palestinians in East Jerusalem neighborhoods, which is one of the leading causes of the recent spate of violence. While one poster alleged it to be legal (and I cannot attest to this as IANAL), just because something is legal doesn’t make it moral or right. In the United States many slumlords and debt collection agencies got criticized for evicting people during the worst surges of COVID and at a time when many people lost their jobs due to lockdown. An increase in the homeless population will further expose people to the virus, and in the Palestinian Territories the virus is hardly being kept in check. Furthermore, the Israeli military protects religious settler communities that are making incursions into Palestinian lands, and in many cases are claiming the most prime territory for farming and water resources. Homelessness in general is awful no matter where you’re from, but it’s much worse in Palestine than it is in Israel; for many it is pretty much a death sentence. And in regards to the settler movement, the Israeli government is already disinclined to view Palestinians as legal residents in regards to their actions and policies, and under the Netanyahu administration they’re trying to push this farther. And given how many residential buildings end up collapsed by airstrikes, evicted Palestinians have even less guarantee of finding others to take them in when even standing homes are at stake of being destroyed.

Sources:

BBC: Covid-19: Palestinians lag behind in vaccine efforts as infections rise

Associated Press: Palestinians fear loss of family homes as evictions loom

Despite High Court Ruling to Evacuate Illegal Outposts | IDF Provides Security for All West Bank Settlements - Regardless of Legal Status

[RedRose]

I don't see a solution

[Skynet]

I don't see a solution

I don't know if this is towards Fox's post or mine. Long-term there are many solutions, but precious few are genuinely good for all parties involved.

But if in response to mine...short-term not evicting people from their homes would be a good means of deescalating things, here and in the future. And the Israeli government not legitimizing its worst far-right elements who don't actually care about their nation's safety and security.

That being said, that's not just solely on Israel. Here in the US evangelical Christians are the most ardent supporters of Israeli right-wing and settler groups in the belief that an apocalyptic Rapture will come only when Jews retake the Temple Mount. Even if one doesn't believe in the Rapture, what this translates to in practical terms is that evangelicals are against a peaceful resolution as it would delay the Second Coming of Jesus and actually want the violence to continue. While not the only supporters (the US also supports Israeli govt for being one of the few stable allies in the region) they are a huge force in politics.

[Fox Lokison]

There's also pinkwashing.

Pinkwashing portrays a democratic, liberal and gay-friendly image of Israel, supported by its relatively gay-friendly laws. As a counterpoint to this idyllic picture of Israel, the pinkwashing campaign also aims to paint a racist and false image of the monolithically homophobic, backward and barbaric Arab/Palestinian.

One of the techniques Israel uses in its pinkwashing campaigns is to fabricate myths about “saving” Palestinian queers from their homophobic and oppressive families and communities by bringing them to live in Tel Aviv – the ultimate gay haven. Tel Aviv may be a gay heaven for Jewish Israeli citizens, or even for the hundreds of visitors who engage in gay tourism. However, it is neither friendly nor a haven for Palestinian LGBTs and queers.

Link here

Almost all of the tactics being used by Israel's government, pinkwashing included, are used elsewhere in the world. This pinkwashing isn't benefitting Palestinian queers - it's just endangering them, and furthering the divide to project a palatable image.

[Kathadon]

I don't see a solution

Because the only solution is either genocide or forced resettlement. Which party gets which depends on what side you are on and geo-politics.

Hamas has zero interest in resettlement or integration because then they are out of power. Palestinian refugees want a right to return under a Free Palestine state, so they refuse integration. The surrounding Arab states have no interest in accepting Palestinian refugee's. Either because they WANT the cudgel of the Free Palestine cause to hit Israel and the U.S., or because they fear creating a new political faction within their own country. Which may be at odds with the current majority. ie: Sunni/Shia. Or they are Syria and are a warzone themselves.

So Israel has 60 year old rockets pointed at their citizens from inside a total land area the size of New Jersey. As an example imagine if Newark was launching rockets at New York City.

And Hamas has no qualms about using urban gorilla warfare and outright breaking international laws for non combatants. But Israel at least attempts to limit targets to military ones.

https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2021/05/hamas-scrambles-learn-how-israel-killed-its-military-leaders-hiding-secret

"A reliable source in al-Qassam Brigades told Al-Monitor that these Hamas leaders were targeted while they were inside a secret tunnel the movement had dug under Al-Thalathini Street in central Gaza City, one of the most high-end streets in the city."

[Fox Lokison]

And Hamas has no qualms about using urban gorilla warfare and outright breaking international laws for non combatants. But Israel at least attempts to limit targets to military ones.

Their attempts to limit are sure working well for the Palestinians. I get the sentiment, but overwhelmingly, it is Palestinians dying, and many at Israeli hands. It's not at all accurate to suggest Israel is in any way, trying to limit targets. They've opened fire on protests, gatherings, demonstrators, and civilians, inflicting mass injuries and in many cases, deaths. And that's not including the destruction of homes - a direct targeting of civilians - and resettling. There is really no way to argue Israel is trying to limit their targets to military ones, unless we're suggesting they bulldozed homes and attacked demonstrators for being Hamas agents. Hundreds and thousands of them, to be precise.

Some Sources

https://abcnews.go.com/International/100-civilians-killed-1000-wounded-israel-intensifies-attacks/story?id=77685310

So far, a total of 122 people, including 31 children and 20 women, have died in the Gaza Strip since tensions escalated Monday. At least 900 others have been injured, according to the Palestinian Ministry of Health.

Meanwhile, a total of seven people, including a soldier and a 6-year-old, were killed in Israel. More than 523 others have been wounded, according to the Israel Defense Forces. An eighth Israeli citizen, an 87-year-old woman, also died after falling while on her way to a bomb shelter, according to the Israeli emergency service.

https://www.vox.com/2014/7/14/5898581/chart-israel-palestine-conflict-deaths

You'll notice right away that the overwhelming majority of the deaths are Palestinian, and have been for the almost 14 years since B'Tselem began tracking. Overall, the group has recorded 8,166 conflict-related deaths, of which 7,065 are Palestinian and 1,101 Israeli. That means 87 percent of deaths have been Palestinian and only 13 percent Israeli. Put another way, for every 15 people killed in the conflict, 13 are Palestinian and two are Israeli. (Statistics for the past two months are from United Nations Office for the Coordinator of Humanitarian Affairs.)

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2020/country-chapters/israel/palestine#

Israeli forces stationed on the Israeli side of fences separating Gaza and Israel continued to fire live ammunition at demonstrators inside Gaza who posed no imminent threat to life, pursuant to open-fire orders from senior officials that contravene international human rights standards. According to the Palestinian rights group al-Mezan, Israeli forces killed 34 Palestinians and, according to Gaza’s Health Ministry, injured 1,883 with live ammunition during these protests in 2019 as of October 31.

Meanwhile, Israeli authorities destroyed 504 Palestinian homes and other structures in 2019 as November 11, the majority for lacking construction permits. Israel makes it nearly impossible for Palestinians to obtain such permits in East Jerusalem or in the 60 percent of the West Bank under its exclusive control (Area C). The demolitions displaced 642 people as of September 16, more than the total number of people displaced in 2018 (472), according to the UN Office of the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA). The Israeli rights group B’Tselem recorded more demolitions of Palestinian homes in East Jerusalem in 2019 than in any other year since at least 2004.

[Skynet]

I realized that in my previous post I didn't provide sources in regards to evangelical Christians and how right-wing Israeli groups actually make Israel a less safe place for their own people and Palestinians alike.

During the 90s Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by Yigal Amir, who believed that the PM's proposed peace deals at the Oslo accords were against God's will and threatened the settler movement.

The Jewish Underground is a terrorist group that had a conspiracy to blow up the Dome of the Rock, an Islamic shrine located in Jerusalem's Temple Mount as well as past spates of violence against Palestinian and Muslim civilians. They sought to lay the groundwork for the creation of a Third Temple. Although they were arrested and put on trial, many members were released on short sentences, with even the three life sentences commuted.

And in 2019, Netanyahu tried to rehabilitate the image of the Kach Party, an ultranationalist hate group. Said party is illegal in Israel and a terrorist organization, but like other such groups they have friendly support in Israel's far-right.

And covering US evangelicals, no single article can really scratch the surface, but this Vice magazine video is a good starting point

I'd also recommend the Gatekeepers, which is available on YouTube Movies. It conducted interviews with former high-ranking officials in Shin Bet. They naturally talk a lot about war with Palestine, but a significant portion of the movie also touches on the violent Jewish nationalist groups touched on above. Even worse said groups have more sympathetic support in Israel's military and intelligence agencies, meaning that unlike their Palestinian counterparts police and military forces look the other way or commute their sentencing.

Because the only solution is either genocide or forced resettlement. Which party gets which depends on what side you are on and geo-politics.

Hamas has zero interest in resettlement or integration because then they are out of power. Palestinian refugees want a right to return under a Free Palestine state, so they refuse integration. The surrounding Arab states have no interest in accepting Palestinian refugee's. Either because they WANT the cudgel of the Free Palestine cause to hit Israel and the U.S., or because they fear creating a new political faction within their own country. Which may be at odds with the current majority. ie: Sunni/Shia. Or they are Syria and are a warzone themselves.

So Israel has 60 year old rockets pointed at their citizens from inside a total land area the size of New Jersey. As an example imagine if Newark was launching rockets at New York City.

And Hamas has no qualms about using urban gorilla warfare and outright breaking international laws for non combatants. But Israel at least attempts to limit targets to military ones.

https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2021/05/hamas-scrambles-learn-how-israel-killed-its-military-leaders-hiding-secret

"A reliable source in al-Qassam Brigades told Al-Monitor that these Hamas leaders were targeted while they were inside a secret tunnel the movement had dug under Al-Thalathini Street in central Gaza City, one of the most high-end streets in the city."

The problem is that a lot of this can just as easily be applied to a pro-Palestine argument; replace 'rockets' with 'airstrikes.' And for breaking international law, the Israeli military hasn't exactly been careful in avoiding civilian casualties in Palestine, whether directly (as was witnessed during the 2014 Gaza offensive which left 1/3rd of residents homeless) or indirectly in the support of illegal settlements which end up pushing Palestinians out of their homes. And in my above links, the government hasn't done an historically good job of curbing terrorist groups within its own ranks (said rightwing groups infiltrating the IDF/Shin Bet to gain access to and steal military supplies and logistics).

[Fox Lokison]

To tag onto your US-Israel bit, Skynet, "Judeo-Christian values" as a concept plays a huge part in that as well, and the history of that phrase and concept is something worth looking into for those more curious about it. It's a bit of a sidetrack so I won't delve deep into it, but the Wikipedia article provides multiple good sources to look into about the matter. Sufficed to say, it's been less of a cohesive religious/cultural belief system, and more of a reaction against the "others" (soviets, Islam, the east, etc) that arose in the time before and during the world wars, which had foundations in the ancient East-West struggle.

[Kathadon]

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Their attempts to limit are sure working well for the Palestinians. I get the sentiment, but overwhelmingly, it is Palestinians dying, and many at Israeli hands. It's not at all accurate to suggest Israel is in any way, trying to limit targets. They've opened fire on protests, gatherings, demonstrators, and civilians, inflicting mass injuries and in many cases, deaths. And that's not including the destruction of homes - a direct targeting of civilians - and resettling. There is really no way to argue Israel is trying to limit their targets to military ones, unless we're suggesting they bulldozed homes and attacked demonstrators for being Hamas agents. Hundreds and thousands of them, to be precise.

Some Sources

https://abcnews.go.com/International/100-civilians-killed-1000-wounded-israel-intensifies-attacks/story?id=77685310


https://www.vox.com/2014/7/14/5898581/chart-israel-palestine-conflict-deaths



https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2020/country-chapters/israel/palestine#

Hamas fires dumb rockets that were old in the 80's. Which are by definition indiscriminate. They hit an Israeli school, which because of the violence was canceled. Three Israeli civilians, people sitting in their homes, were killed. And their homes were not next to military targets nor were their roofs being used as a rocket base.



Notice the difference in the picture? The LEFT is the Iron Dome rising up to shoot rockets down. The right is Hamas strikes. Not killing folks because Israel takes precautions and defends itself with the Iron Dome should not get Hamas good boy points. And Palestinian civilian deaths planned by Hamas's strategy should at best be mostly on Hamas. From one of the Vox articles you guys linked it even says this.

On the one hand, Hamas appears to be at best indifferent to the fact that, by firing rockets from heavily civilian areas, it knowingly invites or even desires Israeli strikes that will kill civilians. (Hamas is frequently accused of using civilians as human shields for this reason.)

Palestinian armed groups have stored munitions in and fired indiscriminate rockets from residential areas in the Gaza Strip," an Amnesty report noted recently. The groups have also "reportedly urged residents in some areas of the Gaza Strip not to leave their homes" after Israel had warned it would attack the area, all of which have the effect of putting Palestinians at risk in the fighting.

Can Israel "do better?" Maybe.

Is the Netanyahu government super right wing? Sure. And you know what this conflict has done for him, thrown him ANOTHER life line to stay in power.

But Hamas could stop propaganda that dehumanizes the Israelis to their children. Also the U.S. And gays. See "Tommorow's Pioneers"....

Or stop selling West Bank property to Israelis. Or wait, they can not. Even if they WANT to.

https://apnews.com/article/b3d04486484046a388b30356a92ff6fb
https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/palestinian-authority-youre-a-traitor-if-you-sell-land-to-the-jews-619368

One side here is more in the wrong than the other. It is basically 80% for Hamas and Palestine. 20% for Israel. The big difference and only major criticism from the West is that the Israeli's are better armed and defended so we do not want civilian casualties. Oh and Netanyahu is right wing. They could "do better" in targets. Have a "lighter touch." Despite the fact that Hamas leadership uses every man, woman, and child in Gaza as human shields. They were literally hiding in tunnels under the homes of their citizens when they were killed. Tunnels they thought would be death traps for Israeli soldiers if fighting ever gets to the point of house to house urban warfare.

So yeah the Israelis can be dicks. Yes they blow up the militarized homes of civilians. And innocent people die. But the other option in this fight wants, at best, the dissolution of the state of Israel and resettlement of the 9 million citizens (20% of which are Arabs, including Palestinian "traitors" who no doubt would be killed) to return the land to 4.5 million Palestinians. And at worst genocide. They do NOT want integration. They do NOT want to save their people by moving them from harms way. They do NOT want resettlement somewhere else.

I actually doubt Hamas wants the Free Independent Palestine of the two state solution either. Because if they got it then a lot of international financial aid would dry up (ie: Iran). They would end up a land locked, not even 3rd world country surrounded by Israel. And a pariah on the world stag if they kept their bellicose attitude toward Israel.

[Iniquitous]

So yeah the Israelis can be dicks. Yes they blow up the militarized homes of civilians. And innocent people die. But the other option in this fight wants, at best, the dissolution of the state of Israel and resettlement of the 9 million citizens (20% of which are Arabs, including Palestinian "traitors" who no doubt would be killed) to return the land to 4.5 million Palestinians. And at worst genocide. They do NOT want integration. They do NOT want to save their people by moving them from harms way. They do NOT want resettlement somewhere else.

Why on earth should Palestinians be forced to resettle? It was THEIR land pre-1948! They were not the aggressors to begin with - the Israelis were.  The Israelis treat them as second-class citizens ffs. So yes. Resettle the Israelites. Why not try the areas they keep forcing the Palestinians to. You know, those areas that aren't fit for people to live in.

[Fox Lokison]

A few things.

The conflation of Palestine and Hamas is concerning, especially when a war between Israel and Hamas, and a war between Israel and Palestine are remarkably different things, especially when it comes to armaments and who has them.

Second, where is the source that the majority of Palestinian deaths are at the hands of Hamas? You cite the article, but let's see what else it says.

Since 2005, the conflict has settled into a new pattern: fewer Palestinian deaths during "calm" months with occasional spikes into catastrophic numbers of Palestinians killed.

These spikes, of which the chart shows four since 2005, are all times when Israeli forces attacked Gaza, where Israel was targeting Hamas and other militant groups but also ended up killing large numbers of Palestinians civilians. In mid-2006, form June through November, Israeli forces invaded Gaza as part of Operation Summer Rains, which was sparked by Palestinian rocket fire into Israel and by the kidnapping of Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit, who was released five years later.

In late 2008 and early 2009, Israel again invaded Gaza as part of Operation Cast Lead, which caused only 13 Israeli deaths but ended with well over 1,000 Palestinians killed and devastated the Gaza Strip. Those two months were by far the deadliest for Palestinians since B'Tselem began tracking in 2000.

Israel launched extended bombing campaigns in Gaza in late 2012 and again this month, both of which have killed dozens of Palestinians. While Israeli strikes are targeting Hamas and other militant groups that are firing rockets into Israel, a local UN office estimated on Friday that 77 percent of people killed in Gaza up to that point were civilians, including 30 children. A separate UN agency estimated on Sunday that 70 percent of the killed were civilians, including 27 children.

If you're going to argue in any way that these actions are Hamas attacking Palestinians, and not the actions of Israel, then Israel is currently run by Hamas. That is the only logical end result of that claim. We have the evidence that Israel has killed and continues to kill civilians. That's not a debatable statement. I don't particularly care about one image, or one attack, so much as the complete and total effect of the conflict. I could just as easy pull pictures of Israel on the offensive, bombing these territories, and make some outlandish claim. It does not change the fact that indiscriminate bombing and violence by Israel has killed an outlandish amount of Palestinians. And to make this even worse;

hat number is even more staggering when you consider that there are about twice as many Israelis as there are Palestinians. This means, very roughly, that a Palestinian person has been 15 times more likely to be killed by the conflict than an Israeli person. Of course the conflict impacts Palestinians and Israelis far beyond just conflict deaths, but these statistics help show how utterly disproportionate the conflict has become in its toll.

Israel defending itself from a rocket attack is not some definitive proof of your argument, and neither is the empty claim of Hamas being accountable, when the evidence so far does not prove that. What it does prove is that you were incorrect - Israel is not making great strides to protect civilians. And frankly, it's pretty irrelevant that Hamas isn't doing that either - that's bad, and equating their strategies only puts Israel in a bad light.

And if we're going to go a little further on this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targeted_killings_by_Israel_Defense_Forces#Civilian_casualty_ratio

According to the Israeli Human Rights organization B'Tselem, which uses data independent of the Israeli military, Israeli targeted killings claimed 425 Palestinian lives between September 2000 and August 2011. Of these, 251 persons (59.1 percent) were the targeted individuals and 174 (40.9 percent) were civilian bystanders.

Almost half of the casualties in strikes targeted against militants and extremists killed civilians. That's an atrocious rate. Especially not in one event, but over eleven years.

Let's see what Amnesty International has to say.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/

The Israeli authorities arbitrarily detained in Israel thousands of Palestinians from the OPT, holding hundreds in administrative detention without charge or trial. Torture and other ill-treatment of detainees, including children, were committed with impunity. The authorities used a range of measures to target human rights defenders, journalists and others who criticized Israel’s continuing occupation of the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Syrian Golan Heights. Violence against women persisted, especially against Palestinian citizens of Israel. The authorities denied asylum-seekers access to a fair or prompt refugee status determination process. Conscientious objectors to military service were imprisoned.

Thousands of Hamas soldiers and journalists, then?

Israel demolished 848 Palestinian residential and livelihood structures in the occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem, displacing 996 people, according to the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA). Israeli authorities said many of the demolished buildings lacked Israeli-issued permits, which are virtually impossible for Palestinians to obtain, or were in closed military zones. The law of occupation prohibits such destruction unless necessary for military operations.

No, I reckon 848 homes and 996 people in that one specific area were all Hamas militants just WAITING to strike.

In other cases, Israel confiscated residential and livelihood structures, including some that were donated for humanitarian purposes. Israeli forces also punitively demolished at least six Palestinian homes, leaving 22 people, including seven children, homeless, according to B'Tselem. Punitive demolitions constitute collective punishment and are prohibited under international law.

Mrm, yes, that sounds very much like keeping it to military targets.

Israeli settler organizations initiated, with the support of the Israeli authorities, forcible evictions of Palestinians from their homes in East Jerusalem.

OCHA estimated in December that around 200 Palestinian households in the occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem, had eviction cases pending against them, placing 800 adults and children at risk of displacement.

Israeli authorities demolished at least 29 residential and livelihood structures that belonged to Bedouin citizens living in “unrecognized” villages in the Negev/Naqab, according to the Negev Coexistence Forum, an Israeli NGO.

Yes, because when you forcibly evict militants, you move in settlers to live in their homes.

Israeli military and police used unnecessary and excessive force during law enforcement activities, including search and arrest operations, and when policing demonstrations.

Military and security forces killed at least 31 Palestinians, including nine children, in the Gaza Strip and West Bank, according to OCHA. Many were unlawfully killed by live ammunition or other excessive force when posing no imminent threat to life. Some of the unlawful killings appeared to be wilful, which would constitute war crimes.

Israeli forces frequently used excessive force against protesters in Kufr Qadum who continued weekly protests against settlements and settlement expansion. According to OCHA, 214 protesters and bystanders were injured during the year.

On 15 February, Israeli forces shot and injured in the eye nine-year-old Malek Issa while he was returning home from school in the East Jerusalem neighbourhood of Issawiya. No clashes were recorded at the time, according to OCHA. Israeli forces were maintaining a violent and intense police operation in Issawiya as a form of collective punishment.

Israeli forces frequently opened fire on fishermen and farmers in Gaza. According to Al Mezan Center for Human Rights, 12 fishermen and five farmers were injured.

Do I even need to say it?

Israeli soldiers, police and ISA officers continued to torture and otherwise ill-treat Palestinian detainees, including children, with impunity. Reported methods included beating, slapping, painful shackling, sleep deprivation, use of stress positions and threats of violence against family members. Prolonged solitary confinement, sometimes lasting months, was commonly used as a punishment.

Israeli forces occasionally denied medical help for Palestinians injured during law enforcement activities.

Literal war crimes, even on prisoners of war.


You know what the rest of the world is seeing? Israel and Hamas duke it out, and the STATE of Israel - let me make that clear, I'm talking the government and military here - takes it out on civilians. Sometimes they get militants. A lot of times, they don't. You know where else we saw that? In the American wars in the Middle East. They were MASSIVE human rights violations, committed war crimes on an incredible scale, and pretty much never got held accountable. Human Rights Watch has on their summary of the conflict;

Israel’s maintains entrenched discriminatory systems that treat Palestinians unequally. Its over half-century-long occupation of the West Bank and Gaza involves systematic rights abuses, including collective punishment, routine use of excessive lethal force against protesters, and prolonged administrative detention without charge or trial for hundreds. It builds and supports illegal settlements in the occupied West Bank, expropriating Palestinian land and imposing burdens on Palestinians but not on settlers, restricting their access to basic services and making it nearly impossible for them to build in much of the West Bank without risking demolition. Israel’s more than decade-long closure of Gaza severely restricts the movement of people and goods, with devastating humanitarian impact. The Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza both sharply restrict dissent, arbitrarily arresting critics and torturing those in their custody

https://www.hrw.org/middle-east/north-africa/israel/palestine


Israel has every single right to exist as a free state. But it does not have the right to commit atrocities, and denying them by claiming they're just terrorists or justified in the name of bringing peace? That's the justification the United States cloaked itself in while decimating the Middle East. How well is that working out for those nations? Can Israel do better? Absolutely. You claim it's 80% Hamas and Palestine, and I find that utterly atrocious. If that is your argument, then Palestinian citizens deserve torture. They deserve illegal evictions. They deserve to be made homeless, to be harassed, to be discriminated against and targeted. Palestinian queers deserve to have their existence weaponized by a state that denies their culture. If your claims are that every home blown up or demolished is militarized, against all evidence collected by every non-Israeli agency, then I have news for you.

That's propaganda, and you're swallowing it whole.

But the other option in this fight wants, at best, the dissolution of the state of Israel and resettlement of the 9 million citizens (20% of which are Arabs, including Palestinian "traitors" who no doubt would be killed) to return the land to 4.5 million Palestinians. And at worst genocide. They do NOT want integration. They do NOT want to save their people by moving them from harms way. They do NOT want resettlement somewhere else.

Where's your source on that? Every source linked so far states that most Palestinians want a peaceful solution, NOT the destruction of Israel. Or is that more conflation of Palestine and Hamas again?

It's absolutely fucking ironic to claim all Palestinians want to genocide Jews, while actively denying Israeli war crimes and human rights violations against civilians.

Not gonna be civil about that, it's fuckin' disgusting.

Why on earth should Palestinians be forced to resettle? It was THEIR land pre-1948! They were not the aggressors to begin with - the Israelis were.  The Israelis treat them as second-class citizens ffs. So yes. Resettle the Israelites. Why not try the areas they keep forcing the Palestinians to. You know, those areas that aren't fit for people to live in.

By this logic, they should be forced to resettle because they're all violent Hamas members or sympathizers who deserve what they get and are seeking genocide.

Jesus fuck, talk about brain worms.

[WhatLiesAbove]

Why on earth should Palestinians be forced to resettle? It was THEIR land pre-1948! They were not the aggressors to begin with - the Israelis were.  The Israelis treat them as second-class citizens ffs. So yes. Resettle the Israelites. Why not try the areas they keep forcing the Palestinians to. You know, those areas that aren't fit for people to live in.

I’m going to get into history here.

Palestinians LIVED in the area that is now known as Israel (and was then Palestine) pre-1948. What else happened pre-1948? Well, there was a big war in Europe, with some crazy German dude killing over 12 million people on a whim. Over half of those were Jews.

We call it the Holocaust.

The area that was Palestine was controlled...NOT by the Palestinian people...but by the British. It was a British Territory. Before that it was Ottoman. Before that Roman (I believe).

The old League of Nations, renamed the United Nations, needed a place to put Jews. No other country in Europe or North America wanted them. Nor Africa. South America was a haven for escaped Nazis. Asia was broke and in the beginnings of a new war thanks to Stalin. Australia said no.

The men of the UN back then went biblical. They sent the Jews to Palestine, called it Israel, and gave them a few surplus weapons. From that, the Jews made their own country. Since it’s founding it has fought for survival. What’s the phrase? “To the conquerors go the spoils”. Israelis took over the land, and turned a desert into a green oasis.

Kick out the Israelis? This is hopefully a knee-jerk reaction. Because it’s a nonsense answer. There are many other countries that are profiting from the deaths of Palestinians in Gaza because a TERRORIST GROUP runs the government. Hamas’ only goal is the death of Israel. Full stop. That is why despite millions of tons of humanitarian aid coming in, Palestinians in Gaza still suffer. Does a good portion of aid not make it? No...because Israel is trying to ensure they don’t get attacked. But much still does.

Palestinians absolutely have a right to defend themselves. There is a two state solution...but it is going to require the ouster of both Hamas AND Netanyahu. Assholes and extremists can’t negotiate.

[Chulanowa]

I forgot to mention, but it's just as important - Any attempt to divide the land geographically will weaken Israel. That's not a question. Just about all proposals bite off huge, awkward chunks of the country and leave it smaller, more divided, and ultimately more vulnerable

So here's the thing.

In 1948, when it declared independence, Israel also declared borders. It's essential to being a nation-state, having borders. Those borders mirrored those proposed by the 1947 partition plan. This was affirmed by Israel a year later when it sought to join the United Nations.

Now the thing about borders is... you can't just change them. You can't march into a place go "mine now" and have it be so. This isn't the dark ages (and even back then things were a lot more complicated than rule of might.) To gain territory under the modern international system, you have to engage in diplomacy with the entity that currently holds that territory (and no, the entity does not have to also be a nation-state.) You have to secure a treaty that formally and legally cedes the territory to you.

Israel has, of course, never once had territory ceded to it via treaty with territorial holders. ergo, best case scenario for Israel is that Israel's borders are still those it declared to the world in 1948, and everything beyond those bounds belongs to someone that is not Israel. everything Israel occupies beyond those boundaries is, in all fact, occupied territory. (worst case for Israel; the entire span is occupied, owing to the lack of a formal cession of territory to Israel in the first place to secure its claims in '48; this gets into some WW1-era treaties with the Ottoman Empire though and that's a weird and murky patch)

And of course, I think we all understand that Palestine isn't going to cede that territory. And Israel shows no signs of ending its occupation. So I hate to be the fart in the elevator, but the 'two-state solution" is dead. has been since before 181, in fact.

What needs to be figured out is not how to achieve two states, but how the world is goign to step up to protect the Palestinian people during an inevitable slide into a single colonized state?

[Fox Lokison]

I agree with you, Chulanowa, and any map proposed in a multi-state plan involves some incredibly awkward borders that make Pakistan and India look like a dream. It'd be partition 2.0, judging from how it looks. Conflict, tensions, mass displacement, a need to restructure a new government, one nation with significantly more power than the other... Not good. Idealistically, 2-nation ideas seem like the best way. But I don't see a way to do them without causing more strife.

[Chulanowa]

The area that was Palestine was controlled...NOT by the Palestinian people...but by the British. It was a British Territory. Before that it was Ottoman. Before that Roman (I believe).

Palestine was never a British Territory. I know, it's easy to just assume that every chunk of dirt the British sat on in the 19th and 20th centuries was "British territory," and in large part that's true. But not always, and the Mandates of Palestine, Transjordan, and Mesopotamia are great examples.

When the ottoman empire surrendered in WW1, it formally ceded all of its Arab-speaking holdings... not to anyone in the Allied Powers, but to the people who lived in those territories themselves. it was a diplomatic way of saying "fuck off and die, please" after the Arab revolts against the empire during the war.

Since this created a great deal of unorganized, stateless territory, the League of Nations came up with the Mandate system; the United Kingdom and France would both be entrusted to govern these territories in trust of the people there, until such a point that proper states and govenrments were organized. The Mandates very explicitly did not grant any territorial rights to the British or French. These European states had the right to appoint governors who could create cabinets, pass laws, manage taxation, all of that stuff. But the territory itself belonged to the people being governed, not the governors.

Of course this isn't to say that either the UK or France really played by the rules. France basically ignored the rules entirely and gave a chunk of the Syrian Mandate to Turkey, and split off Lebanon to create a friendly little maronite Christian Franco-Arabic country. The UK did its level best to stamp out any and all efforts for self-rule by the Palestinians, Jordanians, and Iraqis (Churchill actually advocated mass genocide against the Mesopotamian Arabs after one such effort, swell guy.)

So, from at least 1917, Palestine was a non-sovereign territory owned by the people of Palestine and managed by a governor appointed by the British parliament.

[Kathadon]

Rehashing ancient history does nothing. Israel exists today and Palestine does not, legally. And no, individual states recognizing Palestine as a state does not count. That is itself, in fact, a violation of international law.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

There's also pinkwashing.

Link here

Almost all of the tactics being used by Israel's government, pinkwashing included, are used elsewhere in the world. This pinkwashing isn't benefitting Palestinian queers - it's just endangering them, and furthering the divide to project a palatable image.

While actively denying Israeli war crimes and human rights violations against civilians.

Not gonna be civil about that, it's fuckin' disgusting.

While I forget actively denying anything I will simply quote a "Joint Declaration by International Law Experts on Israel’s Gaza Offensive":

we feel the intellectual and moral duty to denounce the grave violations, mystification and disrespect of the most basic principles of the laws of armed conflict and of the fundamental human rights of the entire Palestinian population committed during the ongoing Israeli offensive on the Gaza Strip. We also condemn the launch of rockets from the Gaza Strip, as every indiscriminate attack against civilians, regardless of the identity of the perpetrators, is not only illegal under international law but also morally intolerable. However, as also implicitly noted by the UN Human Rights Council in its Resolution of the 23th [sic] July 2014, the two parties to the conflict cannot be considered equal, and their actions – once again – appear to be of incomparable magnitude.

So criticize Israel's human right's abuses. March about war crimes. Great. We are talking about a gorilla war in an urban environment against a nuclear armed state backed up by THE technological superpower. Unwinnable. Desperate. And open to abuse on both sides.

And Pinkwashing from a BDS group blog post?

How about at least a somewhat unbiased organization? Yes let's see what Amnesty International has to say. I am sure Palestine is a model nation. Not routinely also using torture or commiting human rights violations.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/palestine-state-of/report-palestine-state-of/

lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and intersex (LGBTI) people
The civil society organization alQaws for Sexual and Gender Diversity in Palestinian Society reported that LGBTI people continued to be denied the freedom to exercise their rights, even though consensual same-sex relationships are not criminalized in the West Bank. Meanwhile, Section 152 of the Penal Code applicable in Gaza criminalizes consensual same-sex sexual activity and makes it punishable by up to 10 years’ imprisonment.

Palestinian queers deserve to have their existence weaponized by a state that denies their culture.

The culture that denies them the right to be LGBT by prison? Okay.... By a BDS group that in the blog post you linked complains that Israel will not let them speak in Palestinian schools or provide them with funding...huh? Go figure. I actually read that post, and found it at best a personal antidote. From someone that claims on Twitter that Israel is ethnic cleansing folks by.... bulldozing houses? That is a new take on that definition I am unaware of.  I wonder why Israel will not fund their group? Must be that anti-Palestinian "colonial" apartheid racism. All the big bad no no words. Good thing she got to go to college in, LGBT hot spot, Tel Aviv. Israeli money well spent.

If you're going to argue in any way that these actions are Hamas attacking Palestinians, and not the actions of Israel, then Israel is currently run by Hamas. That is the only logical end result of that claim. We have the evidence that Israel has killed and continues to kill civilians. That's not a debatable statement. I don't particularly care about one image, or one attack, so much as the complete and total effect of the conflict. I could just as easy pull pictures of Israel on the offensive, bombing these territories, and make some outlandish claim. It does not change the fact that indiscriminate bombing and violence by Israel has killed an outlandish amount of Palestinians. And to make this even worse;

The total effect of the conflict? Hamas is placing their civilians in harm's way. They do not allow them to flee areas Israel has announced they are going to strike. This is a known FACT. An announcement that I am not even sure they HAVE to make by any international law. They build militarized tunnels under their homes. Also a known FACT. All of their homes? Probably not. But there are MILES of them. At their peak, the tunnels reportedly funneled some $700 million into Gaza’s economy and provided employment for as many as 7,000 people. The lucrative but perilous traffic is thought to continue today through about 500 tunnels. Hundreds of miles of tunnels which are by definition military objectives. FACT.

Military objectives are targets that by their nature, location, purpose, or use make an effective contribution to military action and whose total or partial destruction, capture, or neutralization offers a definite military advantage to the attacker in the circumstances ruling at the time. People are military objectives if they are enemy combatants or if they directly or actively participate in hostilities. Things like artillery are military objectives because they contribute to military action by their very nature. Places like bridges, tunnels, or roads are military objectives if they provide a military advantage at the time-for example, providing a resupply route to the enemy. Conversely, objects that are purely civilian in nature offer no military advantage and are, therefore, not valid targets by law. But when Hamas run their resupply and bunker tunnels under everyone, Hamas, by definition, commit the war crime first.

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/7/23/gaza-undergroundhamastunnels.html

Is Hamas outright putting guns to their citizen's heads and pulling the trigger? No. They are instead forcing them to stay in homes THEY made military targets. As part of their unspoken strategy to get civilian's killed. This works to make the other Arab states and the West feel empathy for their unwinnable cause. Also this riles up their citizens who now must avenge the blood of the Martyrs. So Hamas stays in power offering that revenge.

As to years of figures of civilian causalities, I will be frank. We have VASTLY improved our smart armaments since 2000 to 2011. But they are still bombs, firing at underground targets, and that means collateral damage. Allowing your civilians to flee areas marked for bombardment or, you know, not militarizing miles of tunnels under neighborhoods would do wonders to lesson that number. Which the world might appreciate, and might mean some homes might not have to be bulldozed. But that would mean Hamas would be wiped out. So instead they rely on folks that go "think of the civilians" to provide them cover. All in the name  of some grand propaganda war to attempt to tie Israel's hands even more behind their back.

And here is a poll about the best proposal of the majority of Palestinians from 2019. Sorry I cannot find hard numbers on the worst, and how many actually want genocide. Maybe we can extrapolate from how many deny the holocaust and hold anti-semetic beliefs from the ADL?

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/half-palestinians-still-want-all-palestine-most-would-compromise-less
https://global100.adl.org/country/west-bank-and-gaza/2014

Similarly, when asked about ending the conflict with Israel permanently, only a minority would approve a two-state solution: 30 percent of West Bankers, and 42 percent of Gazans. Instead, the narrow majority in both territories–56 percent in the West Bank, and 54 percent in Gaza, say “the conflict should not end, and resistance should continue until all of historic Palestine is liberated.” This marks a hardening of West Bank views compared to previous polls. And under half of the Palestinian public say “we should recognize that we will never defeat Israel, and that fighting just makes things worse”: 40 percent of West Bankers, and 49 percent of Gazans.

Why on earth should Palestinians be forced to resettle? It was THEIR land pre-1948! They were not the aggressors to begin with - the Israelis were.  The Israelis treat them as second-class citizens ffs. So yes. Resettle the Israelites. Why not try the areas they keep forcing the Palestinians to. You know, those areas that aren't fit for people to live in.

If by some miracle we could snap our fingers and have this be accepted? Simple logistics? It is far easier and less expensive to move 4.5 million, that mostly (56%) live in poverty, than 9+ million. The big question is WHERE they would be sent and who would accept them.

Or they can simply make actual efforts to integrate. Joining the other 20% Arab population of Israel and becoming the second largest population block. From the above 2019 poll:

Moreover, 70 percent of West Bankers and Gazans–and 80 percent of East Jerusalem Palestinians–agree at least “somewhat” that “Israel will never accept a one-state solution that gives the Palestinians equal rights, even if they become a clear majority someday.”

I will not hold my breath.