What's in the News? 2.0

[Oniya]

I'm willing to bet that if you blindfolded me and handed me either one, I could identify it.  I've never held either one before.

[Fox Lokison]

Just my two cents on the matter... There's a big difference in weight. As well as shape and function, I might add. Where you hold it, the shape, the weight, the grip, even down to the pressure needed to fire the weapon. It's all very different, in enough ways that a trained officer should know the difference. And if they can't, in the rush and the heat, with adrenaline coursing through them, they aren't cut out to be a cop. Because that's the everyday reality of the job.

For reference,

This

is how a sidearm is held.

This

is how a taser is held. Notable difference in what the finger is pressed against, the shape of the weapon, and the grip. They're not all that different to a layman, but having held both, can safely say, it's still a very different feeling in your palm. Tasers are also not traditionally kept side by side to a gun, so unless he usually carried a taser in that position and was unused to having a sidearm there instead - as someone like a former security guard might - it's an additional layer of "wtf" to this whole affair.

In addition - Requirements for being a cop in the city. Since that feels more than a little relevant, here.

[Beorning]

The explanation for the shooting is bizarre. On the other hand, if we dismiss the explanation, then the implications are horrifying.

I mean, the officer who shot Wright has, as I've heard, about 25 years of experience. So, if this *was* an accident, then... what does this mean? That an experienced officer couldn't tell what weapon she was firing? I don't get it. A Glock and a taser should immediately feel different to her - doesn't a taser have a plastic cover, for once? It does seem hard to believe.

On the other hand, if we dismiss the possibility of a mistake - the officer was heard to repeatedly shout "Taser" on the bodycam video. So, if she gave a taser warning and, then, knowingly fired a Glock... that would mean she either changed her mind in the matter of seconds or she knowingly gave a false warning to cover her use of a deadly weapon. That would make it... a deliberate murder?

Seriously, WTF happened there?

[Oniya]

The explanation for the shooting is bizarre. On the other hand, if we dismiss the explanation, then the implications are horrifying.

I mean, the officer who shot Wright has, as I've heard, about 25 years of experience. So, if this *was* an accident, then... what does this mean? That an experienced officer couldn't tell what weapon she was firing? I don't get it. A Glock and a taser should immediately feel different to her - doesn't a taser have a plastic cover, for once? It does seem hard to believe.

On the other hand, if we dismiss the possibility of a mistake - the officer was heard to repeatedly shout "Taser" on the bodycam video. So, if she gave a taser warning and, then, knowingly fired a Glock... that would mean she either changed her mind in the matter of seconds or she knowingly gave a false warning to cover her use of a deadly weapon. That would make it... a deliberate murder?

Seriously, WTF happened there?

It does seem to come down to either gross incompetence (which should take that officer off the force) or deliberate murder (which should also take that officer off the force.) 

[Regina Minx]

Incredible that their chosen line of defense is, "we cannot competently operate firearms."

[Fox Lokison]

The explanation for the shooting is bizarre. On the other hand, if we dismiss the explanation, then the implications are horrifying.

I mean, the officer who shot Wright has, as I've heard, about 25 years of experience. So, if this *was* an accident, then... what does this mean? That an experienced officer couldn't tell what weapon she was firing? I don't get it. A Glock and a taser should immediately feel different to her - doesn't a taser have a plastic cover, for once? It does seem hard to believe.

On the other hand, if we dismiss the possibility of a mistake - the officer was heard to repeatedly shout "Taser" on the bodycam video. So, if she gave a taser warning and, then, knowingly fired a Glock... that would mean she either changed her mind in the matter of seconds or she knowingly gave a false warning to cover her use of a deadly weapon. That would make it... a deliberate murder?

Seriously, WTF happened there?

Some of the potential explanations being offered so far

I dont know the exact model Minneapolis cops use, but yeah, tasers have a plastic cover. Blocky, too.

[Cuttlephobia]

Wow I really wish my state could get in the news for anything else.

[Haibane]

The barring of news reporters from a police press conference is very worrying. Isn't there some reasonable freedom of the press law being broken there?

[Haibane]

Some of the potential explanations being offered so far

Some thoughts on that (quotes from Fox Lokison's linked article):

HOW FREQUENTLY DOES THIS HAPPEN?

Experts agree this is a real but very rare occurrence that probably happens less than once a year nationwide. A 2012 article published in the monthly law journal of Americans for Effective Law Enforcement documented nine cases in which officers shot suspects with handguns when they said they meant to fire stun guns dating back to 2001.

I wonder if data/statistics exist for tasers being fired when the intention was to fire a handgun?

WHY DOES IT HAPPEN?

Reasons cited include officer training, the way they carry their weapons and the pressure of dangerous, chaotic situations. To avoid confusion, officers typically carry their stun guns on their weak sides — or their nondominant hand — and away from handguns that are carried on the side of their strong arms. This is the case in Brooklyn Center, where Gannon, the police chief, said officers are trained to carry a handgun on their dominant side and their stun gun on their weak side.

Bill Lewinski, an expert on police psychology and founder of the Force Science Institute in Mankato, Minnesota, has used the phrase “slip and capture” errors to describe the phenomenon. Lewinski, who has testified on behalf of police, has said officers sometimes perform the direct opposite of their intended actions under stress — their actions “slip” and are “captured” by a stronger response. He notes that officers train far more often on drawing and firing their handguns than they do on their stun guns.

Seems like there is a fair argument for reversing the standard positions of the two weapons then, so if a mistake is made the less lethal weapon is accidentally used.

Also, police training and police mentality. Again. Both are too aggressive, fire-arm focussed and military styled.

[Regina Minx]

Also, and maybe this is just a wacky idea. Maybe traffic enforcement and routine patrol shouldn't require police officers to carry firearms.

[Beorning]

Also, and maybe this is just a wacky idea. Maybe traffic enforcement and routine patrol shouldn't require police officers to carry firearms.

I don't know. Patrol / traffic officers over here carry handguns and this stuff doesn't happen...

[Kurogane]

I suspect U.S. officers can hide behind "lack of training" or "reacting in the heat of the moment," but ultimately, to me, it seems a matter of simply lacking the valuation of human life---if the perpetrator is a person of color. The moment police confirm that it is a minority, their human value goes down and all bets are off. They give themselves license to go Weapons Free. Deploy deadly fire at will.  So if the perpetrator makes any slight moves or conspicuous gesture, the officer feels empowered and obligated to protect the fine, white citizenry and unleash lethal power.

Now, replace the routine stoppage with a white man or woman. Would officers act so aggressively in the U.S.?  Statistics show otherwise.

[Kathadon]

The Mayor and City Council fired the black City Manager because he said that the officer was entitled to due process in an obvious accidental discharge and appear to be ready to fire the police chief as well. Instead the Chief and the officer in question both resigned today.

https://www.startribune.com/brooklyn-center-mayor-takes-on-oversight-of-police-department-fires-city-manager/600045002/

https://www.startribune.com/brooklyn-center-police-chief-officer-who-shot-daunte-wright-resign/600045468/

At a virtual council workshop, Council Member Kris Lawrence-Anderson said she voted to remove the city manager because she feared for her property and retaliation by protestors if she had voted to keep him.

"He was doing a great job. I respect him dearly," she said. "I didn't want repercussions at a personal level."

This is a bad precedent.

[Haibane]

That isn't good enough. Mistakes like this one that cost people's lives should never be made. There is NO excuse for confusing two weapons.

[Fox Lokison]

I suspect U.S. officers can hide behind "lack of training" or "reacting in the heat of the moment," but ultimately, to me, it seems a matter of simply lacking the valuation of human life---if the perpetrator is a person of color. The moment police confirm that it is a minority, their human value goes down and all bets are off. They give themselves license to go Weapons Free. Deploy deadly fire at will.  So if the perpetrator makes any slight moves or conspicuous gesture, the officer feels empowered and obligated to protect the fine, white citizenry and unleash lethal power.

Now, replace the routine stoppage with a white man or woman. Would officers act so aggressively in the U.S.?  Statistics show otherwise.

There's something to be said about perception of a threat. Police are taught that they are at risk, at all times, and specific groups or areas pose higher risks to them. Whether that's true or not, well, that doesn't really factor in when you've got someone trained to see a black man as potentially armed and violent, while a white man is just another citizen - unless he's acting belligerent. It's literally trained into them, that paranoia and racism.

[Andol]

There's something to be said about perception of a threat. Police are taught that they are at risk, at all times, and specific groups or areas pose higher risks to them. Whether that's true or not, well, that doesn't really factor in when you've got someone trained to see a black man as potentially armed and violent, while a white man is just another citizen - unless he's acting belligerent. It's literally trained into them, that paranoia and racism.

Hey Fox could I have some evidence that police training teaches them to see black men as potentially armed and violent? I mean there are cops of all races and if they saw that type of training, one would feel that it could turn out problematic. Maybe I am just misunderstanding what you mean, which is why I am asking.

[Oniya]

I've seen far too many situations where a person of color is put through a hostile interrogation or worse, when a white person is treated with kid-gloves for the same or worse behavior.  You have only to look at the recent differences between white people bringing actual weapons onto government property for a protest and being allowed to go about their business; and unarmed minorities getting beaten and/or shot at a traffic stop.  There's a reason for that somewhere, and it's either the culture of the people making the distinction, or they are being trained into making that distinction.

[Fox Lokison]

Hey Fox could I have some evidence that police training teaches them to see black men as potentially armed and violent? I mean there are cops of all races and if they saw that type of training, one would feel that it could turn out problematic. Maybe I am just misunderstanding what you mean, which is why I am asking.

Here is a link, Andol.

But since you've opened this door... I would caution you against using "there are cops of all races" as any sort of reply to "implicit bias exists in training". I'm not sure if you're aware, but there is not some silent code between all black people. Black people are not a monolith. Not in a single community, not in a single neighborhood, and certainly not in a city, county, state, or nation. Neither is any other racial or ethnic group, or any other group for that matter. I'm not sure if you're aware, but there is no "seeing that kind of training." No one is out there going "BLACK MEN ARE VIOLENT CRIMINALS". They're going "black neighborhoods have much higher crime rates, black men are committing the violent crimes in our area." These are biases that you learn. That we all learn. When I say "ghetto", most Americans are going to think "black", "gangs", and "gun violence". When I say "trailer park", many Americans are going to think "white" "trailer trash", and "drugs". I would caution you from taking such a simplistic approach to the issue. I would encourage you to do your own research, as well as just asking me for a link. If something sounds like it doesn't make sense, it's a good idea to look into it and learn.

[Fox Lokison]

And in addition, if we're going to discuss the fallacy of "members of that group wouldn't tolerate bigotry against the group" - cops who grow up IN troubled neighborhoods full of people who look like them, being violent, doing drugs, and generally doing the very things people are stereotyped as doing, they carry that with them when they become cops. They are usually witnesses to the worst their community has to offer. They can be THE MOST BIGOTED. They have seen their group - no matter the race, as this impacts white people as well - doing the things they are vehemently against. The argument that race would somehow be a factor falls flat.

A young white man growing up in a poor white neighborhood full of drug abuse, domestic abuse, and violence, is going to see those things every time he sees people who look like those he grew up with - because that is how human beings work. We see our experiences reflected onto others who LOOK like the people we knew, or on neighborhoods and places that resemble where we came from or where we saw this. There's bias against poor people - a lot of cops are pretty damn poor. There's bias against black people - plenty of cops are black. There's bias against drug and alcohol users - the rate of drug and alcohol use in the police force is not small. There's bias against domestic abusers - domestic abuse rates by cops are record highs.

I wanna nip that particular misconception at the bud. It's really, really dangerous to fall into the trap of 'well, because they're a member of this group, they wouldn't tolerate hatred against this group'. That idea of false unity, and the misconception of what bias looks like, really do a lot of damage, particularly in these conversations. Because they are blinders. They derail a conversation into "can a group be bigoted against itself" and "can a group hold bias against itself" rather than looking at the actual facts of bias, violence, abuse, corruption, and rampant issues in the police force. It's also a form of tokenizing minority cops as somehow the bastions against bias, like being a member of a minority would immediately make you a shield against bigotry towards others.

All in all, those kinds of statements are used to shut down conversations about the above issues. The facts of the matter are simple. People are dying. Police are not being held accountable. There is corruption, there is a thin blue line shielding these cops from repercussions, and there is concerted effort to keep and maintain the system we have, despite it actively executing innocent people on no basis. There are no excuses. There can be no more "well it doesn't make sense that there would be a bias" when we are witnessing the biases killing people. As Oniya mentioned - there is a stark disparity, and we only have to look to see it. I myself was armed, openly admitting to having an episode of psychosis, and was allowed to retrieve my own knife from my own vehicle, with an officer within reach of being harmed, because he took a look at me and decided I was not a threat. It's not that difficult for me to believe this same officer could look at someone else, and read a threat, even if there wasn't any. I was a threat to him. But because of my appearance, because of where I live, and because of a myriad of factors, he discounted that, and let me give him not one, but two blades, including a hunting knife.

Bias exists. That's not a question, and not a debate. The debate is, what are we going to do about it?

[Haibane]

Racism in the Metropolitan (i.e. London) police.

At least here we deal with it correctly. Though only sometimes.

[Sara Nilsson]

To add to the list of what black men can't do in this country: walk.

https://apnews.com/article/race-and-ethnicity-us-news-columbia-south-carolina-29886e0c4e4457e7b237a62f9e7af8c0

The video is really hard to watch, not because of violence or anything but to see such raw naked racist hatred on display.

[Skynet]

US to withdraw all troops from Afghanistan by September 11th, 2021.

I'll believe it when I see it, but if this happens for real then this will be very good news.

[Oniya]

I have to admit, I'm a bit amused by the deadline.

[Lexandria]

I have to admit, I'm a bit amused by the deadline.

20 years exactly

[Haibane]

Tensions increase in eastern Ukraine with grandstanding by Putin and a call from Biden requesting talks that the Russian state media is calling a "sign of weakness".

The way Russia has bullied its way into eastern Ukraine is appalling. They have issued many thousands of former Ukrainian citizens with Russian passports which grants them a pretext for protecting "their" citizens.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56746144