You are either not logged in or not registered with our community. Click here to register.
 
December 05, 2016, 09:08:12 PM

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Click here if you are having problems.
Default Wide Screen Beige Lilac Rainbow Black & Blue October Send us your theme!

Hark!  The Herald!
Holiday Issue 2016

Wiki Blogs Dicebot

Author Topic: JK Rowling and Cultural Appropriation  (Read 4683 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Anteros

Re: JK Rowling and Cultural Appropriation
« Reply #75 on: April 01, 2016, 10:43:42 PM »
I think we are not really managing to convey our respective points to each other. :-(

If one group start with a basic advantage (like living in a society crafted by them, for them) while the others not only don't have that advantage, but also have to fight supplementry disadvantages the first group doesn't have to contend to, then treating them all the same way will obviously favor the first group. Equal treatment with unequal circumstances is not equality.

If people from group A are consistently 2 or 3 times less likely than people from group B to land a job, rent a place, get a loan or whatever, while being just as qualified or wealthy, are the 2 groups equal? Should they just continue on like this because the disparity doesn't result from a law?
Shouldn't something be made to rectify the obvious imbalance?
I'm not talking about restitution. If we went there, the truly just thing to do would be something like paying a rent to the Native people for the American territory, and people would blow a gasket if such a thing was actually proposed.
I'm  talking about things like those quotas you mentioned. It is a fact that for a same level of education, non-white students are less likely to be accepted in a college, that non-white workers are less likely to get a job, etc... There is a disparity. If you just let things as they are, then of course, this disparity won't disappear. Making the school system more efficient won't help minority kids get in, because it's not their performances that hold them back, but the prejudice of the society they live in. Even when minority kids manage to enter and graduate college, the disparity remains because their talents will be seen as not worth as much. Being competent is useless when you cannot use those competences and/or benefit from them. Whitewashing doesn't happen because of  lack of good actors from minorities, for example.

All of this come from prejudice, prejudice that is reinforced by things like not bothering to look beyond the stereotypes that are transmitted by jokes, novels, movies and other medias.








Offline TairisTopic starter

Re: JK Rowling and Cultural Appropriation
« Reply #76 on: April 01, 2016, 11:43:40 PM »
If one group start with a basic advantage (like living in a society crafted by them, for them) while the others not only don't have that advantage, but also have to fight supplementry disadvantages the first group doesn't have to contend to, then treating them all the same way will obviously favor the first group. Equal treatment with unequal circumstances is not equality.

See I'd be much more inclined to go with this argument if someone could reliably produce actual examples where individuals in modern day are being turned down for jobs and opportunities because of their race. I'm not saying it never happens, as I said before there will always be racists in the world, but having been on the hiring side of things for more than a few years in various positions the line of 'you don't want to hire me because I'm *insert minority here* always seems to ignore the fact that the person that wasn't hired had a terrible resume, poor interview, or lacked necessary experience.

Why would any profit minded company turn down an employee based on race if they had a necessary skill that another applicant lacked? The only time I can really see it being a major factor is non-skilled labor: retail etc where you don't need any defined skill. Thus most of the hiring process is entirely on the hiring supervisors opinion of people rather than qualifications.

The only other scenario is the case where you end up with multiple candidates with equal skill, experience, and interview performance. In those scenarios? You're always going to encounter some bias which is human nature. We are wired to want to associate with similar people. If a black guy and a white guy are 100% equally qualified then there is a chance the white guy might get the nod over the black guy because the decision maker isn't even consciously aware of their own bias.

But the idea that there is some 'old white racist' sitting in a room throwing minorities resumes in the trash? I've certainly never seen anything of the sort. And any major corporation isn't likely to stay in business long doing that.

Quote
If you just let things as they are, then of course, this disparity won't disappear. Making the school system more efficient won't help minority kids get in, because it's not their performances that hold them back, but the prejudice of the society they live in.

Really? Is it? Because if I look at various sources:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/09/03/sat-scores-drop-and-racial-gaps-remain-large

http://www.jbhe.com/features/49_college_admissions-test.html

The simple fact of the matter is that the three majority minority populations in the US (Native American, Black, and Hispanic) all score lower on average on SATs than their White counter parts (who in turn score lower than Asian students). And since the SAT and ACT are pretty much the bar that is set for university entry in much of the country that seems like where we're running into the problem.

When are black or hispanic students with a 30 ACT score and 4.0 GPA got turned down from a university because of their race? Not only would it create a cultural outcry if a minority student with good grades was turned down for admission, what incentive would colleges have to do this? Most public universities tend to be much more heavily left leaning than their surrounding populations at least in the south.

Also that 2nd article is a good read in general as it goes into fair depth about the hows and whys. It's not as simple as 'black kids are treated poorly'. It's economic, cultural, geographical, the whole nine yards. And yes, one of the factors is that black students do suffer bias where school officials are more likely to push them into less educationally demanding paths, not challenging them. But it's only one of alot of factors.

Quote
Even when minority kids manage to enter and graduate college, the disparity remains because their talents will be seen as not worth as much. Being competent is useless when you cannot use those competences and/or benefit from them. Whitewashing doesn't happen because of  lack of good actors from minorities, for example.

As I pointed out above, this is based on the idea that companies and hiring managers base their decisions on something as hazy as the race of the applicant in the majority of cases. Are you going to get some weighting one way or the other based on who is doing the hiring? Probably, as I said its just human nature and some inherent bias will never ever leave us as a species.

But based on the facts it doesn't look like that's happening. Because if it was those asian students would have all the same problems since they're not white. Instead we have a catch 22 where some minorities do worse on tests, thus they cannot get the same opportunities as others, that then makes it so that the next generation is also starting at the same disadvantage.

That's not racism. That's a fundamental problem with how we educate. The white student that does poorly because they grew up in a poorly funded neighborhood or because they simply do not learn the way that US school systems want to force everyone to learn? They're going to experience similar problems across the board: difficulty in college admission, lower success in the job hunt, etc.

As for whitewashing in cinema? I won't argue that hollywood is a game run by rich old white guys so I'm 100% certain that its part of it. But the other part? Like everything else its about money. Hollywood doesn't produce movies because they care about art. They care about profits and all of their data tells them that big name, bankable actors? That's how you get the big profits. And to find their next big 'draw' they're going to try and replicate what they already have: which are heavy on white actors because 40 years ago there was much more blatant racism.

It's an out-moded model that is slowly changing with the times, however, as they see films like Gods of Egypt with its most off the wall casting selection ever, crash and burn. Unfortunately Hollywood is probably a few decades behind the times with the rest of the country so it takes them awhile to catch up.

Quote
All of this come from prejudice, prejudice that is reinforced by things like not bothering to look beyond the stereotypes that are transmitted by jokes, novels, movies and other medias.

Like the jokes about white guys as serial killers or date rapists? The sitcoms that show every middle aged white guy is a moron that cant do anything without his wife and is a completely uncultured slob that cant even pronounce items right at the local mexican restaurant? Stereotypes and jokes are never going away. Ever. If we can actually treat everyone as equal and fair game so that (like the white guy stereotypes on TV) people realize that they are just that: tropes and not reality.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 11:48:22 PM by Tairis »

Offline Anteros

Re: JK Rowling and Cultural Appropriation
« Reply #77 on: April 02, 2016, 03:22:21 AM »
See I'd be much more inclined to go with this argument if someone could reliably produce actual examples where individuals in modern day are being turned down for jobs and opportunities because of their race. I'm not saying it never happens, as I said before there will always be racists in the world, but having been on the hiring side of things for more than a few years in various positions the line of 'you don't want to hire me because I'm *insert minority here* always seems to ignore the fact that the person that wasn't hired had a terrible resume, poor interview, or lacked necessary experience.

Why would any profit minded company turn down an employee based on race if they had a necessary skill that another applicant lacked? The only time I can really see it being a major factor is non-skilled labor: retail etc where you don't need any defined skill. Thus most of the hiring process is entirely on the hiring supervisors opinion of people rather than qualifications.

The only other scenario is the case where you end up with multiple candidates with equal skill, experience, and interview performance. In those scenarios? You're always going to encounter some bias which is human nature. We are wired to want to associate with similar people. If a black guy and a white guy are 100% equally qualified then there is a chance the white guy might get the nod over the black guy because the decision maker isn't even consciously aware of their own bias.

But the idea that there is some 'old white racist' sitting in a room throwing minorities resumes in the trash? I've certainly never seen anything of the sort. And any major corporation isn't likely to stay in business long doing that.

Really? Is it? Because if I look at various sources:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/09/03/sat-scores-drop-and-racial-gaps-remain-large

http://www.jbhe.com/features/49_college_admissions-test.html

The simple fact of the matter is that the three majority minority populations in the US (Native American, Black, and Hispanic) all score lower on average on SATs than their White counter parts (who in turn score lower than Asian students). And since the SAT and ACT are pretty much the bar that is set for university entry in much of the country that seems like where we're running into the problem.

When are black or hispanic students with a 30 ACT score and 4.0 GPA got turned down from a university because of their race? Not only would it create a cultural outcry if a minority student with good grades was turned down for admission, what incentive would colleges have to do this? Most public universities tend to be much more heavily left leaning than their surrounding populations at least in the south.

Also that 2nd article is a good read in general as it goes into fair depth about the hows and whys. It's not as simple as 'black kids are treated poorly'. It's economic, cultural, geographical, the whole nine yards. And yes, one of the factors is that black students do suffer bias where school officials are more likely to push them into less educationally demanding paths, not challenging them. But it's only one of alot of factors.

As I pointed out above, this is based on the idea that companies and hiring managers base their decisions on something as hazy as the race of the applicant in the majority of cases. Are you going to get some weighting one way or the other based on who is doing the hiring? Probably, as I said its just human nature and some inherent bias will never ever leave us as a species.

But based on the facts it doesn't look like that's happening. Because if it was those asian students would have all the same problems since they're not white. Instead we have a catch 22 where some minorities do worse on tests, thus they cannot get the same opportunities as others, that then makes it so that the next generation is also starting at the same disadvantage.

That's not racism. That's a fundamental problem with how we educate. The white student that does poorly because they grew up in a poorly funded neighborhood or because they simply do not learn the way that US school systems want to force everyone to learn? They're going to experience similar problems across the board: difficulty in college admission, lower success in the job hunt, etc.



Quoted from this: http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/documents/research/10_equality_group_inequalities_in_education_employment_and_earnings.pdf

Quote
This report presents a review of data on the relationship between education, employment, income, social class and group-based inequalities relating to gender, ethnicity, disability and sexual orientation.
The aim of this review was to establish whether higher levels of education, employment, income or socio-economic class protect against group-based inequalities. In addition to a review of existing research, the study analysed data from the General Household Survey (GHS 1996/7, 2004/5),
Labour Force Survey (LFS 1996/7, 2004/5), Home Office Citizenship Survey (HOCS 2003, 2005) and the British Household Panel Survey (BHPS 2005). Pooled data are drawn from the GHS and the LFS to show trends over time. This is the first time that gender, ethnicity, disability and same-sex status have been explored together in a single study, along with the relationships between them. The analysis uses descriptive and bivariate analysis as well as more complex statistical modelling for multivariate analysis.
Key findings
1

    Education protects against disadvantage in employment and earnings. 
However, this is a question of degree: many people from ethnic minority
groups with higher levels of education, experience poorer employment rates
and lower incomes than White people.

    In 2004/5, Chinese men with middle or higher levels of education had
the lowest levels of employment and earnings relative to their education.
At the middle educational level, they were just over half as likely (53 per cent) to be
employed as similarly qualified White men. This rose to just three-quarters (78 per cent)
for those at the higher educational level (Figure 5a).
Their earnings profiles were similarly disadvantaged (Figure 5a).

    In 2004/5, Black Caribbean men with higher qualifications were more likely to
be employed than those with lower qualifications. However, even the highly
educated were still disadvantaged when compared with similarly qualified
White men. At the lower and middle educational levels, they were only 80 and
91 per cent as likely to be employed as similarly qualified White men (Figure
5a).

    In 2004/5, the earnings of Pakistani and Bangladeshi men at the low and
middle levels of education are only two-thirds of those of similarly qualified
White men (64 and 65 per cent respectively) (Figure 5a)

   
Quote
People of Black African and Chinese origin were educationally highly qualified
but this was not effectively translated into occupational success. Men of Indian
origin had a lead of 11 per cent in degree-level qualifications, compared to
White men, but this was only reflected in a 7 per cent lead in access to the
salariat (Tables 1a, 1b, 4a, 4b).
 
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 03:24:29 AM by Anteros »

Offline TairisTopic starter

Re: JK Rowling and Cultural Appropriation
« Reply #78 on: April 02, 2016, 11:14:50 AM »
A good report, though not particularly helpful in actually defining any causes. It's also entirely based around the UK which operates both a different educational system and a significantly lower racial diversity than the United States.  It's more just 'here are the numbers' rather than research into actually why those numbers are they way they are. Which is kind of pointless. It's very much like the myth of the male/female wage gap in the United States: women only make 76% of what men make when you ignore dozens of variables like choice of majors, work history, term of employment, working hours, etc.

They also make some points that seem to directly contradict some of their conclusions:

Quote
That said, where ethnic minority men (notably of the second generation) hold similar qualifications and class position to White men, they earn similar amounts Cheung & Heath, 2007). Once ethnic minority men are employed in the labour market, they experience the same processes of stratification as White men although, prejudice and discrimination are still found among employers (and employees). Highly-qualified ethnic minority men however, are treated the same in the recruitment process into high-level professional and managerial positions (Heath & Yu, 2004; Hoque & Noon, 1999). Educational success increases the probability of employment and occupational success for ethnic minority men as it does for White men.

So what I'm seeing is what I'd expect to see: there are employers and employees who discriminate as there always will be but people with similar qualifications and experience have similar opportunities. Where we seem to always seem to find the problems doesn't come just because of discriminatory employers but various factors like culture, economic status, and education.

Why do we not teach students at any level of schooling how to do resumes, what employers look for in work experience, how to present yourself to an employer, what is the proper timeline to follow up on positions? A lot of white students get that kind of education from home, while a lot of minority students don't, but everyone would benefit from it.

This has diverged far from the original point at this point, though, because none of this has anything to do with one ethnic group saying that their culture should be protected from anyone talking about, joking about it, or using it. I seriously doubt any native american is going to not get a job because somebody read the Harry Potter History of America.

Offline Beguile's Mistress

  • Time flies like an arrow ~ Fruit flies like a banana ~ Elliquiy's Fair-E Godmother
  • Dame
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Jul 2009
  • Location: Faeleacanvald ~ The Steeler Nation ~ Home of Lord Stanley's Cup 2016 ~ She won't stay throwed! ~ 48\22-5\1\11-5\7
  • Gender: Female
  • Perpetual Notion Machine ~ 'What if...?'
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: JK Rowling and Cultural Appropriation
« Reply #79 on: April 02, 2016, 03:57:43 PM »
So, I was exploring e-books available through my library and came across something interesting - a book by a writer named Alison Games titled "Witchcraft in Early North America."  It appears Rowling's idea isn't all that original.  I haven't read the book yet or checked reviews and critiques so I don't know if this author caused the same upset Rowling did.  We'll see.

Offline Nachtmahr

  • Glorious Fiend.
  • Liege
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Oct 2009
  • Location: Always out of sight, never out of mind.
  • The curse of life is the curse of want.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: JK Rowling and Cultural Appropriation
« Reply #80 on: April 02, 2016, 10:51:27 PM »
I think you're right, this discussion has definitely begun to veer off topic. That being said:

Why do we not teach students at any level of schooling how to do resumes, what employers look for in work experience, how to present yourself to an employer, what is the proper timeline to follow up on positions? A lot of white students get that kind of education from home, while a lot of minority students don't, but everyone would benefit from it.

The above statement does appear questionable to me. I'd like to know exactly what you're basing that assumption on?

I could have missed an article somewhere, but I think "A lot of minority students don't" sounds like a vast generalization. I mean, "Minority students" would include more than a dozen different cultures that all bring up their young with different values in mind.

So, I was exploring e-books available through my library and came across something interesting - a book by a writer named Alison Games titled "Witchcraft in Early North America."  It appears Rowling's idea isn't all that original.  I haven't read the book yet or checked reviews and critiques so I don't know if this author caused the same upset Rowling did.  We'll see.

As much as I enjoyed Harry Potter, I don't think J. K. Rowling could ever have been accused of being particularly original, save perhaps for the invention of Quidditch. She uses a lot of common tropes and fantasy elements, and while she does it fairly well it's not all that hard to find work that's at least similar in nature to the Harry Potter franchise.

"Witchcraft in Early North America" could also mean a lot of things. It could even be a somewhat insensitive name for a study into the spirituality of the region's inhabitants at the time. I'd be surprised if there weren't actually quite a few works trying to establish a fictionalized version of Native American culture as a franchise.

I have never heard of Alison Games before, but chances are that they're not as well known as Rowling though, leading me to believe that any controversy caused by their writing would be smaller in scope. Rowling's work may well have slipped by unnoticed, had she not been as popular a brand as she is after all.

Offline Kythia

  • Noooo-one Fights like Kythia no-one bites like Kythia
  • Dame
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Oct 2012
  • Gender: Female
  • No one chain smokes Marlboro lights like Kythia
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: JK Rowling and Cultural Appropriation
« Reply #81 on: April 03, 2016, 09:21:16 AM »
Alison Games is a historian.  Witchcraft in Early North America is a book about witches in colonial era North America.  Salem and suchlike.  It's not overly relevant to this.

Offline Nachtmahr

  • Glorious Fiend.
  • Liege
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Oct 2009
  • Location: Always out of sight, never out of mind.
  • The curse of life is the curse of want.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: JK Rowling and Cultural Appropriation
« Reply #82 on: April 03, 2016, 09:57:35 AM »
Alison Games is a historian.  Witchcraft in Early North America is a book about witches in colonial era North America.  Salem and suchlike.  It's not overly relevant to this.

Right, makes sense. Thanks for heads up. :)

Offline TairisTopic starter

Re: JK Rowling and Cultural Appropriation
« Reply #83 on: April 03, 2016, 05:45:35 PM »

The above statement does appear questionable to me. I'd like to know exactly what you're basing that assumption on?

I could have missed an article somewhere, but I think "A lot of minority students don't" sounds like a vast generalization. I mean, "Minority students" would include more than a dozen different cultures that all bring up their young with different values in mind.

I've seen more than a few studies and papers over the years that bring up that example, most of them seem to be behind a paywall of course tho this one touches on it briefly:

http://harvardmagazine.com/2013/05/the-urban-jobs-crisis

I can also simply attest to it from personal experience of reviewing resumes, applications, and conducting interviews. It's not strictly a 'minority' problem, I've interviewed probably a hundred people at this point that simply had zero concept of how to present themselves in an interview, how to prepare a decent looking resume, etc. But a greater percentage of those 100 or have been minorities. Usually its issues of inappropriate dress (don't come to a business-casual office environment interview wearing shorts, etc) and poor resume skills (massive amounts of typos, terrible layouts, way inappropriate email addresses to be sticking on professional resumes, etc).

Offline Nachtmahr

  • Glorious Fiend.
  • Liege
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Oct 2009
  • Location: Always out of sight, never out of mind.
  • The curse of life is the curse of want.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: JK Rowling and Cultural Appropriation
« Reply #84 on: April 03, 2016, 06:08:18 PM »
I've seen more than a few studies and papers over the years that bring up that example, most of them seem to be behind a paywall of course tho this one touches on it briefly:

http://harvardmagazine.com/2013/05/the-urban-jobs-crisis

I can also simply attest to it from personal experience of reviewing resumes, applications, and conducting interviews. It's not strictly a 'minority' problem, I've interviewed probably a hundred people at this point that simply had zero concept of how to present themselves in an interview, how to prepare a decent looking resume, etc. But a greater percentage of those 100 or have been minorities. Usually its issues of inappropriate dress (don't come to a business-casual office environment interview wearing shorts, etc) and poor resume skills (massive amounts of typos, terrible layouts, way inappropriate email addresses to be sticking on professional resumes, etc).

I would like to oppose this, but that would frankly take this discussion even further off topic than it already. I suppose I'll just say that I respectfully but firmly disagree with this sentiment, but this isn't the place to discuss it further as it's not relevant to the original discussion.