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Author Topic: Looking for Legend of the Five Rings! L5R!  (Read 2702 times)

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Offline Ephiral

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Re: Looking for Legend of the Five Rings! L5R!
« Reply #50 on: July 09, 2015, 10:37:00 PM »
I am considering different starting xp based on age.  How does everyone feel about this, and what type of scale would you be comfortable with?
Am not a fan of linking mechanical benefits to flavour elements, but it's not a deal-breaker. My objection is more on principles of system design, and I get what you're trying to do here.

I am normally pretty big on gender ratios, but I can't say that I am expecting a particularly significant amount of sexual tension, so am considering tossing that aside.
Was leaning female myself since a) my other two L5R characters are male, and b) I tend to be more on the femme side on E anyway. I do think that sexual tension is a classic element of the kind of stories L5R is trying to tell - but the key is tension, the conflict between desire and duty, and possibly tragedy if/when it gets resolved.

I am considering playing with the possibility of differing loyalties/philosophies within the group, which could lead to elements of pvp later on in the story.
I like this, particularly in the way Muse presents. I wouldn't want to see anything to permanently fragment the group (unless one side is being retired as PCs), but divided loyalties and tension between them is another strong element of a good samurai story.

And yeah, definitely aware.  One of the interesting things about L5R was a conscious decision to NOT balance different schools, as at different times, due to resources, sensei, experience, some schools were just stronger.  Look at ronin creation.  They are undeniably weaker than Clan characters.
Ehh, I'd argue that the clans as a whole are very carefully balanced - it's just that the balance tends to be triangular. There will be a clear winner and loser among any two individuals of equal XP and insight, but there'll be a third that can demolish the "stronger" and will be spanked by the "weaker". Ronin are the exception here, but that's a) in keeping with setting, and b) a strong discouragement from playing characters who should be rare.

Overall, I'm on board with most of what's been discussed - in particular, I find the timing and positioning of the Owl clan intriguing. It's a very precarious position, which I love.

The other two games I'm currently involved in are actually in the same world, set in the mid-1140s currently. We've shifted the timeline a bit; there was no War of Spirits, and basically every other major crisis from 1130 through 1160 is kicking off now or shortly. This was partly because we thought it was a bit silly to have the Empire constantly fighting for its existence, and we wanted the last such threat to be a distant memory so the next one would take a while to seem plausible to most people. These are, in turn, a continuation of an earlier game leading up to the Second Day of Thunder. Setting elements that just flat-out didn't work for us mostly boiled down to "that seems silly" - bits like the Scorpion forgetting to check the palace basement during their coup (we had the Last Hantei smuggled out instead), or Hitomi and Yakamo replacing Onnotangu and Amaterasu (Hitomi, at least, is still Dragon Champion and up to no good.) The Hidden Emperor storyline also seems a bit out of place - the Scorpion were willing to attempt a coup based on a prophecy, but nobody says a word when the Emperor actually vanishes, is known to have been held and tortured by forces of darkness, and is visibly unhinged and defying longstanding traditions the moment he gets back? It's... salvageable, but weird, and hasn't happened in our game thus far.

Offline kckolbe

Re: Looking for Legend of the Five Rings! L5R!
« Reply #51 on: July 09, 2015, 11:03:23 PM »
First off, thanks for the thoughtful feedback.  I thrive on it, since I tend to come up with a lot of interesting ideas, but sometimes they can do more harm than good.  Active OOC input really is a requirement for me, largely for that reason.

Quote
Am not a fan of linking mechanical benefits to flavour elements, but it's not a deal-breaker. My objection is more on principles of system design, and I get what you're trying to do here.

Completely understandable.  I think I am going to re-do the table and scale it back a bit.  After doing some math, an average 51 year old would be half way to Insight Rank 3 with that xp, which is, in my opinion, behind the curve, but it is still an advantage over another PC, which can make things awkward.  I think I have a better idea of how to handle it now.

Quote
Was leaning female myself since a) my other two L5R characters are male, and b) I tend to be more on the femme side on E anyway. I do think that sexual tension is a classic element of the kind of stories L5R is trying to tell - but the key is tension, the conflict between desire and duty, and possibly tragedy if/when it gets resolved.
  No argument here at all.  I think the issue is that much of that tone is lost once the average sex scene on E is written.  But yeah, much as with the next issue, moderation is the key.

Quote
I like this, particularly in the way Muse presents. I wouldn't want to see anything to permanently fragment the group (unless one side is being retired as PCs), but divided loyalties and tension between them is another strong element of a good samurai story.

I was glad for his suggestion.  I think that political and philosophical conflict is necessary for the story I am intending to run, but a derailing conflict can end a story, so this is a good compromise.

Quote
Ehh, I'd argue that the clans as a whole are very carefully balanced - it's just that the balance tends to be triangular. There will be a clear winner and loser among any two individuals of equal XP and insight, but there'll be a third that can demolish the "stronger" and will be spanked by the "weaker". Ronin are the exception here, but that's a) in keeping with setting, and b) a strong discouragement from playing characters who should be rare.
 

There are enough exceptions to this to make it debatable, but I do see your point.  Regarding ronin, I'll just say that my favorite family in Rokugan is ronin, and I hate how they were written off without a single attempt to do anything with them.  It's Kaeru, by the way.

I can't say I blame you for neglecting the War of Spirits.  Everything after Toturi took the throne became very contrived, in my opinion, and the cultural impacts are kind of ignored.  Personally, I liked the challenge of trying to do a what would have happened.  I mean, the Emperor gave an order, and a large portion of Rokugan refused it.  Incidentally, the order applied to him, and the hypocrisy of that is NEVER mentioned.  Then, a force rises up to forcefully remove the Emperor, and loses, yet the leader of that movement isn't executed, or even remotely punished.  Hell, he gets to raise the Emperor's child.  This is the kind of shit that shatters belief in divine rule.  So, uh...spoiler, this game will deal with samurai whose belief in Toturi's divine mandate has been shattered.  And I kept the Hidden Emperor because it kind of contributes to the progression of that belief.

Glad you noticed the locations that Owl occupies.  I think the Stag have a nice location as well. 

Offline hellrazoromega

Re: Looking for Legend of the Five Rings! L5R!
« Reply #52 on: July 10, 2015, 12:25:46 AM »
I would love to play an older sagely, sensei type of bushi with a game like this--gender would not matter to me much depending on what the group had I could be flexible, but a middle-aged  Onna-bugeisha would be cool to play. Frankly, I could deal with all of the stuff in the last post on page one--it sounds different and I like different.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Looking for Legend of the Five Rings! L5R!
« Reply #53 on: July 10, 2015, 12:50:52 AM »
First off, thanks for the thoughtful feedback.  I thrive on it, since I tend to come up with a lot of interesting ideas, but sometimes they can do more harm than good.  Active OOC input really is a requirement for me, largely for that reason.
I have shockingly little issue with this.

No argument here at all.  I think the issue is that much of that tone is lost once the average sex scene on E is written.  But yeah, much as with the next issue, moderation is the key.
Honestly, I'd expect an L5 game to be surprisingly clean by E standards, which is one of the things that drew me to it. (Not sure I have quiiiite enough confidence in my writing to do publicly smutty.)

I can't say I blame you for neglecting the War of Spirits.  Everything after Toturi took the throne became very contrived, in my opinion, and the cultural impacts are kind of ignored.  Personally, I liked the challenge of trying to do a what would have happened.  I mean, the Emperor gave an order, and a large portion of Rokugan refused it.  Incidentally, the order applied to him, and the hypocrisy of that is NEVER mentioned.  Then, a force rises up to forcefully remove the Emperor, and loses, yet the leader of that movement isn't executed, or even remotely punished.  Hell, he gets to raise the Emperor's child.  This is the kind of shit that shatters belief in divine rule.  So, uh...spoiler, this game will deal with samurai whose belief in Toturi's divine mandate has been shattered.  And I kept the Hidden Emperor because it kind of contributes to the progression of that belief.
The War of Spirits was just weird in a lot of ways, and disrupted the (IMO) more interesting story of the first non-Hantei emperor and how he legitimizes and consolidates his authority. I agree that there was a lot of wasted potential for more grounded stories in the Toturi era, and honestly that's where I think L5R shines best. Have no issue with the Hidden Emperor if it's being grounded in verisimilitude and important to plot.

Glad you noticed the locations that Owl occupies.  I think the Stag have a nice location as well.
My current characters are a Yasuki and a Hiruma no Raikuto (I admit, I'm an unabashed Crab fan). I'm very familiar with that region and its potential issues.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Looking for Legend of the Five Rings! L5R!
« Reply #54 on: July 10, 2015, 01:32:31 AM »
:: peeks::

Offline Pretty in Pink

Re: Looking for Legend of the Five Rings! L5R!
« Reply #55 on: July 10, 2015, 06:39:21 AM »
*facerolls into a group game*  Is there still room?  Having read through the topic, I have an idea, but I need to get it more put together before I throw it at you, kc.  Suffice to say, I'm looking at possibly a Crab hostaged to the Owl, if that's okay?  That is, after all, a common practice.

Offline Muse

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Re: Looking for Legend of the Five Rings! L5R!
« Reply #56 on: July 10, 2015, 08:20:04 AM »
  Am I the only one looking at a Shugenja?  :) 

Offline kckolbe

Re: Looking for Legend of the Five Rings! L5R!
« Reply #57 on: July 10, 2015, 08:38:02 AM »
Nice to see some new interest on waking up.  I haven't set a group size.

A hostage wouldn't work in this case, as the Owl will not have existed long enough to take any.  Our PCs will be heading to their new lands when the game begins.

Also, if you and Pumpkin could start with the last post on page 1, I'd still like more feedback on those questions I asked, as well as other discussions since then.  No rush on char concept.  I'm definitely interested in hearing character concepts, but they aren't required yet.  I'll do a proper recruiting thread within the next 6 days where the starting situation will be explained in more detail.  Also, while things might be negotiable in that thread, especially house rules, decisions that affect the tone and type of game are being finalized in this thread.

Honestly, I'd expect an L5 game to be surprisingly clean by E standards, which is one of the things that drew me to it. (Not sure I have quiiiite enough confidence in my writing to do publicly smutty.)
The War of Spirits was just weird in a lot of ways, and disrupted the (IMO) more interesting story of the first non-Hantei emperor and how he legitimizes and consolidates his authority. I agree that there was a lot of wasted potential for more grounded stories in the Toturi era, and honestly that's where I think L5R shines best. Have no issue with the Hidden Emperor if it's being grounded in verisimilitude and important to plot.
My current characters are a Yasuki and a Hiruma no Raikuto (I admit, I'm an unabashed Crab fan). I'm very familiar with that region and its potential issues.

L5R is a little cleaner, as sex doesn't happen as freely. 

You make a good point on Toturi's reign being a huge precedent that isn't developed at all.  Only the Gozoku was a bigger threat to the society created by the Kami, and that ended with a very impressive and faith restoring spectacle.  With this, I think they know it's over.  Interesting that the only Emperor to make it through was Hantei XVI, by the way, the only Emperor killed by his own guards. 

I have a lot of respect for both Crab and Lion, and vague interest in the rest, though I think Crane's role in history is a little hard to believe (but I think that has more to do with presentation than substance), and the Scorpion are, in my mind, a joke.  Everything about their premise and history makes no sense to me.  I will say that I do like their absolute Clan loyalty, but yeah, would probably buy into the setting a lot easier if they didn't exist.  Kinda the same with the Dragon.  They almost never contribute, and when they do, it seems inconsistent.  I can't help but think of the Cheshire Cat from the Burton remake saying "I never get involved in politics" then randomly getting involved in politics. 

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Looking for Legend of the Five Rings! L5R!
« Reply #58 on: July 10, 2015, 09:09:12 AM »
You make a good point on Toturi's reign being a huge precedent that isn't developed at all.  Only the Gozoku was a bigger threat to the society created by the Kami, and that ended with a very impressive and faith restoring spectacle.  With this, I think they know it's over.  Interesting that the only Emperor to make it through was Hantei XVI, by the way, the only Emperor killed by his own guards.
Given how the Hantei line ended, yeah, this is a pretty definitive shift. For a society that hasn't changed meaningfully in literally a thousand years, that should be a way bigger deal than the official timeline makes of it.

I have a lot of respect for both Crab and Lion, and vague interest in the rest, though I think Crane's role in history is a little hard to believe (but I think that has more to do with presentation than substance), and the Scorpion are, in my mind, a joke.  Everything about their premise and history makes no sense to me.  I will say that I do like their absolute Clan loyalty, but yeah, would probably buy into the setting a lot easier if they didn't exist.  Kinda the same with the Dragon.  They almost never contribute, and when they do, it seems inconsistent.  I can't help but think of the Cheshire Cat from the Burton remake saying "I never get involved in politics" then randomly getting involved in politics.
The Lion are mostly respectable, but lose points for me because their official clan sport is Kick The Minor Clan. The Crane... They were the Mary Sue clan to start with, and there's still precious little explanation of how exactly a clan with little expertise on the open battlefield manages to hold so much prime real estate with the Lion and Crab next door. The Scorpion I find... interesting, but poorly portrayed; they work as a tool that is occasionally useful to the empire, and vital when it comes up, and they hammer home the idea of the collective good being more important than you as an individual. The Dragon... yeah, they're there in case a Deus ex Machina is needed, and that's about it for the most part.

The clan I find I've got the unpopular stance on is the Spider. I think their treatment makes absolute and total sense.

Offline kckolbe

Re: Looking for Legend of the Five Rings! L5R!
« Reply #59 on: July 10, 2015, 10:31:08 AM »
It's fine if you don't like the Lion.  They are assholes and bullies.  But they are also damn consistent in who they are and how they are viewed, so I like them.  They make sense, and have a distinct, yet compatible identity.  In a society where the most important positions are determined by skill of arms, why shouldn't there be a culture that thinks force should resolve any dispute?  Also, they do selfishness well.  They constantly seek to plunder until there is a threat to the Empire, at which point they consistently act in the Empire's best interests.  They ended the Gozoku and the Clan War, and were the first Clan to take on the spirits as a whole, despite being the only Clan to worship the people that counted among their opponents.  And the only Minor Clan they look for opportunities to kick is the Dragonfly, which shouldn't exist.  What is their official duty?  They serve as heralds and doorguards to the Dragon?  What fucking sense does that make? 

As for the Spider...I stopped caring before they existed.  In 1167 Emperor Toturi III, who apparently subscribed to the Tragedy of the Month club (his bio is fucking ridiculous), decided that his life was too boring and decided to go wandering, becoming known as The Wanderer (really).  Somehow, he stays Emperor, just abandons his duty, because nothing has been going on where command decisions might need to be made.  Also, he recently married and had no heirs, and no one thought that *maybe* the issue of succession should be addressed beforehand, because it's not like there wasn't a disastrous war of succession less than a decade prior.  He stays gone until his death in 1168. 

I will say that the argument the Spider used to become a Great Clan is basically the same one *I* used to make the Stag Clan, so it's not like I'm completely opposed to them.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Looking for Legend of the Five Rings! L5R!
« Reply #60 on: July 10, 2015, 02:04:29 PM »
As I said, I respect the Lion, but their habit of beating on minor clans (and it ain't just the Dragonfly) is less than admirable.

Toturi III's story is beyond ridiculous.

I think the Spider thing makes sense because... really? Nobody gets unwillingly tainted ever, and a significant threat to the Empire starts wearing badges announcing who they are? Deal and deal. Notice that since they became a Great Clan, the other clans have basically been lining up to kick them in the crotch repeatedly - Clan status is not the same as safety. It's a win-win for the Empire, really.

Offline kckolbe

Re: Looking for Legend of the Five Rings! L5R!
« Reply #61 on: July 10, 2015, 03:00:08 PM »
Quick Status Updates:

Toritaka Reju, Rank 5 bushi, and creator and sensei of the Owl Bushi school, has been created.  He's nothing particularly special, though will seem amazingly capable compared to rank 1s.

I will decide on a daimyo much later on, after this is posted in Groups Wanted.  That is also where I will post up positions of relative importance that a starting char *might* be appointed to.

I have decided to award 1xp for every year above 16.  However, all chars will start at Rank 1, even if they have the Insight to be Rank 2.  After the first adventure (which is a quick module), everyone will be able to advance to Rank 2, at which point I will attempt an original challenge or two before going back to my crutch of modules.  Unfortunately, I only own two modules that seem applicable, so after that I better find some damn creativity.  By then I should have enough to feed off of.   

This game, which I am considering calling "Two Dead Emperors," will be posted in the recruitment thread in about 5 days.  My schedule generally consists of 4 days on and 4 days off, and I like kicking off new milestones at the beginning of my break so I can respond quickly to questions. 

On the above note, I'd like to talk about pace.  I am not a rapid poster, but I am fairly consistent.  I can absolutely be counted on for at least one IC GM post a week, with rolls, combat actions and OOC answers always within 24 hours (unless specified in advance).  This is kind of where I'd like everyone else to be, and think that 5 days should be the deadline for IC posting before getting skipped/GM'd, and 24 hours the deadline before rolls and combat actions are determined by me.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Looking for Legend of the Five Rings! L5R!
« Reply #62 on: July 10, 2015, 03:22:07 PM »
See I find the Crane to be awesome.  They rigged the game in their favor and reaped the benefits throughout history.  They made it so all legal disputes can be settled by dueling and who just happens to have the best duelists...they do.  They also position their courtiers and people into important positions consistently.  TheScorpion are cool for me up until the whole shadow thing.  Its like monumental cunning clan has brain fart for decades.

Offline hellrazoromega

Re: Looking for Legend of the Five Rings! L5R!
« Reply #63 on: July 10, 2015, 03:48:00 PM »
See the Scorpion are may favorite Clan but they are so often played wrong IMO. So many see the Scorpion as dishonorable---just because. When the Scorpion feel have very good reasons. They know (read: believe) that against enemies who are dishonorable the honorable foe will eventually loose every time. I sort of like the idea of a Clan who pragmatically forgoes honor to work in the shadows and save others from a unsustainable noble ideal. This is not to say that Scorpion who are just dishonorable A-holes don't exist, the Clan plays with dishonor so much that even the best of them can fall. Of course this requires my standard disclaimer (The preceding was my opinion, your opinion may, and most likely will vary, this statement was not endorsed by Major League Field Hockey or the Clown College of America).

That said, I love the Crab and the Lion next. I'm lucky enough to know a couple of the devs who fleshed the Lion for AEG may moons ago and got to peek into their design so as much as I love the Scorpion and the Crab I feel I know the Lion better. After that I do enjoy the Unicorn and am rather indifferent to the other Major Clans.

Offline Flying TenguTopic starter

Re: Looking for Legend of the Five Rings! L5R!
« Reply #64 on: July 10, 2015, 03:55:39 PM »
Quick Status Updates:

Toritaka Reju, Rank 5 bushi, and creator and sensei of the Owl Bushi school, has been created.  He's nothing particularly special, though will seem amazingly capable compared to rank 1s.

I will decide on a daimyo much later on, after this is posted in Groups Wanted.  That is also where I will post up positions of relative importance that a starting char *might* be appointed to.

I have decided to award 1xp for every year above 16.  However, all chars will start at Rank 1, even if they have the Insight to be Rank 2.  After the first adventure (which is a quick module), everyone will be able to advance to Rank 2, at which point I will attempt an original challenge or two before going back to my crutch of modules.  Unfortunately, I only own two modules that seem applicable, so after that I better find some damn creativity.  By then I should have enough to feed off of.   

This game, which I am considering calling "Two Dead Emperors," will be posted in the recruitment thread in about 5 days.  My schedule generally consists of 4 days on and 4 days off, and I like kicking off new milestones at the beginning of my break so I can respond quickly to questions. 

On the above note, I'd like to talk about pace.  I am not a rapid poster, but I am fairly consistent.  I can absolutely be counted on for at least one IC GM post a week, with rolls, combat actions and OOC answers always within 24 hours (unless specified in advance).  This is kind of where I'd like everyone else to be, and think that 5 days should be the deadline for IC posting before getting skipped/GM'd, and 24 hours the deadline before rolls and combat actions are determined by me.

That all sounds good to me!  Especially the bit with pace; slow but steady is better than a brief flurry of activity, after which everyone, or at least some important people, disappear.

It sounds like our characters will be taking roles of importance in the new clan, and not just the generalized troubleshooters that PCs so often are.  I'm quite curious to see what these turn out to be.

Offline kckolbe

Re: Looking for Legend of the Five Rings! L5R!
« Reply #65 on: July 10, 2015, 04:06:27 PM »
That's actually not the reason I dislike them.  I see them as very selfish, despite claiming to be the ones sacrificing the most (their honor).  Anyone who succumbs to the Taint loses their honor as well, and far more Crab suffer that fate than Scorpion.  So the entire premise of their worth is misleading.

Not all chars will be important, position-wise, but with such a small clan, all samurai have to carry a fair bit of responsibility.

Offline hellrazoromega

Re: Looking for Legend of the Five Rings! L5R!
« Reply #66 on: July 10, 2015, 06:52:58 PM »
That's actually not the reason I dislike them.  I see them as very selfish, despite claiming to be the ones sacrificing the most (their honor).  Anyone who succumbs to the Taint loses their honor as well, and far more Crab suffer that fate than Scorpion.  So the entire premise of their worth is misleading.

Not all chars will be important, position-wise, but with such a small clan, all samurai have to carry a fair bit of responsibility.
Yeah that was the sentiment I disagree with, though I may not have spelled it out well. I see them as selflessly sacrificing their honor for the greater good. Do they fail at it? All the time--but that is the ideal they are supposed to strive for. In any case like I said that is my take on them and they way I play them or run them or when I run games, many disagree, as is their right. ;D

Quick Status Updates:

Toritaka Reju, Rank 5 bushi, and creator and sensei of the Owl Bushi school, has been created.  He's nothing particularly special, though will seem amazingly capable compared to rank 1s.

I will decide on a daimyo much later on, after this is posted in Groups Wanted.  That is also where I will post up positions of relative importance that a starting char *might* be appointed to.

I have decided to award 1xp for every year above 16.  However, all chars will start at Rank 1, even if they have the Insight to be Rank 2.  After the first adventure (which is a quick module), everyone will be able to advance to Rank 2, at which point I will attempt an original challenge or two before going back to my crutch of modules.  Unfortunately, I only own two modules that seem applicable, so after that I better find some damn creativity.  By then I should have enough to feed off of.   

This game, which I am considering calling "Two Dead Emperors," will be posted in the recruitment thread in about 5 days.  My schedule generally consists of 4 days on and 4 days off, and I like kicking off new milestones at the beginning of my break so I can respond quickly to questions. 

On the above note, I'd like to talk about pace.  I am not a rapid poster, but I am fairly consistent.  I can absolutely be counted on for at least one IC GM post a week, with rolls, combat actions and OOC answers always within 24 hours (unless specified in advance).  This is kind of where I'd like everyone else to be, and think that 5 days should be the deadline for IC posting before getting skipped/GM'd, and 24 hours the deadline before rolls and combat actions are determined by me.

I'm usually good for posting everyday or at the very least every other day, On occasion when things would be longer I would usually be able to give notice.

Offline kckolbe

Re: Looking for Legend of the Five Rings! L5R!
« Reply #67 on: July 10, 2015, 07:27:10 PM »
I don't mind a selfish, underhanded Clan.  I think what bothers me is that they only ever turn that underhandedness inward.  Sometimes it is for a good cause, but consider the Lion.  They constantly turn their might on other clans for personal gain, but you also see them devastating Shadowlands forces (or Spirits).  Moments like that validate their existence.  The Scorpion, on the other hand, only deceive Rokuganis.  Interaction with foreigners is done by the Phoenix (Yobanjin tribes), Mantis (Ivory Kingdoms), and Unicorn (can't remember their name), but the Scorpion...not so much.  In addition, and this is huge, there is ANOTHER clan whose job it is to engage in underhanded behavior for the good of the Empire, the Tortoise.  The Scorpion were so bad at their ONLY contribution to Rokugan that the Emperor created an entirely new clan just to do that shit.  In addition, the Scorpion Clan Coup was pretty embarrassing.  They lost because they were counting on the Crab to ally with them.  1) Maybe if you don't constantly fuck people over, they might help you when you ask for it.  2) If you can't predict the fucking CRAB's decisions, then you just suck at reading people.

Also, I'm just not a fan of dark and mysterious.  Sadly, it's probably more about that than anything else. 

Offline hellrazoromega

Re: Looking for Legend of the Five Rings! L5R!
« Reply #68 on: July 10, 2015, 08:30:49 PM »
I don't mind a selfish, underhanded Clan.  I think what bothers me is that they only ever turn that underhandedness inward.  Sometimes it is for a good cause, but consider the Lion.  They constantly turn their might on other clans for personal gain, but you also see them devastating Shadowlands forces (or Spirits).  Moments like that validate their existence.  The Scorpion, on the other hand, only deceive Rokuganis.  Interaction with foreigners is done by the Phoenix (Yobanjin tribes), Mantis (Ivory Kingdoms), and Unicorn (can't remember their name), but the Scorpion...not so much.  In addition, and this is huge, there is ANOTHER clan whose job it is to engage in underhanded behavior for the good of the Empire, the Tortoise.  The Scorpion were so bad at their ONLY contribution to Rokugan that the Emperor created an entirely new clan just to do that shit.  In addition, the Scorpion Clan Coup was pretty embarrassing.  They lost because they were counting on the Crab to ally with them.  1) Maybe if you don't constantly fuck people over, they might help you when you ask for it.  2) If you can't predict the fucking CRAB's decisions, then you just suck at reading people.

Also, I'm just not a fan of dark and mysterious.  Sadly, it's probably more about that than anything else.
I can agree with some of that and I strongly agree about the outward uses of the Scorpion, in fact I incorporate some of that in my own games to deviate from canon. Myself I'm a huge fan of dark and mysterious--so long as it is for a higher noble cause and not just dark and mysterious because it is "cool" or for its own sake. Without an an underlying noble cause then I too don't care for dark and mysterious. I also agree about the Coup, as well as several other parts of Rokugani history, which sadly comes from having an RPG integrally tied to a CCG in its progression and development. Frankly, I take all the BS in Rokugan which thematically does not make sense to me for that reason and as you point out the Coup is a prime example, the Scorpion should not have expected aid from the Crab, of all the Clans. Tying things properties so closely together has some merits but it also makes for amazing plot gaps. For instance,  I love The Iron Kingdoms setting but by being tied to Warmachine/Hordes the setting falls apart under close scrutiny because some, if not all, of the major powers would eventually collapse under the weight of constant warfare. Rokugan suffers from some of the same issues by being tied to a card game, so parts of its history just make no sense---even within the confines of its own setting.

That said, I still love the Rokugan and am one of those weirdos who has my own take on, and love for, many fictional organizations which others seem to dislike (the Scorpion, the Jedi Order, etc.).

Offline kckolbe

Re: Looking for Legend of the Five Rings! L5R!
« Reply #69 on: July 10, 2015, 08:37:26 PM »
The card game does deserve a lot of the blame...but not as much as just bad or lazy writing.  When I was first introduced to Rokugan, I absolutely fell in love with it.  It was the first RPG setting that actually had a real feel to it.  It was its own world.  HOWEVER, a lot of what I loved later got retconned away to provide a half-ass explanation for something, or to give minor glory to someone else.  The Kaeru weren't even causing any lore issues, but they were made to disappear (the vassal to a vassal) just so they wouldn't have to be mentioned anymore.  That's not the card game; that's laziness. 

Offline Marie Reynolds

Re: Looking for Legend of the Five Rings! L5R!
« Reply #70 on: July 10, 2015, 08:46:25 PM »
So what clans are people being mandated to send members to become the new minor clan. Also have Ronin been granted the chance to swear  fealty to the new clan Daimyo?

Offline kckolbe

Re: Looking for Legend of the Five Rings! L5R!
« Reply #71 on: July 10, 2015, 08:58:31 PM »
The acceptance of ronin will be determined by the daimyo, and which Clans get tapped will be based on which characters we get. 

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Looking for Legend of the Five Rings! L5R!
« Reply #72 on: July 10, 2015, 09:43:50 PM »
Kind of thinking a crane duelist or courtier.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Looking for Legend of the Five Rings! L5R!
« Reply #73 on: July 10, 2015, 10:31:36 PM »
Lazy writing, lazier editing, and shit-poor research have been a problem in L5R's history - there is a very good reason there are no L5R edition wars. John Wick, to be blunt, thought he knew way more about feudal Asia than he does, and didn't rein his writers in in any meaningful way. An interesting problem we came across in the Second Day of Thunder game I mentioned: The times given for army movements in the Clan War are wildly inconsistent and occasionally impossible, because they apparently forgot whether Rokugan was Fantasy China or Fantasy Japan.

Oh, and... 1e Kakita Artisans. Nuff said.

Offline hellrazoromega

Re: Looking for Legend of the Five Rings! L5R!
« Reply #74 on: July 10, 2015, 11:59:49 PM »
To be fair Rokugan is based on "feudal" Asia but it is neither feudal nor Asia (feudal is so not a proper term in this context, sorry I'm a historian so I hang up on these things). In the beginning Rokugan was supposed to be a blend of Chinese and Japanese elements, as you say, but then rampant Nipponophilia took hold (not all AEG's fault, Japanese culture tends to get more traction in Western fiction that other parts of Asia, for the most part) and things ever since have been more Japanese with some very out of place Chinese (and other Asian) elements. There have been some writers who were very good and others who were...well.... Without some good writers, I doubt even Nippionophilia could sustain a totally awful game--though I could be, and often am, wrong. I only partially agree on the edition wars, I don't think edition wars are as much of an issue with many games unless the changes are drastic and to the system, more so than the setting (though exceptions apply).  I agree the editing has long been a issue but sadly I have noticed it has gotten bad industry wide, as of late.  Lastly, I'll say, to be fair, that few games which have been around as long as L5R and that have an ongoing meta pot filled with major wars don't suffer from similar issues to some degree (again exceptions apply). Games, or any IP, with a long history need to have someone in charge of continuity to be able to say when things just don't fit the world or make sense within its own rules.

All that said, I'd love to see what the Owl school ends up looking like.