Types of Banning/Discrimination

[Thesunmaid]

The only thing that sort of makes me shake my head is people are missing out on an entirely fucking amazing section of the E with lieges. I mean does the I only play with women..or I will only play with males...you never see an ad saying I will only play with someone who is transgendered or I only want lieges. Some of the most amazing people I have met on here were either once one gender and are now another or they are lieges.

I am not saying that anyone has to play with a gender they are uncomfortable with but...it seems a bit unfair to leave out an entire section of people just because some are not quite sure what gender they are...some were born in the wrong body...some just don't really see gender as that important. But what ever someones reasons are...maybe just try and keep in mind that they are all just people. Your genitals don't make you who you are. Not all men are rapey misogynists...not all woman are emotional nut bags...not all trans people are weirdos...they are all just people who like to write.

And yes Lesbian games will attract some guys who are like hurr hurr gonna see some girl on girl action...but also some guy on guy games might get a woman hot? Is that wrong? Yes the lesbian porn thing is much more well known but..that does not mean its wrong does it..sex it hot and awesome and feels good. Boobs are comfortable and magical. Penises are wonderful things too. so are vagina's and hairy chests..they are all just people in the end wanting to play.

I am pansexual...so I pretty much don't care what someones bits look like...if you have both..or just one so long as you are an interesting person who writes well and we have things in common..I will play. But..maybe me being pansexual does confuse me on why people are so adamant about one or the other. But also my first crush was another girl..then i discovered I liked both boys and girls...then I thought ok I am bi...cool i know what I am now..Then I met a woman in a mans body that made me rethink things yet again..so maybe because of the way I realized my sexuality is why I feel the way I do?

[Iniquitous]

Here is my issue.

Not everyone is comfortable with everyone else. And that is okay. There is nothing in the rules that says you have to write with whomever approaches you. No one here forces people to write with everyone else.

It’s perfectly fine that there are those here that can write with whomever, whenever. It’s perfectly fine that there are some who want to write only with those that define themselves as male. It’s perfectly fine that there are some who want to write only with those that define themselves as female.

I am really struggling to understand why there is so much angst about this. Yes, I understand that there was a group game that denied someone because his tag said Lord and the group game was for females only. But, really? All of this angst when you can simply say “well shit, that sucks. Let me look and see if I see another game I am interested in.” or “Well damn, let me work on setting up my own group game that is similar to this one so I can play this idea.”

We are all adults here, we should all be able to respect the limits and comfort levels of our fellow members. I mean, to me, this whole thread feels like a shaming tactic. I am sure the OP did not mean it that way, but after so many threads about this same topic and the reasons given not clearing anything up, it really does come across as a way to shame those whose preferences do not match everyone else.

This went from venting about a group game being set up that requests Lady tag only to trying to call this discrimination and trying to compare it to businesses when it should have been simply understood that the preferences of the GM and those involved in the game take precedence over someone’s feelings getting bent because they cannot join something that was clearly not set up for every member of Elliquiy.

[consortium11]

The only thing that sort of makes me shake my head is people are missing out on an entirely fucking amazing section of the E with lieges. I mean does the I only play with women..or I will only play with males...you never see an ad saying I will only play with someone who is transgendered or I only want lieges. Some of the most amazing people I have met on here were either once one gender and are now another or they are lieges.

I am not saying that anyone has to play with a gender they are uncomfortable with but...it seems a bit unfair to leave out an entire section of people just because some are not quite sure what gender they are...some were born in the wrong body...some just don't really see gender as that important. But what ever someones reasons are...maybe just try and keep in mind that they are all just people. Your genitals don't make you who you are. Not all men are rapey misogynists...not all woman are emotional nut bags...not all trans people are weirdos...they are all just people who like to write.

I touched on this in an earlier reply, but it seems to me that Lieges frequently end up as, for lack of a better term, collateral damage in these situations.

Whether it's a comfort issue or a "men write better men/women write better women" issue pretty much every time I see someone state their preference for who the writer behind the screen is it's sold as straight dichotomy between ladies/lords. In the group game that found itself in the recent upswing of discussion on this topic it was "Ladies only"... and when discussion of it came up most of the reasoning was about why they didn't want Lords involved. If you go through O&O's that want a partner to be a certain gender it's people saying partners should be a Lord or a Lady.

Which leaves Lieges rather out in the cold. I'm not sure I've once seen a rationalization given for why a "Lord only" or "Lady only" story excludes Lieges; if an explanation is given it's to why Lord or Lady was excluded.

And yes Lesbian games will attract some guys who are like hurr hurr gonna see some girl on girl action...but also some guy on guy games might get a woman hot? Is that wrong? Yes the lesbian porn thing is much more well known but..that does not mean its wrong does it..sex it hot and awesome and feels good. Boobs are comfortable and magical. Penises are wonderful things too. so are vagina's and hairy chests..they are all just people in the end wanting to play.

I'm not sure I'd want to put too much money on it but I'd be happy to place a small bet that on E there's more M/M stories with two female writers then there are F/F stories with two male writers.

[AndyZ]

Here is my issue.

Not everyone is comfortable with everyone else. And that is okay. There is nothing in the rules that says you have to write with whomever approaches you. No one here forces people to write with everyone else.

It’s perfectly fine that there are those here that can write with whomever, whenever. It’s perfectly fine that there are some who want to write only with those that define themselves as male. It’s perfectly fine that there are some who want to write only with those that define themselves as female.

I am really struggling to understand why there is so much angst about this. Yes, I understand that there was a group game that denied someone because his tag said Lord and the group game was for females only. But, really? All of this angst when you can simply say “well shit, that sucks. Let me look and see if I see another game I am interested in.” or “Well damn, let me work on setting up my own group game that is similar to this one so I can play this idea.”

We are all adults here, we should all be able to respect the limits and comfort levels of our fellow members. I mean, to me, this whole thread feels like a shaming tactic. I am sure the OP did not mean it that way, but after so many threads about this same topic and the reasons given not clearing anything up, it really does come across as a way to shame those whose preferences do not match everyone else.

This went from venting about a group game being set up that requests Lady tag only to trying to call this discrimination and trying to compare it to businesses when it should have been simply understood that the preferences of the GM and those involved in the game take precedence over someone’s feelings getting bent because they cannot join something that was clearly not set up for every member of Elliquiy.

Iniquitous Opheliac, I'm not sure I can explain any better, but I'll try.

People have different perspectives on what they consider to be good and evil, and those axes are very different for different people.

For you, it's perfectly natural that a thread on Elliquiy can choose which particular people they want but that a bar cannot.  You have no difficulty in accepting that a game can decide not to have any men, but that a store cannot decide not to have any men. 

“well shit, that sucks. Let me look and see if I see another game I am interested in.” or “Well damn, let me work on setting up my own group game that is similar to this one so I can play this idea.”

is acceptable to you.

“well shit, that sucks. Let me look and see if I see another store I am interested in.” or “Well damn, let me work on setting up my own business that is similar to this one so I can work with this idea.”

is not acceptable to you.

Now, personally, I've never had an easy time as accepting something is right just because that's what the law says.  For example, I don't feel that women should not be allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia.  Sure, that's what the law says there, but that simple proclamation that some humans decided to create that law does not in and of itself create an acceptable reason from my perspective.

You've already given your demarcation, which is different from other people's, and I'm not saying that that's bad.  I'm not sure I'd want to force a prostitute to have to take any and all comers regardless of her own preferences, but we can agree to disagree there.

Honestly, most of the time I have these talks, I'm not looking to change other people's perspectives.  I like to see how other people think.

Roulette's perspective in particular is fascinating to me.  It's unusual, but that doesn't make it bad at all.  Ebb has quite another, and it seems to hold up with what most people consider.

I would much rather people were open and honest with discussions.  If someone does honestly believe that a particular type of people are inferior, I'd love to sit down and have a discussion on the matter, find out why they believe so, and maybe convince them otherwise or maybe not.

Now, I personally have some concern about the concept that I'm free to do whatever if I'm not being paid and am forced to do something if given money, but that doesn't mean I don't like your belief system.  Certainly others have used that method, and I can't help but be reminded of hierodules.

Now, the thing I do tend to question is consistency, which is a whole different ball game.

Nearly 20 years ago, in Salt Lake City, the school board got a ruling from the Supreme Court that either they had to allow a gay-straight alliance club or disband all their clubs.  They chose the latter.

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19960222&slug=2315413

Now, I'm not saying it was the right decision, but I can see how it's fair.  If you don't allow the GSA club, at least you're not allowing ANY club, and there's a consistency there.

When we have consistency, we can look at the broad effects of a particular rule instead of attempting to apply them on a case by case basis.

When we don't have consistency, we have people laying down rules that they don't themselves follow because they set the rules with such arbitrary distinctions that they can still do whatever they want.  For example, Nancy Pelosi can do stuff that would get me put in jail for insider trading, because she is a politician and I am not.  I would not consider being a politician as being a good reason to allow insider trading, because it's not consistent with the reason of why we don't allow insider trading.

http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/congress-trading-stock-on-inside-information/

Now, the reason that there's been so many threads is because people keep wanting me to start it over.  The last thread ended when I was asked to start up this separate thread and then they locked the old one for some reason.

However, I've never been one to shy away from a topic.  So many people have different and interesting ideas that it can be fun to take them apart and see what others think.  I've never been one to consider a matter so thoroughly closed that no one can ever enter in at another time and offer another perspective.

I tend to find these conversations a lot of fun, but I'm also used to dealing with people that know that I'm not trying to upset them and that I don't always understand their point of view.  I would like to hope that you know the same.

[Cycle]

It's not just like I'm being called a bigot. It's like people are saying I should be shamed by everyone else.  ...  I appreciate people who will write with anyone and wish that I had the same desires as they do. But the belief that I am a bad person because I am not like them is very hurtful.

You are not the only one that has said these threads have made them uncomfortable or hurt.  This is the main reason I remain vocal on the subject.  To the extent I can, I want to prevent people from feeling the way you do.

A thread bashing people who don't have an “anyone and anything welcome” policy would make me stop posting requests, and maybe stop coming here at all. If that thread does exist, please don't show it to me.

Such a thread existed, and I believe the original poster apologized for using the words "bigot."

A rule banning anyone from asking for what they desire and are comfortable with would make me so uncomfortable that I would leave the site.

You are not alone.  ImaginedScenes and others who may read this, please note that E's Staff has stated its position on this issue is as follows:

Quote from: Blythe on September 19, 2014, 08:23:48 PM

We'd like to mention the following:

* Firstly, we understand that everyone on Elliquiy has their own personal comfort level. No one should be pushed outside of their comfort zone, and we do not advocate that this be done. Elliquiy has always fostered a culture of safety and comfort and will continue to do so.  No one can make another person write with them. For those who are open to crossgender writers, this is awesome. For those who are not, this is their prerogative. This can be disappointing for those who feel they have missed out on a great writing partner or group, but we are a diverse site with many crossgender writers and those accepting thereof.

...

(From Staff)

I added the highlights above.

[Amelita]

I saw the Rainbow Writer tag mentioned and since I'm commenting on that, I'm gonna weigh in with my two cents.




In my point of view, this whole matter boils down to one single, very simple, thing.


All of us come here to write. We all have different things that make writing fun, and keeping it fun is the goal, correct?


What those things are is nobody's business unless it harms others in some way.


Posting an ad about a game is not an open invite to every single person on the board. It's a hunt for a writing partner (or partners) who will come together and create a story based on what is outlined in said ad.

Some seem to feel all angsty over not being included as a prospect in some game because you have this or that badge on: Unless you feel angsty about not being included as a prospect in some game for all the other reasons (knowledge of a setting comes to mind, preference for certain kinks comes to mind as well) I don't see that as a problem on anyone's part but their own. Writing is a personal thing, a tool to express creativity which is one of the most intimate things you can share with other people at times. It's not something you do as service to others (such as the very nature of businesses is -and comparing a shop to a game is ridiculous to me), and you're never obliged to include anything or anyone.

I recently started a group game on here. I didn't even advertise it. I just sent out PMs and I've even denied people from joining for the sole reason I don't know them/don't have a good experience writing in games with them. That particular game is not meant as a way to get to know new writing partners (for me), but to enjoy writing with the ones I know work well together.  I suppose I just horribly excluded about 5000 people, didn't I? What's the population of E again?

Key word in the example above: enjoy. I wouldn't write on E if I didn't enjoy it. If I were forced to write with people I don't feel like writing with, I'd be gone in two heartbeats, let alone if I were forced to advertise for them.

Personally, I feel perfectly comfortable writing with lords, ladies and lieges and with them writing whatever kind of character they wish. Some are not as comfortable writing with whatever gender for whatever reasons. Unless they harass or offend those they are not comfortable writing with, they've done nothing wrong. You can't force anyone to be comfortable with something, or force them to prefer something other than they do.

Their writing, and who they do it with, is none of anyone's business but their own. They are not here to service every member of E by opening up their creative outlets to include them all. They are here to write and have fun. If you happen to not be what they are looking for, you go find something else to take part in. Or start your own thing.



Well... That got longer than I meant it to be.

Anyway.


The Rainbow Writer tag.
This has nothing to do with who you choose to write with. It has nothing to do with what kind of writing you do.

It has everything to do with how you view your fictional world. If you imagine people of various sexualities, genders, ethnicities, shapes, sizes, believes, etc, could have a place in your fictional worlds, regardless of whether you write them as your main characters or not, you fall under what I wanted the tag to stand for. It's about awareness and a reminder, not a statement of what you choose to write smut about >.>

I just wanted to clarify that.

...carry on



Edit:
Cycle's quotes from staff pretty much sum up my point. Thanks for that one

[Blythe]

Now, the reason that there's been so many threads is because people keep wanting me to start it over.  The last thread ended when I was asked to start up this separate thread and then they locked the old one for some reason.

To clarify, the reason for this new thread, AndyZ, is that your previous thread delved into PROC-related type discussion, which goes here rather than the B&U. Some people don't really wish to discuss discrimination and other controversial topics in the B&U, hence the move to PROC.

The old one was locked so there weren't two discussions going on at once on the same topic in two different subboards, which would have been...confusing and chaotic at best trying to keep discussion straight. I hope that helps as an explanation?

*slips out of thread*

[Valthazar]

What do people think about this Adult Socializing rule? :

No socializing thread should restrict who can and cannot participate. This means there shouldn't be any ladies-only, lords-only, lieges-only, this-group-of-friends only, etcetera threads in Adult Socializing. When you exclude, you hurt others; we don't want anybody to feel alienated because so-and-so didn't want them or didn't include them.

Again, for the sake of debate, what do the people saying they only feel comfortable writing sexual scenes with lords, ladies, or lieges feel about the fact that XXX-rated AS threads can't be gender exclusive? (threads which arguably are more cyber-sex/arousal oriented).

[Kythia]

What do people think about this Adult Socializing rule? :

Again, for the sake of debate, what do the people saying they only feel comfortable writing sexual scenes with lords, ladies, or lieges feel about the fact that XXX-rated AS threads can't be gender exclusive? (threads which arguably are more cyber-sex/arousal oriented).

I'm for it.

The socialising threads are different from the games.  There's nothing on E preventing me you and bob starting a thread in one of the roleplaying sections that is functionally identical to one of the adult socialising threads - the three of us dicking around "out of character" - and limiting it just me, you, bob and Lords.  Or whatever.  The game sections are the place for that, the adult socialising is for everyone.

Yanno, IMHO

[Cycle]

What do people think about this Adult Socializing rule? :

Again, for the sake of debate, what do the people saying they only feel comfortable writing sexual scenes with lords, ladies, or lieges feel about the fact that XXX-rated AS threads can't be gender exclusive? (threads which arguably are more cyber-sex/arousal oriented).

Nothing until you asked. 

But now that you have, I would say my RPs more personal, and a XXX-AS thread is little more than flirting and goofing off. 

I don't invest much time in an AS-thread response.  It is just spur of the moment.  But for a RP, I will study my partner's O/Os, make sure I understand their limits, talk to them about the nuances of their Ons, search 30+ minutes for images, and try to craft scenes that hit their specific hot buttons.

Also, functionally, even in a XXX-AS thread, people aren't forced to interact with anyone they are not comfortable with.  If A doesn't want to spank B, A can just wait until C posts in the thread and spank C.

[Amelita]

That brings me back to the Rainbow Writer badge.

I put it on because I wanted to say that I like to write a variety of characters when they are not the main characters.

After reading some of the comments people made on different threads (not the ones referenced in this thread, either) I felt like I needed it to protect myself from being called a bigot.

Now that I have participated in this thread, I want to remove it because I feel like it might send the message that anyone who doesn't write diverse characters in some way in their stories is an immoral or bad person.

That is so not what the message is about ><"

In fact, I attempted to clarify this in my previous post.

The Rainbow Writer tag.
This has nothing to do with who you choose to write with. It has nothing to do with what kind of writing you do.

It has everything to do with how you view your fictional world. If you imagine people of various sexualities, genders, ethnicities, shapes, sizes, believes, etc, could have a place in your fictional worlds, regardless of whether you write them as your main characters or not, you fall under what I wanted the tag to stand for. It's about awareness and a reminder, not a statement of what you choose to write smut about >.>

But I don't want to derail the thread, apologies.
-scoots out-

[AndyZ]

Amelita, I give you permission to derail the thread.

[Oniya]

Also, the difference between having to set up a new thread versus setting up a new business should be pretty clear:  Setting up a new thread requires less than an hour of typing, and maybe a PM to someone asking if they mind if you make an alternative version of their idea that is open to all (for politeness's sake).  Anyone with a way of entering text can do that.  (I was going to say 'two fingers' before I remembered Dragon Speech-to-Text.)

Setting up a new business requires start-up money, legal paperwork, real estate (if just a room in your house), tax forms, raw materials and so forth.  This is not an option that is available to everyone.

[Valthazar]

If Adult Socializing is usually about both sex in general and sexual arousal, I would avoid that area entirely unless there were "___ only" threads that fit my comfort zone. Because it is a social space, that would mean I would only read a thread in which only cissexual women were posting. It would also mean that I would only read threads. I wouldn't post at all.

I'm speaking purely about the "Red Light District" - which is colloquially known as the place where people go for sexual chat (as writer, as opposed to as roleplay characters).  It just seems a little ironic that we are comfortable with Ladies-Only and Liege-Only roleplay threads, yet when it comes to threads intended specifically for sexual arousal itself, we have a "no restriction of gender" policy.

[Cycle]

In the staff quote

This still feels like I'm doing something wrong or like it's unfortunate that I exist. People who are open to everything are "awesome" but people who aren't "have a prerogative" and are "disappointing" to people and "not accepting" of others. Synonyms for prerogative are “entitlement” and “privilege” which makes it sound like I'm not welcome but I'm tolerated.

I don't think wording like that is intentional.

I interpret the Staff comment to mean:  (a) the absolute rule is that no one is forced to RP with anyone else; (b) they would like to encourage people to try RPing with others regardless of gender-tags; (c) regardless of whether you do so or not, they won't think any less of you; and (d) they want to show sympathy for Lieges/Lords/Ladies who may have had bad experiences.

To put it another way, I think the word "awesome" is a small carrot.  And there is no stick.  There's not even a twig.  Not even a splinter.

[Blythe]

I interpret the Staff comment to mean:  (a) the absolute rule is that no one is forced to RP with anyone else; (b) they would like to encourage people to try RPing with others regardless of gender-tags; (c) regardless of whether you do so or not, they won't think any less of you; and (d) they want to show sympathy for Lieges/Lords/Ladies who may have had bad experiences.

To put it another way, I think the word "awesome" is a small carrot.  And there is no stick.  There's not even a twig.  Not even a splinter.

Correct. ^^

[Cycle]

It just seems a little ironic that we are comfortable with Ladies-Only and Liege-Only roleplay threads, yet when it comes to threads intended specifically for sexual arousal itself, we have a "no restriction of gender" policy.

But Val, what about the fact that someone doesn't have to post in a XXX-AS thread in response to the prior poster?

In a RP, you can't do that.  Well, you could.  But then your RP dies...

[ImaginedScenes]

That is so not what the message is about ><"

In fact, I attempted to clarify this in my previous post.
But I don't want to derail the thread, apologies.
-scoots out-

I know that, and I appreciated your explanation. That explanation is why I wanted to use the tag. But your intention in creating the badge and my intention in using it might not come across to a person who sees it. That person might see it as representing an intent to shame because of other comments made on the forums, even if it wasn't made for that purpose and even if I don't use it for that purpose.

[Mithlomwen]

I interpret the Staff comment to mean:  (a) the absolute rule is that no one is forced to RP with anyone else; (b) they would like to encourage people to try RPing with others regardless of gender-tags; (c) regardless of whether you do so or not, they won't think any less of you; and (d) they want to show sympathy for Lieges/Lords/Ladies who may have had bad experiences.

Absolutely right. 

And on that note, staff is going to lock this thread.  There have been three threads created regarding the same subject, and we think that the debate has pretty much run its course. 

Thanks to everyone for their insight regarding the subject.