Small group, cooperative Pathfinder: starter thread

[Chulanowa]

Maybe I'll just dip into 8 different classes and wait until after we start playing to pick two to go with...

Make sure you play a goblin with a paste-on mustache if you go this route. 

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

This would be too stupid to actually play with, but as a thought experiment, I have to wonder how a character would look with only 1 level in a class for their whole career.
Especially in a gestalt game.

[kckolbe]

Well, it is actually a better idea in 3.5 than in pathfinder, and works better for skill/combat chars than casters.  I've done it before after rolling *amazing* stats in a game.

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

Well, it is actually a better idea in 3.5 than in pathfinder, and works better for skill/combat chars than casters.  I've done it before after rolling *amazing* stats in a game.

Yeah. At least in a gestalt game it's easier to fill in the gaps.

[kckolbe]

So for the paladin/alchemist, what kind of chars do you want in each form? 

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

Uh, what do you mean?

[PhantomPistoleer]

Okay, for the second game, I would like to build a Monk/Fighter.

Which is weird, because I feel like the second game is the first game, which is all right by me. 

What is character construction like for the second, less complicated game?

[Ixy]

I dunno... what do you think?  Gestalt again, or non?  Level?  Content preferences?

I could go something more like level 6 gestalt, high point-buy.  Damn, I really just want a story that goes somewhere and has something interesting happen.

[PhantomPistoleer]

I dunno... what do you think?  Gestalt again, or non?  Level?  Content preferences?

I could go something more like level 6 gestalt, high point-buy.  Damn, I really just want a story that goes somewhere and has something interesting happen.

Level 6 gestalt with a 25 point buy would be fine by me.

[Chulanowa]

So, uh. Just to check... Are there actual Pathfinder gestalt rules somewhere, or is it just a transport o 3.5 to pathfinder?

[Ixy]

I didn't really find any rules.  My understanding is this:

Skills- both classes' skill are now class skills, take the higher number of skills for the two classes (ex: if one gets 4/level, the other gets 8/level, take 8/level.)
HP, Save, and BAB: take the higher of the two classes for each
Class features: take both, at every level (class abilities, bonus feats, spell-like powers, spells, etc.)

I'm not really clear on combining two similar classes... like, sorcerer/wizard, I guess you get a separate spell list for each class, casting sorc spells spontaneously and prepping wizard spells?  Dang that's a lot of spells per day.  I know that the original conception, though, was to allow smaller groups to fill all class roles.

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

Even in 3.5, the gestalt rules were just kind of a hack-in for ideas for possible alternate games, and required a lot of GM thought to work out.

Another one is you can't take two prestige classes, though that's usually one I often house-ruled away when running gestalt games.
The other is you can't take a prestige class that focuses on combining two classes (i.e. Mystic Theurge).

Also, my general guideline is "how does it work in multiclass?" So for Sorcerer/Wizard, in multiclass you normally get one level of casting each. But if it's druid/ranger, you don't get a second animal companion, your levels stack.


Gestalt is one of those things I really like for versatile characters, but it comes with the fact you just gotta accept it'll be wildly imbalanced since some choices just complement better.

Multiclassing itself can get really complicated too since the game isn't really geared toward that, and heavy multiclassing makes stuff like BAB and saves go all wonky if you just use the charts instead of breaking down the mathematical progression.

[kckolbe]

The second does seem more of a hack and slash, so more straightforward.

"Gestalt is one of those things I really like for versatile characters, but it comes with the fact you just gotta accept it'll be wildly imbalanced since some choices just complement better."

Gestalt does kill one aspect of pathfinder, in that it is easier to make bad decisions.  Just like in 3.5, some chars will be considerably stronger than others.  Also, when comparing normal to gestalt, treat gestalt as 1.5 levels/level.  So a level 6 gestalt and a level 9 "normal" will be about even.  The gestalt will be more rounded, but the level 9 will be more focused, no big surprise there.  My last gestalt, the magus/rogue, was built more to be comparable to a lvl 6 Magus.

"Uh, what do you mean?"

I just mean what do you want the char to be good at in each mode, and what kind of "feel" do you want from each?

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

I just mean what do you want the char to be good at in each mode, and what kind of "feel" do you want from each?

Well, they'd obviously have the same skills and feats and such. It's just, one is good, one is evil, so the paladin abilities become antipaladin abilities.
It's just a musing idea I had and not something I've thought too much into. It's probably not even what I'm looking to go for.

[kckolbe]

Well, they'd obviously have the same skills and feats and such. It's just, one is good, one is evil, so the paladin abilities become antipaladin abilities.
It's just a musing idea I had and not something I've thought too much into. It's probably not even what I'm looking to go for.

I was kind of thinking the same thing, that a different path might make more sense.  A Wizard/Barbarian or Alchemist or Investigator/Barbarian kind of gives you the same thing, especially since except for "Urban Barbarian," you can't cast spells while raging, so you get two different ability sets, and as a transmuter or alchemist, there is the same feel of magic experimentation. 

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

This was specifically inspired by the Master Chymist and it's Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde schtick. Since that already has the alternate personality, I was thinking about odd ways to play around with that. Stuff like the alternate persona maybe having a different archetype, or whatever.

[Chulanowa]

Okay so, it works like...

   Classes: You can combine two classes, but not two variants of the same class (So for pathfinder, no Skirmisher Ranger / Divine Tracker Ranger, or Cavalier / Samurai combos)

   Hit Dice: Choose the higher of the two classes' HD. A Barbarian / Sorcerer uses D12, for instance.

   Saves: For each save bonus, choose the better progression between the two classes. So a Fighter / Wizard gestalt gets the good Fortitude progression of the Fighter, the good Will progression of the Wizard, and the poor Reflex progression of both. This is the progression itself, not the bonuses, so it doesn't "stack" - a Ranger / Monk 1 has a Save lineup of F+2 / R+2 / W+2, not F+4 / R+4 / W+2.

   Base Attack Bonus: Choose the better progression of either class.

   Skills: You get the higher number of skill points between the two classes, and treat all skills from both classes as "Class skills."

   Class Features: You just combine them; Our 1st-level Ranger / Monk gets Favored Enemy, Track, Wild Empathy, a Monk bonus feat, flurry of blows, stunning fist, and unarmed strike.

   If both classes provide a feature at different levels, you get the earlier entry first. A Barbarian / Rogue gets Uncanny Dodge at level 2, instead of level 4

   Class restrictions still apply; a Paladin / Anything gestalt must be Lawful Good, for instance, a cavalier / druid can't wear metal armor, and a fighter / wizard has to contend with arcane spell failure.

   *Pathfinder Special*: Some Pathfinder classes have abilities that are similar but different - a good example is the cavalier Mount and the druid animal companion. Under Pathfinder multiclassing rules, a Druid / Cavalier multiclass character can either have a creature from the Cavalier mount list as his druid companion, progressing it with his full levels, or he can take both features, and have both a mount and a companion, though both are weaker due to splitting his levels between the two. I would suggest that for a gestalt, conflicts like this default to the simplest solution; the Cavalier / Druid gets a druid companion that can work like a Cavalier mount. Congratulations, you're riding a T-rex.

Spellcasting:

I'm easily confused

The "basic" rules say that you track spell slots separately, while the examples (Cleric / Sorcerer, Wizard / Sorcerer) say it works like Mystic Theurge "On Steroids"

On the one hand, you could have a Sorceracle gestalt, and it knows 4 level-0 oracle spells, four level-0 Sorcerer spells, two level-1 oracle spells and two level-1 Sorcerer spells. Assuming 18 charisma, it has 4 Spontaneous slots just for oracle spells, and 4 spontaneous spell slots just for sorcerer spells.

On the other hand, the Sorceracle knows all those spells, but can mix-and-match as they please; maybe they want eight sorcerer spells today. Or six oracle spells and two Sorcerer spells.

or... "kind of both" - The Druid / Cleric has Two Druid slots, two cleric slots, one domain lot. he can prepare four instances of Magic Fang if he likes (that domain slot is domain-only) but can only use his two druid slots for Summon Nature's ally - the same with Cure spells and his Cleric slots.  or... the spontaneous / prepared version of that, a Witcherer has a familiar that contains all the level 0 Witch spells, plus 3+Int level 1 Witch spells. He also knows four Sorcerer/Wizard level-0 spells, and two level-1 Wizard/Sorcerer spells. He has 4 prepared level-0 slots, two level-1 prepared slots, and two spontaneous level-1 slots. He can prepare any combination of his Sorcerer and Witch spells, and can spontaneously cast any spell he Knows or has prepared, with his spontaneous slots. If a Wizard / Witch loses their wizard familiar, they can only prepare Wizard spells; if the familiar ran off with their spellbook before getting killed, they're stuck with what they had prepared before that disaster. That sort of thing.

since in pathfinder, there are only a few classes that wholly lack spellcasting ability (Barbarian, Brawler, Cavalier, Fighter, Gunslinger, Swashbuckler) I think it's definitely need-to-know

   Multiclassing and Prestige Classes: You can multiclass with another gestalt combination or a single class, if you prefer. Prestige classes can also be used as gestalts (though again, their requiements and restrictions remain.)

   *Pathfinder Bonus*: Favored Class Bonuses; Want to just say that you pick a gestalt class as your favored class, and gain one of the following: +2 hit Points, +2 skill points, +1 HP and +1 Skill point, +1 HP and one alternate FCB, +1 Skill point and one alternate FCB, or the FCB of both classes in your favored gestalt?

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

I don't think it'd be too much of a problem to let a gestalt druid/cavalier have both a mount AND full animal companion (I imagine riding around on a horse, and then having a falcon to sic on people). Especially because the rules do give you the option of getting both if you multiclass.

Of course, a druid has a secondary option for nature's bond, so you could pick that and then have the cavalier mount. That might be simpler.


As to spells, I think the simplest approach is to just have their class progressions be different. Again, use the example of how that character treats their spells if they multiclassed.
Since if you think about it, each class's spellcasting is the result of separate path. A Cleric is empowered by her deity (giving her the Cleric spells), and a Druid is draws power from nature (giving her the Druid spells).
Likewise, a Sorcerer draws power from her bloodline, while an Oracle gets them from... divine mystery/curse or whatever.



For favored class stuff... say, pick a favored class as normal. And also, have a limit that you have a limit of favored class bonuses equal to your character level (to prevent certain half-elf/human shenanigans).






In the absence of a fixed GM, we might want to elect someone to adjudicate things like this.

[Chulanowa]

Generally, a multiclassed animal companion splits between the two classes, unless the animal in question is on both lists. And i'm just having nightmares of someone coming up with some mess like a Halfling Cavalier / Arcane Sorcerer 1, Summoner / Druid 1, and having his own actions, a mount, companion, eidolon, familiar, Summon Monster and Summon nature's Ally all flying around.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNu_kqxqbew

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

And when they hit level 7, they take Leadership!

[kckolbe]

And i'm just having nightmares of someone coming up with some mess like a Halfling Cavalier / Arcane Sorcerer 1, Summoner / Druid 1, and having his own actions, a mount, companion, eidolon, familiar, Summon Monster and Summon nature's Ally all flying around.

Against level 4 gestalts?  They'd all be fairly useless. 

[Chulanowa]

Against level 4 gestalts?  They'd all be fairly useless.

It still takes half a damn hour for him to finish his round though. 

[PhantomPistoleer]

I think I want to do a Ranger/Summoner.  o_O  Is that weird?

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

A few miscellaneous character idea...

A kitsune ninja/bard (with the geisha archetype). Anime furry extraordinaire!!

A bloodrager/antipaladin (half-orc?) whose dialogue would be entirely quoted from heavy metal lyrics.
If I don't use this one as my PC I definitely want to make it as a villain.

A swashbuckler/bard (dervish dancer archetype). Mostly built around the dancing angle, since I had the idea of a character who has a former exotic dancer before they became an adventurer.

A brawler/monk (using the stranger and martial artist archetypes). Would take the leadership feat. His cohort would be his master, a monk with the sensei archetype, who he has surpassed in power, but not wisdom. The followers would be other, lesser members of his dojo.

[kckolbe]

I don't think brawler/monk is allowed, since brawler is a hybrid of monk and fighter.  The concept is interesting, though.  Also, the bloodrager would probably make a better villain.