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Author Topic: Pope decries godless nature of modern societies  (Read 5799 times)

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Offline The OverlordTopic starter

Re: Pope decries godless nature of modern societies
« Reply #75 on: October 11, 2008, 07:01:13 PM »

So the different religions have to agree for them to be right? What logic is that? Not very good logic if differing religions like.. Christianity,druidism, Hinduism, Islam, have to agree for them to be taken a truth..

It's perfectly sound logic, but the religious won't care to hear it, because it means everything they've been taught might be in error, if not an outright fairy tale.

Let me be specific here; we're talking about the origin of life, the universe and everything. Not individual takes on history or morality.

The formation of everything we see out there had an origin, unless we're resigned to believe it was always there, and no evidence suggests that.

Cultures and religions across time all had their stories on this origin, and these wildly differ. Obviously only one answer is correct, and how arrogant for any one culture to believe they have that answer just because someone wrote it in a book or scribed on scrolls in some past age.

Now IF god is the all encompassing entity of the Old Testament, and IF he's responsible for creating us, and IF he's the active creator that directly dealt with Adam and Eve, and IF he's omniscient and omnipotent, then yes, it's quite possible he directly gave someone at some point his account of the creation of the universe to write down or pass on orally...what they did it after that point is their fault.

However, there's just no evidence to suggest there is or ever was such an encompassing divine father figure out there. People see the image of Mary on the creme filling in an Oreo cookie, or survive a plane crash against the odds, and they believe it automatically points toward the existence of the actively divine....a notion I aggressively challenge. Seeing the holy virgin in a discolored hospital window, as has recently made the news, is no more valid than a stone age culture divining the future from the perceived patterns in goat entrails.

Religion is all about cultural and temporal relevance. We define religion as a valid set of beliefs, and we denigrate mythology as a mere set of stories. However, the mythology of the classic Greek or Egyptian gods, as fine examples, were every bit as real to those cultures as the Trinity of the father, son and holy spirit are to modern Christians. Who is to say who is more right? Certainly not us...only god, if he's there at all, can answer that one. We attempt validity in our mythologies by giving very likely false accounts of direct pipelines to the creator, but we don't give proof. The faithful simply imply they don't need proof, and thus we have very circular non-logic in play.

In some future point, perhaps not yet, but inevitably at some point, Christianity will pass into history as well...it would be the height of naivete to assume it won't because 'it's actually correct'. At that point, it too will be seen as mere mythology.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2008, 07:05:24 PM by The Overlord »

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Pope decries godless nature of modern societies
« Reply #76 on: October 11, 2008, 08:42:58 PM »
Well, we'll shall see what we shall see.

Offline The OverlordTopic starter

Re: Pope decries godless nature of modern societies
« Reply #77 on: October 12, 2008, 12:45:52 AM »

And we'll know it when we know it.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Pope decries godless nature of modern societies
« Reply #78 on: October 12, 2008, 08:31:14 AM »
There's a lot of ways they can be paralleled for sure. Now, the obvious one is what you just mentioned; let there be light is the Big Bang. However, the way modern physics is explaining the Big Bang, it really wasn't a bang at all, not an explosion but rather an unfolding of space from a singularity that then rushed headlong through an Inflationary period. It was incredibly hot and dense and wild with energy, but being as atomic particles did not yet exist as we know them; it was simply too hot for them to exist, and this included photons, light wasn't really the issue.

Later on some 300,000+ years in the era of the CMB, then the universe became transparent for all those first generation stars and nebula to throw their light across the universe, and by all accounts those first stars were massive things that burnt themselves out in millions of years, perhaps even thousands. The earliest transparent universe would have been too chaotic, crowded and teeming with radiation and energy for anything to ever evolve or survive to see it, at least nothing with consciousness to appreciate its splendor, but it must have been blinding and shocking to behold.

Well I've said it too many times to count. What's a day to God?

Offline The OverlordTopic starter

Re: Pope decries godless nature of modern societies
« Reply #79 on: October 12, 2008, 10:06:40 AM »
Well I've said it too many times to count. What's a day to God?

That interpretation is well known, it could have easily been fit into seven days just to line it up with a week, but then again 7 is a value that carries particular significance in the Bible overall.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Pope decries godless nature of modern societies
« Reply #80 on: October 12, 2008, 10:42:00 AM »
Quote
Most faiths have incompatible beliefs here, and most believe they are correct, which proves them all in error.

 This is what you said. *points up* By your words, they ALL have to agree or none of them are right. That's pretty specific.

 No one knows for sure what is right and what isn't, but people will always believe in something. It's their right. Religion is here to stay, so you might as well get used to it.

 
Quote
Now IF god is the all encompassing entity of the Old Testament, and IF he's responsible for creating us, and IF he's the active creator that directly dealt with Adam and Eve, and IF he's omniscient and omnipotent, then yes, it's quite possible he directly gave someone at some point his account of the creation of the universe to write down or pass on orally...what they did it after that point is their fault.

 IF that person if from one of the many Christian and Islamic denomination, they will have a belief in that, but there are many other religions that are not of that belief.

 It is coming through in your posts you have a very strong dislike for Christianity, even a hatred since you are doing everything to slam that religion. Perhaps youi don't but the tone that is coming through is a fairly hostile one that is ignoring any good that religion has done. all the concentration is on the bad. It's not going away anytime soon. Let people believe what they believe and as long as it does not affect you personally, let it lie. A secular society has been PROVEN to be as bad as anything a religious one can be, and as good to.


 
 Om a side note, should people who have strong convictions, be allowed to run for office? Should a religious organization be allowed to use public facilities like any other non taxed organization?
« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 10:47:44 AM by Zakharra »

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Re: Pope decries godless nature of modern societies
« Reply #81 on: October 12, 2008, 11:05:24 AM »
That interpretation is well known, it could have easily been fit into seven days just to line it up with a week, but then again 7 is a value that carries particular significance in the Bible overall.
Seven is not just a Bible thing either. It's always carried some strange mojo with various peoples' of the world.

Offline The OverlordTopic starter

Re: Pope decries godless nature of modern societies
« Reply #82 on: October 12, 2008, 07:28:27 PM »
This is what you said. *points up* By your words, they ALL have to agree or none of them are right. That's pretty specific.



Um, no, that's your take on it. I said they can't be all be right becuase they all give widely varying versions of what they think the truth is, and in fact, none of them may be right. They don't all have to agree to be right, they just just have to stop pushing the deliberate ignorance. That's the problem with relionists who pretend to play the scientist, becuase many times they honestly believe they got it right, and modern science flushed their junk right down the drain. I'm talking about individuals and denominations that keep pushing ignorance, such as the Earth being less than 10,000 years old, etc. or the 'Intelligent Design' museum that was opened in Kentucky, IIRC.




 No one knows for sure what is right and what isn't, but people will always believe in something. It's their right. Religion is here to stay, so you might as well get used to it.



Yes it's their right, but they damn well better keep of my doorstep, or better keep their beliefs from affecting me. Likewise I'm here to stay...more specifically, people that think like me, some have been in very prominent positions, such as Dr. Sagan that I find myself quoting so often. Religion best get used to the fact we're not going away either.


 
 IF that person if from one of the many Christian and Islamic denomination, they will have a belief in that, but there are many other religions that are not of that belief.

 
I was using the Christian concept of god as a mere example.



 It is coming through in your posts you have a very strong dislike for Christianity, even a hatred since you are doing everything to slam that religion. Perhaps youi don't but the tone that is coming through is a fairly hostile one that is ignoring any good that religion has done. all the concentration is on the bad. It's not going away anytime soon. Let people believe what they believe and as long as it does not affect you personally, let it lie. A secular society has been PROVEN to be as bad as anything a religious one can be, and as good to.


No, not a dislike or hatred for Christianity as a whole, but for some denominations, yes. I'm not keen at all on the Baptists in this corner of the country, because they do want to exert their values widely, even to the local laws. As an example, outside Atlanta proper there are counties that forbid alcohol sales on Sundays for obvious reasons, and some in different areas of the south that make it a dry county altogether.

So yes, I hate, hate is good sometimes. Sounds a little 'Sithy' but sometimes we need to hate. In plain English who the fuck is any religionist to tell someone what they think is best for them? I'd like to see the bad that Christianity has done all swept away, then you'd be left with a perfectly respectable faith, but too many that practice it are pricks that have to push their bent on others.


 Om a side note, should people who have strong convictions, be allowed to run for office? Should a religious organization be allowed to use public facilities like any other non taxed organization?

Most Presidents that got in office belonged to one denomination or another. That the people I vote for have religious convictions is fine by me; where I have a problem with it is when they try to push it into law and apply it to all. The Founding Fathers left Europe and made a very deliberate effort on separation of church and state for a reason, and if we forget that we're setting ourselves up for our next Civil War.

It's one reason that keeps me consistently away from voting republican, because they often talk about 'supporting their values', and we all know what means, or what it can lead to.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 07:29:41 PM by The Overlord »