Pope decries godless nature of modern societies

[The Overlord]

Wrong. It's had a longer amount of time to rack up death and misery, but the last century has seen at least over 100 million deaths. Counting WWI, WWII, the deaths from the Soviet's actions and Maoist China. 100 million in a 100 years.. That beggers anything the religions have ever done.

No. Wrong perhaps.

Even if war in the 20th Century warfare claimed more lives total, and that debate is still very much unsettled, religion has been an anathema on the entirety of human history, and that certainly can't be refuted.

[The Overlord]

Again their really hasn't been any evidence produced here in favour of saying that being without religion is somehow beneficial. All I've seen are extrapolations from the point "I don't like religion" which is a personal opinion sure. However, if your attempting to say the Pope is wrong about decrying godlessness then you really should come with something better than "Religion sucks" as that's about as intelligent an argument is "are so and are not" as there isn't anything of substance to be dealt with.

Then I can only conclude you are either vision impaired, or unwilling/unable to take in what your eyes just read.

I have stated my reasons, I haven't simply said I hate organized religion. My view may be an opinion, but it's more than a personal opinion, because I know or have known many people of a similar perspective. You really ought to sit down and chat over a few drinks with my brother and I on this one.


Likewise, it's erroneous to say I hate religion across the board; rather, I hate what many people do with it. I hate them, at the very least.

[The Overlord]

I was raised Roman Catholic from the time I was born up until around the age of 13.  I gave up the whole church thing shortly after my Confirmation, and started looking for a truth that made sense to me.  My grandparents still have a picture of Pope John Paul II in their bedroom, right up there with the Last Supper and the crucifix. 

The Pope is there to make these resounding pulpit-pounding speeches in order for the Catholics to feel better about feeling guilty.  Catholicism is based on the notion that everyone, everywhere, at every time except for those magical five seconds between when you pay your penance and think dirty thoughts about that hot blonde secretary at the office you'd really like to bend over the desk, and anyone elected to be the titular and iconic head of that faith is going to trot out the words to keep you feeling like you need to pay for your spiritual crimes.

The truth is, the Catholic monolith is dying.  By giving end-of-days, every-nation-is-godless speeches, the Pope is trying to revitalize the church.  My province is three quarters Irish descent - you know a lot of us come from old school Catholic stock.  But not many young people go to church anymore to listen to how we're all sinful evil bastages; certainly no one I know goes anymore.  Even my grandfather, arguably the most devout Catholic I know, has stopped going to church because he disagrees with the abandonment of what he calls the "True Mass" ie: when they still spoke it in Latin, and the priest never once faced the congregation. My grandmother still maintains the faithful Sunday worship, but god forbid, she's not going to be around forever, nor are her friends who go to mass with her.

The old blood's trickling out, and new blood isn't coming into the church fast enough to keep the numbers steady.  Studies have shown that people find religion after horrible experiences and end-of-days hysteria.  If the Pope can incite some of that "OMG! I'm a sinner and I don't want to go to hell, I need God to help me out right now!" rhetoric, in the uncertain global and economic environments, he's going to.  The Church can't make any money unless people are giving their pocket change and small bills to the collection plates.

** Note: This is all my own opinion, which is heavily shaded with my own experiences of being raised in the Catholic tradition.  If you're Catholic, good for you. I have nothing against you. After all, I'm a godless heathen, so what do I know? **

I too grew up in a Catholic setting; my parents' families were both Catholic and so naturally we were in that environment. I attended a Catholic elementary and high school.

I've been in it, I've seen it, so don't anyone here tell me I don't know about it. I'm not quite sure where it began to unravel, but I began to realize Catholicism, and later Christianity in general, for the skein of misinformation and control it is.

I've really not spoken on this, but a religious retreat I had my senior year in high school may have been the last straw. The false sense of theology and camaraderie between those attending was in retrospect disturbing to see. A teacher said after the fact that anyone that felt it wasn't 'real' needed to understand it was the devil talking.

Famous last words and older-than-the-hills crapout. Nothing genuinely godly occurred in that span; only a false sense of euphoria and, for lack of a better word, rebirth. Some of the Christians I've been around disturb the shit out of me, they have a certain demeanor or sense about them that's very difficult to nail down, but you can see they're not entirely mentally playing ball like they need to be. Not to dig up old dung, but this is why I refuted prior claims on these boards that anyone can be sucked into a cult. I've been through the smoke and mirrors, and recognized them for what they were. To use a nice Christian analogy I've been through the valley of darkness, and at the end I reached the light.

The light of a wider perspective, the light of unfettered analytical reason.

[Inkidu]

I don't abide any denomination of Christianity that doesn't spare the little children. Unborn children or those not baptized go to hell... but to be fair I was told it was a very nice part of hell.

[Rhapsody]

I don't abide any denomination of Christianity that doesn't spare the little children. Unborn children or those not baptized go to hell... but to be fair I was told it was a very nice part of hell.

I didn't baptise either of my sons, though I know my grandparents would have loved for me to.  I didn't want to choose their religion for them.  If, when they're old enough to decide for themselves that they want to be Catholic, well, that'll be their choice.  I may be their mother, but their basic spiritual paradigm is not something I feel I have the right to decide for them.

And if it turns out I'm wrong, at least we'll all be together for the annual Hell Hootenany.

[The Overlord]

I don't abide any denomination of Christianity that doesn't spare the little children. Unborn children or those not baptized go to hell... but to be fair I was told it was a very nice part of hell.

You were told...exactly.


See here's the problem...all the alleged accounts of Hell describe it as a not so very nice place. A very nice part of Hell...so, that would be like, what...Guantánamo Bay prison...North Korea? Compton, California? Siberia?

This makes the case on how whacked out Christianity can be. If little children can be found guilty of something they had absolutely no control over, then god is either malevolent, and/or the universe is stark raving mad.

Using the argument, we're not meant to know or understand that, or not even to question it is a farce. Bullshit is bullshit no matter what your reality.

It takes only a rational mind to come to realize this; and this is not to imply no Christians are rational or capable of analytical thought, but it ultimately comes down to rationality vs. the literal fear of god they instill in you. Sadly, not everyone wins this battle. It's easy to understand the control factor, once you've stepped outside of it under your own power. Let me tell you something; that is true strength.

[Inkidu]

You were told...exactly.


See here's the problem...all the alleged accounts of Hell describe it as a not so very nice place. A very nice part of Hell...so, that would be like, what...Guantánamo Bay prison...North Korea? Compton, California? Siberia?

This makes the case on how whacked out Christianity can be. If little children can be found guilty of something they had absolutely no control over, then god is either malevolent, and/or the universe is stark raving mad.

Using the argument, we're not meant to know or understand that, or not even to question it is a farce. Bullshit is bullshit no matter what your reality.

It takes only a rational mind to come to realize this; and this is not to imply no Christians are rational or capable of analytical thought, but it ultimately comes down to rationality vs. the literal fear of god they instill in you. Sadly, not everyone wins this battle. It's easy to understand the control factor, once you've stepped outside of it under your own power. Let me tell you something; that is true strength.

There are denominations that (as do I) there is a time of innocence that is lost when the child finally realizes and comprehends that they've sinned. (Broken one of the Ten Commandments.) I don't believe in the spiritual powers of baptism either. It's an important part of being a Christian but I believe that it is accepting Jesus as your savior that makes you saved not water.

[Rhapsody]

See here's the problem...all the alleged accounts of Hell describe it as a not so very nice place. A very nice part of Hell...so, that would be like, what...Guantánamo Bay prison...North Korea? Compton, California? Siberia?

Lord, no! Not Compton!

This makes the case on how whacked out Christianity can be. If little children can be found guilty of something they had absolutely no control over, then god is either malevolent, and/or the universe is stark raving mad.

Take an eye for an eye, but be sure to turn the other cheek.  Love thy neighbour, unless it happens to be a leper.  Children should die for their fathers' sins, but no one should kill them for it.  And the righteous will flourish like palm trees, but then perish in horrible ways.

The Bible is full of contradictions, and I don't think that's either a malevolent god or a ravingly insane universe.  I think that's a lot of people putting their political and ethical spins on the stories they'd been told for generations and this is how it translated onto paper when someone finally got around to writing it all down.

A lot of belief systems are worth it, if you take the diamond and brush the coal dust away.  While I'm personally against religion, I'm all for faith, as faith can bring you a lot of peace and comfort through some pretty nasty situations and painful circumstances.  It's when it's taken to extremes that it becomes a massive problem.

[Methos]

Then I can only conclude you are either vision impaired, or unwilling/unable to take in what your eyes just read.

I have stated my reasons, I haven't simply said I hate organized religion. My view may be an opinion, but it's more than a personal opinion, because I know or have known many people of a similar perspective. You really ought to sit down and chat over a few drinks with my brother and I on this one.


Likewise, it's erroneous to say I hate religion across the board; rather, I hate what many people do with it. I hate them, at the very least.

You've really offered nothing here besides you're opinion that religion is a tool to control people. And a personal ancedote that you didn't enjoy Catholicism. You've also stated you believe Europe's declining religosity is a good thing. Although ironically its not really becoming less religious its simply becoming Islamic instead of Catholic or Prodestant. And if you dislike Catholicism try Islam on for size.

But really there is cogent argument here that illustrates religion is a bad thing. You seem to take the matter as an a priori fact. I state quite simply if you have some argument to make, make it. For at the moment you've offered nothing more than an opinion, which as they say are much like assholes. Claiming I'm blind or willfully ignorant of your argument is amusing as there is no such organized thing presented, merely a ranting negative response to an article about the pope.

Nor is it particularly persuasive to ignore the fact that explicitly godless credos are responsible for more death than religion ever managed. All you've managed is that "religion was bad for longer" and numbers are meaningless. Yes, well Overlord lets not let things like "facts" get in the way of this analytical reasoning you seem to be fond of.

[The Overlord]

Yes, well Overlord lets not let things like "facts" get in the way of this analytical reasoning you seem to be fond of.

OK wise guy, want to call me out in my own thread, I'll turn it around on you. Prove to me that society wouldn't be better off without religion.

I've made my argument; the control and corruption factor that came with large organized religion is too high a price to pay for any benefits derived from it. Any takers?

Want to talk to me about facts? Best get your own straight first...like your assumption that I want to turn society toward 'atheistic hedonism'. Where the hell did that that come from? I don't like the church's opinion on sex, drugs and rock & roll etc. and that means I think we should focus society on that exclusively?  Because that's what you're saying. Probably better get a stronger grip on your definition of terminology before you start slinging it about.


Main Entry:
    he·do·nism
Pronunciation:
    \ˈhē-də-ˌni-zəm\
Function:
    noun
Etymology:
    Greek hēdonē pleasure; akin to Greek hēdys sweet — more at sweet
Date:
    1856

1 : the doctrine that pleasure or happiness is the sole or chief good in life
2 : a way of life based on or suggesting the principles of hedonism

[The Overlord]

Claiming I'm blind or willfully ignorant of your argument is amusing as there is no such organized thing presented, merely a ranting negative response to an article about the pope.

Nor is it particularly persuasive to ignore the fact that explicitly godless credos are responsible for more death than religion ever managed. All you've managed is that "religion was bad for longer" and numbers are meaningless.

Thank you very much, now I have my proof that you're not reading things through.

As I have already stated, you are making an assumption here. Societies that are not based on religion and those that actively stamp it out are apples and oranges...I'm talking about the former and you are interpreting it as the latter.

And just because you eliminate large organized religion does not mean your society is 'explicitly godless'...once again you're making a critical assumption here and not thinking widely enough. People don't need organized religion to be religious or spiritual...that's just more propaganda that the big clubs want you to think.

Myself, I am agnostic. I don't rule out god one way or another, but I know the organized faiths are critically wrong in metaphysical belief, because they're all mutually exclusive enough to cancel each other out.

[Methos]

I'll point out here that you never bothered to make any distinction between religion and organized religion. In fact you were praising the decline of religion not, that of 'organized religion" and the Pope spoke of 'godlessness" not "unorganized godliness". So you're either changing direction in midstream here or you didn't think through where you were going with this.

I'm aware of what the definition of 'hedonism' is. On the other hand you clearly grasped the prevailing connotation for it, so I fail to see how the definition is relevant. As for where that assumption comes from, you've decried all religion and equivicated on whether any morality was necessary to guide people's lives. As such 'hedonism' is a fair inference.

Actually I have read things though. You simply aren't making logical or valid arguments. You have a string of opinions through out here in this thread that aren't really supported by anything. They aren't even really organized and in the last couple of posts have even become contradictory. As at this point you've gone from suggesting that religion itself is an evil tool for control and oppression to suggesting 'organized religion is wrong'.

And since you've been arguing again "religion" I'll point out its definition.

re·li·gion (r-ljn)
n.
1.
a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

None of that explicitly requires organization. On the other hand, human beings as Aristotle suggested are social creatures, thus religion becomes organized.  Do people need, organization to be religious? No. On ther other hand you haven't asserted anything aside from your somewhat inconsistant opinion that religion or organized religion is wrong.

Furthermore, you don't 'know' that organized faiths are wrong because they have various doctrinal disputes or worship different gods for that matter. Its intellectually lazy to say "the religions of the world don't all agree so they must all be wrong". That sort of reasoning extends to any argument in which case if everyone participating can't agree everyone is wrong? That's absurd. Furthermore, when dealing with such things only one person need be right. Nor does any person need to be entirely write, as undoubtedly there are different intrepretations of whatever is 'right'.

[Inkidu]

Lord, no! Not Compton!

Take an eye for an eye, but be sure to turn the other cheek.  Love thy neighbour, unless it happens to be a leper.  Children should die for their fathers' sins, but no one should kill them for it.  And the righteous will flourish like palm trees, but then perish in horrible ways.

The Bible is full of contradictions, and I don't think that's either a malevolent god or a ravingly insane universe.  I think that's a lot of people putting their political and ethical spins on the stories they'd been told for generations and this is how it translated onto paper when someone finally got around to writing it all down.

A lot of belief systems are worth it, if you take the diamond and brush the coal dust away.  While I'm personally against religion, I'm all for faith, as faith can bring you a lot of peace and comfort through some pretty nasty situations and painful circumstances.  It's when it's taken to extremes that it becomes a massive problem.

That's very Old Testament you see in the New Testament Jesus comes along a fixes a lot of the discrepancies. Though you have to realize much has been omitted by the politics of the time.
Sad though it is. 

[Zakharra]

No. Wrong perhaps.

Even if war in the 20th Century warfare claimed more lives total, and that debate is still very much unsettled, religion has been an anathema on the entirety of human history, and that certainly can't be refuted.

Warfare in the 20th century has claimed more lives in a shorter period of time that at any point in human history. Mostly because of the modern weapon systems, but also because of the people and governments that pushed for war. Germany, Japan, Italy, the Soviets. They are responsible for more death and destruction than at any other point.


Yes it can. It HAS brought peace and a stability to many through out the world. It has done good things. Given a morality that hasn't always been lived up to, but has formed a basis for people to start at. Religion is anathema to those that hate or dislike it. Therefore those people see it as bad and unneeded. Religion has had more time, thousands of years, for it's problems to be seen, as well as the good things too.

[Sherona]

Unlike Overlord, I do not take it as a personal agenda to "open" the eyes of the religious. I don't believe that those who are religiously inclined have proved beyond a shadow of a doubt there is some higher being, and i don't believe that the atheist have proven it either. SImply because a little issue of "god created everything..including the science that refutes him. God is incomprehensible to mortal minds so we often attribute aspects, morals, or other human things to him so that he can be more comprehensible (i use him, if there is a supreme being it could be him , her, they, it, who knows..) to our minds" argument. *shrugs* I don't think anyne will ever be able to prove it from etiher side simply because of the faith that religious people have.

that being said. The reason why I don't think I have any right to try and take religion away from anyone, I don't have any right to sway people..is because religion is a source of peace and comfort to most people...not the loud mouth gonna get all the attention idiots out here giving their religion a bad name. Who am I to try and steal that from them?


We all hate it when religious people "preach" to us, and try to "convert" us..but I find it amusing that those who rally and hollar about this do the sam ething..try to convert religious people to aethism...its all the same thing.

*shrugs* I let religious people ahve their faith..if that is what helps them through this world, then its a good thing. Its only bad when bad PEOPLE use it as a tool.

[Mathim]

South Park did a very good episode on this subject; the message ended up being a very good one.

Humans are humans. That's it in a nutshell. In that episode, everyone became atheistic and yet there were still factions and conflict over trivial things and differences. Religion unfortunately isn't the only culprit for our pettiness so worldwide loss of faith and enlightenment won't end our reign of self-destructiveness.

Here's something I don't get though, that I was reminded about when someone mentioned unborn/unbaptized children going to a nice part of hell. Perhaps some expert on Catholicism perusing this adult-themed forum can enlighten me? Sorry, that was my bad attempt at a joke. Anyway, my question is; I've been told that most people go to hell even though they're nice people at heart. They just aren't quite nice enough, or nice in the right way, to get into heaven. So my boggle is, does anyone truly deserve to burn for eternity? That seems like a harsh motherfucking punishment for someone who, say, never murdered anyone, right? How does the Catholic church justify their belief and worship of a god who has such a seemingly warped sense of justice?

[Rhapsody]

Anyway, my question is; I've been told that most people go to hell even though they're nice people at heart. They just aren't quite nice enough, or nice in the right way, to get into heaven. So my boggle is, does anyone truly deserve to burn for eternity? That seems like a harsh motherfucking punishment for someone who, say, never murdered anyone, right? How does the Catholic church justify their belief and worship of a god who has such a seemingly warped sense of justice?

Quoth Bartleby:  "I remember when eating meat on Friday was a hell-worthy offense."

They justify it through fear.  If you're afraid enough of something, they'll conform to what you think their ideals should be.  And just like any part of society for good or ill, ideals can change over time.  Remember when it was fashionable to be a little hefty?  Yeah, me neither, but it was, once.  The term "rubenesque" has lost a lot of its old meaning and has gained some decidedly nasty overtones (ahh, denotation versus connotation, an old favorite argument of mine), but at one point, it was the standard of beauty.  Nowadays, it's the thin, perfect models they always show as society's "standard". 

It's much the same with faith.  You don't go to hell for associating with a woman menstruating anymore, because society deems it acceptable.  If you want a bacon double cheeseburger for lunch on Friday, you can eat it without worrying for the state of your immortal soul. 

I don't argue whether or not there's a God up there; I believe in something, but defining that something holds no interest for me.  For argument's sake, let's say it's the Catholic God.  I don't believe He has a warped sense of justice at all; it's just that pesky thing called "free will" He freely gifted us.   A couple of people with enough power and education frightened the unwashed, huddled masses into believing that everyone is born tainted, and if we die without being brought into the light of God, we're sent straight to to a burning place, no matter if we're ten seconds old or ten decades old.

I don't buy into original sin, it's one of the major fundamental differences I have with Catholic dogma.  I find it hard to believe that on one hand, there's a God that made us in his image, in his perfection, but he's petty and cruel enough to let everyone everywhere be stained for all eternity... until some magical water washes that sin away.  I prefer to believe we have a tabula rasa when we first come into the world, and it's how we conduct ourselves during our lives that differentiates where we spend our afterlives.

I'd go so far to say that God had nothing to do with the Bible.  Man had to do with the Bible on God's behalf, and man is innately imperfect in his understanding of the Divine.  So politics, economics and personal ethics had to make up for the understanding he lacked when he wrote the Good Book.

[Mathim]

There's that 'free will' bullshit again...my answer to that is, what about gay people? They aren't given a choice and yet, whoa, get out of the road before some over-the-hill Catholic tries to splatter your impure hide all over the place. That's why I never give the free will argument any stock. No one would ever CHOOSE to be gay, knowing all the hardship they'd face for it. I have this discussion all the time with my best friend, who is gay and he definitely agrees on that point, although he doesn't necessarily agree with me about there being no such thing as spirits or deities.

[Rhapsody]

There's that 'free will' bullshit again...my answer to that is, what about gay people? They aren't given a choice and yet, whoa, get out of the road before some over-the-hill Catholic tries to splatter your impure hide all over the place. That's why I never give the free will argument any stock. No one would ever CHOOSE to be gay, knowing all the hardship they'd face for it. I have this discussion all the time with my best friend, who is gay and he definitely agrees on that point, although he doesn't necessarily agree with me about there being no such thing as spirits or deities.

Whoa, whoa, whoa... where did I say that being gay was a choice?  Free will grants about as much choice for your sexual orientation as it does for your hair color - you can choose to do things about and with it, like dyes, surgeries or hormone regimes, but you can't change its base state simply because you want to. 

[Mathim]

That's not what I meant, what I was trying to say was, if there was a god giving us free will, that makes no sense because in the bible there are numerous references to homosexuality/sodomy/whatever you want to call it being sinful. So why the hell would some all-loving deity purposely create people to have the desire in their hearts to engage in that 'sin'? That doesn't sound like giving someone free will to me.

[Rhapsody]

That's not what I meant, what I was trying to say was, if there was a god giving us free will, that makes no sense because in the bible there are numerous references to homosexuality/sodomy/whatever you want to call it being sinful. So why the hell would some all-loving deity purposely create people to have the desire in their hearts to engage in that 'sin'? That doesn't sound like giving someone free will to me.

I think you missed my point, hun. 

I'd go so far to say that God had nothing to do with the Bible.  Man had to do with the Bible on God's behalf, and man is innately imperfect in his understanding of the Divine.  So politics, economics and personal ethics had to make up for the understanding he lacked when he wrote the Good Book.

[Mathim]

That's not the god/bible most people believe in. Most people are the ignorant/idiots. Their bible is the one they've practically never opened, their god is the one they always pray to for blessings rather than to help others. The majority have ruined it for everyone, there's too much bad blood to ever be washed away.

[Inkidu]

The majority have ruined it for everyone, there's too much bad blood to ever be washed away.

Well that's the exact opposite of Christianity.

[Mathim]

Not from where I'm standing. If you ask me, a history of stoning unbelievers to death and whatnot, a god who flooded the world in a mass genocide, etc., that's what Christianity is and always has been all about.

[Inkidu]

Not from where I'm standing. If you ask me, a history of stoning unbelievers to death and whatnot, a god who flooded the world in a mass genocide, etc., that's what Christianity is and always has been all about.

Oh no, lets forget the people stoned to death for believing in Christianity, or the genocides committed by non-religious people. No lets just blame it on religion that's easier. Because their God doesn't show up to defend himself so what have I got to worry about.