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Author Topic: Lets all Get along.  (Read 1671 times)

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Online Lustful BrideTopic starter

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Re: Lets all Get along.
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2014, 01:22:48 PM »
Yup.  :-)

As I always say "If you are going to hate someone/something. At least try to understand it first."

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Lets all Get along.
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2014, 03:09:26 PM »
Before you insult someone, walk a mile in their shoes.

Because then you're a mile away and they're barefoot, so they can't do anything about it.

I'm bad at giving advice.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Lets all Get along.
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2014, 03:10:47 PM »
Before you insult someone, walk a mile in their shoes.

Because then you're a mile away and they're barefoot, so insult them all you want.

I'm bad at giving advice.

I mourned the fact that I had no shoes, until I met a man with no feet.

And I asked him 'Hey, got any shoes I could have?'

(So am I.)

Offline Lux12

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Re: Lets all Get along.
« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2014, 12:30:07 AM »
I do want to live in a world where people get a long. I would love to live in a world where people will get together and love one another like that old song says. However, we can't have that world until the system that creates these terrible conflicts is abolished. It is true when so many activists say no justice no peace. However, this is a vision worth striving for.

Online Lustful BrideTopic starter

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Re: Lets all Get along.
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2014, 12:43:30 AM »
I do want to live in a world where people get a long. I would love to live in a world where people will get together and love one another like that old song says. However, we can't have that world until the system that creates these terrible conflicts is abolished. It is true when so many activists say no justice no peace. However, this is a vision worth striving for.

I personally believe in non violence. Except when youre living under an oppressive regime like North Korea for example. I would cheer on NK rebels if they rose up.

It isn't really the systems that create conflicts, its the people who abuse them and use politics, religion, economy, race, as a way to incite violence and use it for their own needs at the expense and pain of others. They are the ones who are the problem, but at the end of the day it is the people who give them power.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2014, 12:49:05 AM by Lustful Bride »

Offline Steampunkette

Re: Lets all Get along.
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2014, 04:18:15 AM »
It's a cool idea, but it won't help.

Online Lustful BrideTopic starter

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Re: Lets all Get along.
« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2014, 08:06:44 AM »
It's a cool idea, but it won't help.

Many other people have been told the same, all that's needed is to put forth the proper effort and try. :-)

Online Silk

Re: Lets all Get along.
« Reply #32 on: October 12, 2014, 05:35:33 PM »

Online Lustful BrideTopic starter

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Re: Lets all Get along.
« Reply #33 on: October 12, 2014, 05:37:48 PM »

Offline Sheoldred

Re: Lets all Get along.
« Reply #34 on: October 12, 2014, 06:29:19 PM »
Many other people have been told the same, all that's needed is to put forth the proper effort and try. :-)

We can never have peace on this Earth because some people squirt ketchup all over their french fries instead of dipping them. What kind of a monster does that?

Offline Steampunkette

Re: Lets all Get along.
« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2014, 02:11:57 AM »
"Be nice to each other" is great and all. Worthy goal.

But it ignores the massive and systemic problems that exist in our world.

Racism, sexism, classism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism, and other problems aren't just interpersonal issues between individuals. We're talking about laws and social customs and beliefs that are structured and codified into our society that create massive burdens that are seen as common, normal, or just "The way things are."

Getting along is all well and good when it's two people in our society being polite and nice and sweet to each other on an individual basis. Hell, it can even work with expanding groups up to small crowds.

But when all the people who are part of the privileged majority go home to normal everyday fine and dandy life, the minorities have to go home to the hell that our society has created for them.

"Be cool to each other" is great. It just won't help.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Lets all Get along.
« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2014, 10:12:08 AM »
The thing is, if you're set on being good to each other, you want those people you are being good to - regardless of race, creed, gender, orientation, or whatever arbitrary division society has imposed - to have a good life as well.

So you do things.  You write your government officials about issues that wouldn't necessarily impact you (as a member of that privileged majority) - like straight people fighting for gay marriage, or cis people fighting for trans* rights, or voting for school funding when you don't have any kids. 

Talk should lead to actions, not hand-wringing.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Lets all Get along.
« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2014, 11:22:45 AM »
My problem with "Can't we all just be nice?" is that it turns into tone-policing, and tone-policing supports oppression. Historically, nobody has gotten rights by asking politely for them - it happens by getting angry, holding people accountable for their actions, and demanding equality. Responding to righteous anger with "Can't you just be nice?" is siding with the oppressor against the oppressed.

Offline Marchoisas

Re: Lets all Get along.
« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2014, 02:28:04 PM »
Lets all get along. A beautiful ideal. But unfortunatly thats all it is. Reality is quite diferent.

My problem with "Can't we all just be nice?" is that it turns into tone-policing, and tone-policing supports oppression. Historically, nobody has gotten rights by asking politely for them - it happens by getting angry, holding people accountable for their actions, and demanding equality. Responding to righteous anger with "Can't you just be nice?" is siding with the oppressor against the oppressed.

Very much agreed. History teaches us that "being nice" in most cases equals to being perceived a victim. Much as it shuldnt be that way, *not* being nice is how goals and rights are achieved. Thats just how the vorld works, and changing that wuld probably mean changing human mindset as a whole. Asuming thats even possible, vhich I doubt.

And also agreed on Steampunkette's point about societal makeup also getting in the vay of "being nice". Religions, politics, pursuit of power, territorialism, in adition to the elements she already listed are all prety much making it near-imposible for people to be nice to each other on a global level. And all those elements stem from primal human nature, vhich, unfortunatly, is anything but nice as a general rule.

Offline Steampunkette

Re: Lets all Get along.
« Reply #39 on: October 13, 2014, 02:59:13 PM »
Weeeeellllll... I wouldn't call it Primal Human Nature.

We honestly have no idea what real human nature looks like. We have ideas, and we talk about it like it's a thing.

But to have human nature clean of societal impact we'd need to give birth to a group of children and never allow them human interaction beyond each other in a completely sterile testing environment to monitor their behaviors as they grow and interact.

No language. No people beyond themselves. No cultural expectations. Just living all by themselves.

And, of course, we can't do that to people. It's truly monstrous and unthinkable. What we think about as "Human Nature" is actually thousands of years of capitalist society being applied to cultural norms. Greed is a trait of "Primal Human Nature" because we're trained from birth to perceive objects as owned and that objects can be traded for other objects. So of course it's best to get as many objects as possible so you can have enough for ... whatever.

It's a really tricky thing that we've constructed for ourselves.

Though yeah: Being Nice doesn't fix systemic oppression.

When the Suffragettes stood in front of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue with white placards with black writing on them, absolutely silent, it was unthinkable and rude beyond all measure and they were thrown into paddy wagons for doing something so vile. In the 1960s African Americans had to march in the streets for their rights and were met with firehoses, lynchings, and riots. All the while they were told to go home and be quiet. Be nice. Stop being so rude.

Would women have gotten suffrage if they didn't say anything? Would blacks have had their rights to work, school, and equal treatment respected if they'd just stayed quiet and were nice about it? It's how they'd been trying to get things done for a long time.

“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.”
― Elie Wiesel

“If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse, and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality.”
― Desmond Tutu

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Lets all Get along.
« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2014, 03:03:59 PM »
I'd say it's less "primal human nature" that causes these problems - we're pack animals. That includes at least some measure of altruism and cooperation. It's more the nature of game theory and the organic development of our society. Basically, betrayal can pay off hugely, and we have little to nothing in the way of controls against this.

Offline Steampunkette

Re: Lets all Get along.
« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2014, 03:23:45 PM »
Exactly! In a true tribal or pack society betrayal is immediately met with the worst punishments that can be meted out. Violence or exile.

We've developed a society where the same result occurs (corporal punishment or prison) but disassociated ourselves from the betrayal through webs of comical deceit. And thanks to the total number of people in the world it's easy to move to a place where your betrayal is unknown. Where in the wild a pack animal divorced from it's pack would NEVER be accepted into another pack except as a form of underclass.

I mean, think of the Alpha Male human mentality. It's based on study of wolves. You know what's terrible about that, though? Wolves don't have Alpha Males.

At least not in the wild. The behavioral studies that lead to the Alpha Male designation were completely bullshit. They took individual members of multiple packs and forced them into an environment where they could only survive by working together with non-pack members. This created a situation where leadership and control were commodities fought over and the Alpha Male structure formed. In a real wolf pack? No such beast. It only exists in Captivity.

Like female mantises biting the heads off their mates. They only do that when nervous and are nervous when scientists are watching them bone in a tiny terrarium far from the forest they know they should be in. I imagine you'd be nervous, too, if a group of giants were peering at you while you get freaky.

Offline Sheoldred

Re: Lets all Get along.
« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2014, 07:10:07 PM »
Quote
Like female mantises biting the heads off their mates.

Kinky.

Offline consortium11

Re: Lets all Get along.
« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2014, 08:01:06 PM »
I think rather than the ease and rewards of betrayal it's simply a question of ease.

If everyone's being nice,polite and friendly then someone can come to me and in a nice, polite and friendly manner complain that... I don't know... it's wrong that I refuse to hire black people or that I sexually molest every female employee while threatening to fire them if they don't submit. They can explain to me in a nice, polite and friendly manner why that's wrong and why I should change my ways. And I can in a very nice, polite and friendly way either tell them that I can't be bothered and they should leave or try to mollify them with sweet words and pretend like I'm going to do something... and then not.

And if they come back in a month (any sooner might be badgering and thus not nice) I can do the exact same thing again. Nothing changes. It's no hassle, it's no burden, it's no issue. I can keep going on just as before apart from the fact that every so often I have to have nice conversations about it. Why would that bother me?

Now, if instead of having a nice conversation I was dealing with protestors outside my office every day, massive petitions, complete infamy etc etc, suddenly it becomes something that I have to deal with.

Being nice and "everyone get along" works well when discussing ideas in somewhat of an ivory tower because it allows the dialogue to progress. But actually at the coal-face when campaigning? If everyone in the world was utterly reasonable and willing to change maybe it would work... but history tells us they're not and they won't.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Lets all Get along.
« Reply #44 on: October 13, 2014, 08:11:00 PM »
I'd say high rewards are a factor - there are people out there who wouldn't normally betray, but when you put all the money on the table in front of them, that becomes a factor. Which is large swathes of the finance industry in a nutshell.

Offline Kythia

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Re: Lets all Get along.
« Reply #45 on: October 14, 2014, 03:39:06 PM »
I really don't feel "tone-policing" as an argument works so well now we have the internet.  While I accept Ephiral's argument about direct action, the internet is a different medium for dialogue than has ever really accepted.  The issue is readily apparent in consortium's example.  People on and on, haranguing you all day about hiring practices or sexual harassment or whatever the fuck it is they're whining about now is indeed something that can't be ignored in real life.  On the internet though, there's a wee red cross in the top right of my screen that makes all your arguments magically go away.  If you want to change my mind using the internet you have to phrase your argument in a way that I'll bother to listen to and be receptive to, and its unlikely that anything in an aggresive tone of voice - anything that could be "tone policed" meets that description.  Tone-policing is certainly a bad thing if we're talking about face to face real world stuff, but in a medium where its so easy to live in a nice fluffy world where noone ever disagrees with you and all my friends on the forums at iamahomophobicandracistemployer.com agree that you folk are ghastly, its less of a valid criticism I think.

Building outrage amongst your "side", real world protests, etc - great venues to get mad and get in your face.  Genuine disagreement on the internet?  Tone is important.

Offline Steampunkette

Re: Lets all Get along.
« Reply #46 on: October 14, 2014, 05:12:17 PM »
And that's the greatest privilege you have: Ignoring the problem!

Or, at least, it's right near the top. It doesn't hurt -you- so why the hell should you care that other people are getting killed, beaten, harassed, or discriminated against.

And that's why "Neutrality" sides with the oppressors. Because doing nothing doesn't fix the problem. Pretending their isn't a problem is willful ignorance. As is intentionally ignoring it.

Kythia's comments about tone policing are, without a doubt, the finest example of the problem possible. Either you provide her with an education she LIKES or she'll ignore you. She's even convinced herself that clicking the little red box is any different from changing the channel on a TV, or the radio before that, or just walking past protestors and sneering as they "Whine" about their problems.

A fantastic example of how not to act. How to stand to one side and make demands of people you're already enabling the harm of.


Offline Ephiral

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Re: Lets all Get along.
« Reply #47 on: October 14, 2014, 05:39:05 PM »
The thing is, Kythia... sure, I might not be able to convince you. (I might; there are actually examples of people going "Holy shit that pissed people off, maybe there's something to it", but I'll admit that's the minority.) But on the Internet, there's an audience for every conversation. Even if I don't convince you, I help build my side - which translates back into real-world action. I cite the example of harassment policies at atheist conventions as an example of greater real-world equality brought on directly by righteous anger on the Internet.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Lets all Get along.
« Reply #48 on: October 14, 2014, 07:21:56 PM »
I am going to remind everyone that calling out individuals with personal attacks go against Elliquiy's civility rules.  You can all make your points without pointing fingers.

Oniya - for Staff

Offline Formless

Re: Lets all Get along.
« Reply #49 on: October 14, 2014, 09:50:42 PM »
Or, at least, it's right near the top. It doesn't hurt -you- so why the hell should you care that other people are getting killed, beaten, harassed, or discriminated against.

While I salute Lustful Bride for creating this thread and for the pure intention of it.

Regarding the portion I've quoted. The answer is simple.

Because no one cares if we get killed , beaten , harassed or discriminated. Unless it is someone whom shares a great bond.

A kind word online to someone who expressed how troubled their life is , does not make you a saint. It only shows sympathy to something you've happened to stumble upon. Which is good , but shouldn't be mistaken for more than what it is.

Everyone human has the right to a selfish daily life. You can't and you have no right to expect everyone to sympathize with any problem , no matter how grand it is. Because their life could be filled with things problems you're not aware of. And certainly whatever you express about it wouldn't change it for them.

People choose what to sympathize with. And they choose what to overlook.