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Author Topic: The Purpose of Charity  (Read 4969 times)

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Offline Valthazar

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Re: The Purpose of Charity
« Reply #125 on: January 30, 2014, 01:56:29 PM »
There. Fixed that.

I don't agree with many of the religious right's views either, but our interpretation of what a devout Christian is, is equally as valid as theirs.  The only point I was making is that they are certainly a very charitable bunch.

Offline TorterrableTopic starter

Re: The Purpose of Charity
« Reply #126 on: January 30, 2014, 02:06:32 PM »
Another point I want to bring up now that charity is somewhat defined.

Would we consider those who donate money or time without the intention to actually help (or that their intention is mostly something besides helping) still charitable? Or are they not doing charity, but business?

If I donate money because I want to look good and reap tax benefits, but I don't really care where my money is going towards, am I still charitable, or am I merely "purchasing" the reputation and tax benefits?

There's more to this, of course; what about donating to a political campaign, if I believe that the political campaign is going to be good for the future of humanity?

Offline Oniya

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Re: The Purpose of Charity
« Reply #127 on: January 30, 2014, 02:48:59 PM »
Not my particular Book, but since the topic was raised, I might throw a quote out:

'Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. ' (Matt 6:1-4)


In a more secular sense:  If you donate just to look good, it's going to probably show in other ways (like chucking money at charities but voting to cut unemployment benefits).  People notice this, and then they realize that you're chucking money around just to look good, but you really don't give a damn.  That respect that you've just tried to buy is probably not going to be delivered.

Offline Paladin101

Re: The Purpose of Charity
« Reply #128 on: January 30, 2014, 05:32:45 PM »

Paladin101: I take no insult from what you have said. I would, however, like to correct your inference about me; I have simplified my edited hypothesis into biological terms so that I may have a better way to explain it. Originally, biology did not come up at all. For one thing, the predisposition that I thought biological actions were the basis of all humanity did not arrive until fairly recently in the argument, and I use the "half of my body for my brother" as an example of how I think the thought process of altruism might work.

You may think its petty and insulting, but I think that humans are biological machines as well as social animals. You focus on the social part, I tend to believe the biological part is more applicable for the true background of human nature. That being said, I do not mean to discount the social side of it. I have already admitted, multiple times, that I do indeed lack the experiences to be completely well read on the subject. Nevertheless, I still attempt my foray into it because I want to know, even without these experiences. Would it not be preferable for all of us to learn without having to experience? For us just to know?

Your concept of "soul" is a completely different and hard for me to comprehend idea. Again, the biological stimuli that you so hate is just an oversimplified example to explain a thought process that is much more complicated. The vague feeling of this thought process (as I do not quite know it yet) seems to be "I love humanity, and want it to live and continue in a good way". This feeling originates because we consider humanity to be family, and we want it to continue "us", which would also mean continuing "me". Did that make sense? We do charity because we want humanity to continue and be happy. We want that because we want humanity to keep "ourselves" alive somehow.

I am also curious as to why you think being biological "cheapens" us. We are biological; when we are born and how we are made is a purely biological process. It is only recently, though, that we have begun to internalize that idea...but that is a whole different story.

Why do I think your hypothesis cheapens humanity? Simple. Your stated belief is that all of our actions have a root in biology. That somehow, everything we do is the result of our genetics, instincts, or chemical reactions in our body. That is a very easy way to remove all responsibility. And to remove all sense of accomplishment.

Let me give you my example, from my life.

I was raised in an abusive household until my early teen years. By that time I was a hollow, shell of the person I was meant to be. I was convinced everyone was out to get me, afraid to speak to almost anyone, was convinced I was unable to perform basic tasks without someone else present to tell me how to go about them(for example, emptying a dishwasher. I was convinced unless I had someone there telling me where to put everything, that I couldn't do it, because I would make a mistake. Because in the past, my stepfather would stand there and tell me how to unload the dishwasher, and scold me for any misplaced item.) I was battling constant depression so bad, that my mother recognized the signs that I was thinking of suicide, and intervened to talk to me to let me know where my head was going.

At this point in my life, I made a choice. I CHOSE to correct my personality, I CHOSE to fix the flaws that had developed, and fill in this shell with the things I knew I should have. I forced myself into large social situations, forced myself to do things that terrified me, and made a concerted mental effort to battle my depression, isolate the things from my past that were haunting me, and get them out of my head. There are still scars on my psyche to be sure, but I am a self made man. I made an act of personal will to overcome my difficulties, to face my problems, and to forge myself into what I wanted to be in life. I can quite literally say that I am EXACTLY the man I want to be, because I worked hard to become who I am.

However, if I believed the beliefs you espouse, I didn't do a damn thing. What really happened was my instincts took over and made me do it. Or some chemical reaction evened out my mind and made me into what I am. It wasn't me, it was nature.

If I went out and stabbed someone with a butcher knife, by your belief I am not responsible. Nature made me do it, my instincts got confused or there was a chemical imbalance that made me go kill someone, it wasn't that I simply CHOSE to go murder someone.

That is why the beliefs you are choosing to believe disgust me. They remove all sense of personal choice, personal responsibility, and personal accomplishment. The mind is not a biological organism. The brain is, but not the mind and psychologists differentiate between the two for a reason. The mind is something we can't locate, we don't know what part of our brain holds our mind, only that it's there. We think, we decide, and as a result our biological bodies DO. But it is in our minds that the decisions are made, it is in our minds that choices are considered. We don't do something just because it makes us feel good, we do it because we choose to. Now yes, some people CHOOSE to do good things because they enjoy how that makes them feel, but you can't lump all people into a single group, and say we all do it because we are biologically rewarded, because some of us simply aren't wired that way mate.

Again, I am not trying to be insulting or offensive, I was just trying to answer your question to the best of my ability.

Offline TorterrableTopic starter

Re: The Purpose of Charity
« Reply #129 on: January 30, 2014, 06:14:49 PM »
Paladin101: Can they not coexist, though? And I am not saying that, because we are governed by biology, that we are not responsible for the things we do. While biology and chemistry do play an inherent part of our actions, there still is the conscious choice of what we do. Biology, neurotransmitters and neurons, Pavlov's dog-type behavior, and the stages of development as defined by various psychiatrists govern the very basis of what we do. They lay the foundation, so to speak. Again, to use the hunger analogy: I am hungry, so I eat. This is biologically governed; I have no power over it, and it dictates what I do.

I am not saying, though, that my biologically based hunger tells me to eat people or to eat kittens. It tells me to eat. I will choose what I want to eat, and thus, I make a conscious decision, and if what I choose to eat has repercussions, it falls upon my conscious choice, not biology. In a way, I suppose, we agree; the way I worded my past arguments has probably made me unclear.

However, what I want to say is that, by establishing a truth or fact that can, possibly, be centered from and/or in biology, we can branch out, grow it into a sort of "choice tree", whereupon we can infer where certain "branches" will go based upon the person's character and past choices. Think of it as a sort of psychology, as reading people. For an example: I know you're hungry; I don't quite know what you're going to do, but based on everything else I've seen of you, I bet you will eat at Taco Bell.

Sure, there is a "will", a "soul", a "mind". They make the decisions that an underlying truth (notice I don't say biology, because, when saying underlying truth, I mean human nature and what we can infer of it) dictates them to do.

Offline Valthazar

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Re: The Purpose of Charity
« Reply #130 on: January 30, 2014, 06:46:28 PM »
I think what bothers us is the fact that emphasizing 'potential' biological tendencies achieves nothing productive.

People raise their kids with values - teaching them autonomy of thought, right vs. wrong.  What does it achieve to go around emphasizing the biological basis of our behavior?  If indeed your theoretical research somehow confirms this notion of greed in charitable acts, how should we respond to that realization?  Do we accept that we are greedy and remain complacent in our behavior?  I certainly won't, because I, and many others, try to live our lives to a higher standard.

Our bodies might have evolved to gravitate towards fatty foods and meat, but I am still going to strive to eat fruits and vegetables and exercise at my own volition.  I'm not going to be complacent and justify poor eating habits due to 'biological tendencies.'  We have minds that enable to us to rise above that.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 06:49:11 PM by ValthazarElite »

Offline TorterrableTopic starter

Re: The Purpose of Charity
« Reply #131 on: January 30, 2014, 06:58:58 PM »
I agree. Our biological functions dictate what we do, and everything we do is a result of a biological function, whether we attempt to move towards or against it. But I wasn't truly arguing for biological functions.

I was making a point that all we do is dictated by something higher. By discussing the purpose of charity, I was hoping to pinpoint that higher aspect of human nature that dictates why we are charitable. If this is identified, we can consciously rather than unconsciously nurture or quash it depending. If I realize that, at the true base of most human charity due to human nature is based upon greed and evil, then I will try to shove that greed aside whenever I do charitable works. If it is good, well then, I will be happy as I try to draw out that part of me as best I can, and hope it shines through.

But in order to know what to do, we must first identify what it is. You know that fats and oils are bad for you in excess, although your body tends to want them. As such, you can guide yourself towards what you want because you can identify what you don't. On the other hand, if you didn't know that, you might just keep eating whatever you wanted whenever you wanted, without stopping to ask why or justifying it. That, to me, is why it is good to know the origin of certain human actions.

Offline lilhobbit37

Re: The Purpose of Charity
« Reply #132 on: January 30, 2014, 09:58:59 PM »
But you are asking a question no scientist has yet been able to answer.

It is the classic nature vs. nurture struggle of how much is biology and how much is how you are raised aka the experiences of your life.

Scientists still can't pinpoint where one ends and the second begins.

So to expect an answer such as this and expect to truly find some answer to your biological impulse, neuron shooting, seems farfetched and overreaching.

Offline DreamingWriter

Re: The Purpose of Charity
« Reply #133 on: January 30, 2014, 10:50:15 PM »
Wow. a lot went on after I left. I feel left out now. I still don't quite understand how and why there are still two sides to this arguing of who is wrong. No one here is wrong, nor are their views on this matter. It simply comes down to how you view things. Those who view their acts as selfless, would be right, seeing as their idea and definition of self-interest is different than say mine and Tort's. For me, I would deign anything, even the fact of you wanting to do something, no matter the base value of such an action, an act of self-interest. Even say having to kill someone to save your son or daughter. Which is off topic on this particular argument, but it gives a general idea of what I view self-interest to be. You can't say I'm wrong, because the definition of self-interest isn't something that can be defined and narrowed down to something as limited as a dictionary definition. With that same thought, the people who give to charity and believe that it is not an act of self-interest are also right, because their view of what is and is not self-interest is different than mine.

Offline Iniquitous

Re: The Purpose of Charity
« Reply #134 on: January 30, 2014, 11:02:38 PM »
Wow. a lot went on after I left. I feel left out now. I still don't quite understand how and why there are still two sides to this arguing of who is wrong. No one here is wrong, nor are their views on this matter. It simply comes down to how you view things. Those who view their acts as selfless, would be right, seeing as their idea and definition of self-interest is different than say mine and Tort's. For me, I would deign anything, even the fact of you wanting to do something, no matter the base value of such an action, an act of self-interest. Even say having to kill someone to save your son or daughter. Which is off topic on this particular argument, but it gives a general idea of what I view self-interest to be. You can't say I'm wrong, because the definition of self-interest isn't something that can be defined and narrowed down to something as limited as a dictionary definition. With that same thought, the people who give to charity and believe that it is not an act of self-interest are also right, because their view of what is and is not self-interest is different than mine.

Errrr…

Self interest (noun): concern only for getting what you want or need and not about what happens to other people.

: your own interest or advantage.

Full definition of self-interest
1. A concern for one’s own advantage and well-being <acted out of self-interest and fear>
2. One’s own interest or advantage <self-interest requires that we be generous in foreign aid>

Source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/self-interest

Now, with that said….

You can say you have a different definition of self-interest, but then I would say you are using the wrong word for what it is you are trying to convey. That is the recognized definition above, it is what I think of when someone tells me I do charity for self-interest and I am pretty sure I am not the only one who gets the negative connotation.

And based upon the recognized definition - I can, and do, say you are wrong. I will not go back into the reasons I do what I do - you can read them again if you want, but I can say that there is no self-interest (again, using the recognized definition of the word) in what I do. I find it offensive that you continue to try to label it as such and then try to hide behind the ’well, I’m not wrong because I think the word means this…’ when people step up to say “whoa, wow. Not what I do.” It’s a cop out, and that is somewhat insulting as well.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 11:04:00 PM by Iniquitous Opheliac »

Offline DreamingWriter

Re: The Purpose of Charity
« Reply #135 on: January 30, 2014, 11:09:32 PM »
But even by using the full definition of self-interest I can say that you are indeed doing charitable work for that. With many things, people can take the words that are there, and have them mean something else. For example, definition two, "One's own interest" can be taken to mean many different things. You obviously take it to mean something different than I do, which is understandable. But that doesn't make me wrong. You obviously want to do what you do. If simply for no other reason than "I want to do this" If you truly didn't want to do something, then you wouldn't do it. I'm not saying that you don't want to do it because it hurts so you simply "Don't want to." I'm saying that if you truly, under every circumstance, don't want to do something. Then you won't do it. If you want to do it, for any kind of reason, then to me it is an act of your own interest.

Offline Moondazed

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Re: The Purpose of Charity
« Reply #136 on: January 30, 2014, 11:18:43 PM »
FYI: It's rude and arrogant to try to force your views of things on others.  A much more thoughtful approach is to say, "Here's what it means to me.", then actually listen to the views of others with an open mind, instead of dismissing it out of hand by forcing your definitions on others.  Do you honestly think that you can speak for why someone else does something?

Offline Iniquitous

Re: The Purpose of Charity
« Reply #137 on: January 30, 2014, 11:21:04 PM »
So, in your mind, it is alright to just up and change the definition of any word you want to fit what you feel is right.

Yeaaaah... okay. It doesn't work that way. Sure, you can apply your definitions to yourself, but the minute you try to apply them to someone else, like me, you are going to find yourself having to defend your words.

By the way - how is it in my own interest to do what I do? Since you seem to think you know my mind and my reasons so well, based on your definition of the words, please tell me. Quite frankly, what I do does not benefit ME in any way. There is nothing to what I do that is in MY own interest. Matter of fact, it would be in MY own interest to save my money to get a place of my own, to use my free time to work on my writing, to sleep more, to spend more time doing yoga and learning meditation. Those things are in MY own interest. They benefit ME.

Offline Kythia

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Re: The Purpose of Charity
« Reply #138 on: January 30, 2014, 11:24:10 PM »
FYI: It's rude and arrogant to try to force your views of things on others.

In an attempt to bring some levity to a getting-quite-serious discussion, that made me chuckle.  Don't get me wrong, moondazed, I know exactly what you meant by it and I'm neither criticising nor, in fact, disagreeing with you.  Just a funny thing to say if read literally.

Offline Moondazed

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Re: The Purpose of Charity
« Reply #139 on: January 30, 2014, 11:25:50 PM »
:D

Levity is welcome! :)

Offline DreamingWriter

Re: The Purpose of Charity
« Reply #140 on: January 30, 2014, 11:28:48 PM »
FYI: It's rude and arrogant to try to force your views of things on others.  A much more thoughtful approach is to say, "Here's what it means to me.", then actually listen to the views of others with an open mind, instead of dismissing it out of hand by forcing your definitions on others.  Do you honestly think that you can speak for why someone else does something?

If you are referring to me, I'm not. I have already said that both opinions are correct in my first post this evening. If you have read my first post, and still feel this way, I would like to know why so I can better understand your argument.

So, in your mind, it is alright to just up and change the definition of any word you want to fit what you feel is right.

Yeaaaah... okay. It doesn't work that way. Sure, you can apply your definitions to yourself, but the minute you try to apply them to someone else, like me, you are going to find yourself having to defend your words.

By the way - how is it in my own interest to do what I do? Since you seem to think you know my mind and my reasons so well, based on your definition of the words, please tell me. Quite frankly, what I do does not benefit ME in any way. There is nothing to what I do that is in MY own interest. Matter of fact, it would be in MY own interest to save my money to get a place of my own, to use my free time to work on my writing, to sleep more, to spend more time doing yoga and learning meditation. Those things are in MY own interest. They benefit ME.

I never changed the definition of a word. I simply used the definition you provided me to a different context than you did. The fact of the matter is that no words and no beliefs have a concrete definition that can be used and interpreted the same way each and every time. While you may in fact believe your work is selfless, I would believe that it is not. That does not make both of us wrong, just right for our own definitions of what something is. As I said before, if you believe your work is selfless then you are right. Just because I don't view it as such doesn't mean I'm telling you that you are wrong in your assumption.

Offline TorterrableTopic starter

Re: The Purpose of Charity
« Reply #141 on: January 30, 2014, 11:30:21 PM »
I'm glad that this discussion is continuing, but, like Moondazed, I hope that people do their best to be careful not to misinterpret others and to merely emphasize and support their own opinions. Being misinterpreted is never a good thing. Try to keep opinions self-centered, yes? In fact, I would love to hear about more experiences that people have had with charity and what they felt. Examples are the things from whence we draw our conclusions.

Anyways, on this point, I support Inquitous Opheliac. She does not work for her self-interest because what I attempted to define as her "self-interest" is actually an interest in the benefit of humanity in general, which, at that point, can hardly be called self-interest, can it? I assume that there are more examples like hers, although perhaps not as easy to identify.

I originally assumed self-interest, but in saying self-interest, we must be careful to define it by identifying exactly what benefit to "self" it is targeting, and from there, we can judge it.

lilhobbit37: I did not mean to bring up the nature versus nurture argument, although I can see how it can be interpreted and drawn from my argument. Even though most scientists debate about which is more important, I believe that the majority of them agree as to which came first. Biology definitely develops first; genes and embryo and egg and sperm are the very basis from which life is formed. Nurture comes later as one is taken care of, although I suppose you could truly argue that it begins in the womb; still, the personality developing aspects of life come after the biological ones are already in full force.

I am not saying that nature is STRONGER than nurture (indeed, from my argument, I think you could probably infer the inverse; I state that biology can be overcome by our decisions once we are made aware of it), I am just saying it comes first.

Offline Iniquitous

Re: The Purpose of Charity
« Reply #142 on: January 30, 2014, 11:33:59 PM »
If you are referring to me, I'm not. I have already said that both opinions are correct in my first post this evening. If you have read my first post, and still feel this way, I would like to know why so I can better understand your argument.

I never changed the definition of a word. I simply used the definition you provided me to a different context than you did. The fact of the matter is that no words and no beliefs have a concrete definition that can be used and interpreted the same way each and every time. While you may in fact believe your work is selfless, I would believe that it is not. That does not make both of us wrong, just right for our own definitions of what something is. As I said before, if you believe your work is selfless then you are right. Just because I don't view it as such doesn't mean I'm telling you that you are wrong in your assumption.

You are deflecting and ignoring the question put to you.

Please, tell me how my actions are done in self interest. It is your belief, so by all means, explain it and defend it. And yes, you are telling me I am wrong by saying that the reasons I do my charity is not actually why I do it because in YOUR mind I do it for some other reason that benefits me.

Offline DreamingWriter

Re: The Purpose of Charity
« Reply #143 on: January 30, 2014, 11:38:37 PM »
I have already explained my position on the matter. I believe things are done because people want to do them. That is the basis of why people do anything. Some people will say to that "But I don't want to do it." Which I don't believe. The basis of anything that happens is a want for it. As simple as a want for survival, a want for safety. For some reason that only you know about, wither consciously or not, you want to do what you do. And for me, that is enough to place it in the category of self-interest. Your idea and definition of self-interest is not as broad as mine, and there is nothing wrong with that. I am not saying your wrong. Just that to me you aren't right. Everyone has the right to their own opinion and there are no concrete facts that can say with out a shadow of a doubt that either of us is right or wrong. We as a species do now have enough understanding of the human brain to prove such a thing. 

Offline Moondazed

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Re: The Purpose of Charity
« Reply #144 on: January 30, 2014, 11:39:11 PM »
If you are referring to me, I'm not. I have already said that both opinions are correct in my first post this evening. If you have read my first post, and still feel this way, I would like to know why so I can better understand your argument.

IO has explained her motives as fully as she possibly can, yet you pronounce that they're still done out of self interest because of the way you choose to define words.  Do you honestly think that it's ethical to define the motives of someone else?  That's what I find rude and arrogant.

Offline Moondazed

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Re: The Purpose of Charity
« Reply #145 on: January 30, 2014, 11:40:06 PM »
I have already explained my position on the matter. I believe things are done because people want to do them. That is the basis of why people do anything. Some people will say to that "But I don't want to do it." Which I don't believe. The basis of anything that happens is a want for it. As simple as a want for survival, a want for safety. For some reason that only you know about, wither consciously or not, you want to do what you do. And for me, that is enough to place it in the category of self-interest. Your idea and definition of self-interest is not as broad as mine, and there is nothing wrong with that. I am not saying your wrong. Just that to me you aren't right. Everyone has the right to their own opinion and there are no concrete facts that can say with out a shadow of a doubt that either of us is right or wrong. We as a species do now have enough understanding of the human brain to prove such a thing.

Oh my goodness, if you can't see the arrogance of this response then you truly don't understand how to engage in civil discourse.

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Re: The Purpose of Charity
« Reply #146 on: January 30, 2014, 11:40:13 PM »
I do think, assuming I've read her correctly, that there is some benefit to DreamingWriter's position.

As I understand her, she is essentially equating "self-interest" with "ones own benefit", using definition 2 of the posted definition.  Which doesn't seem too much of a stretch to me.  She's then going on to say that if it were absolutely no benefit to a person then they would not do it.  If there were no gain at all to them.

I think what you're missing, though, DreamingWriter is that IO feels - and I'm putting words in your mouth here IO so please feel free to shout and correct me - that helping a generic "other person" has, to her, the same benefit as helping her (hypothetical) sister.  Torterrable has talked in terms of kinship bonds and that's almost it.  There are certain people - one's parents, ones siblings, me - that I think any rational human would do anything they could for.  IO, as I understand her point, draws that net wider than you, as I understand your point, do.

Offline TorterrableTopic starter

Re: The Purpose of Charity
« Reply #147 on: January 30, 2014, 11:44:54 PM »
To further Kythia's explanation (thank you, by the way, for that great summary), I would like to add that IO's extension of generosity to the whole of humanity makes her "self-interest" so widespread to the point that it doesn't seem like self-interest at all, and would be better defined as, simply, "charity" or "goodness". While this may have a tie-in with some sort of basis of wanting something to benefit the self, it is so hard to identify and so focused on helping the whole of humankind that it is difficult to see which is which. The idea of "charity" seems stronger to me, though.

Offline DreamingWriter

Re: The Purpose of Charity
« Reply #148 on: January 30, 2014, 11:45:33 PM »
IO has explained her motives as fully as she possibly can, yet you pronounce that they're still done out of self interest because of the way you choose to define words.  Do you honestly think that it's ethical to define the motives of someone else?  That's what I find rude and arrogant.

As have I. I have said that she is right in thinking that what she does is selflessly. But just because something is right to her doesn't mean it has to be right to me. And I have stated that time and again. How I choose to define what people do and don't do in my own mind using my own beliefs can be done how ever I choose. I refuse to say that she is wrong, because she is not. I don't believe my words are rude or arrogant. My views are just different. I'm not telling her that she's wrong, nor am I telling her she has to see it my way. I'm just stating my belief.

I do think, assuming I've read her correctly, that there is some benefit to DreamingWriter's position.

As I understand her, she is essentially equating "self-interest" with "ones own benefit", using definition 2 of the posted definition.  Which doesn't seem too much of a stretch to me.  She's then going on to say that if it were absolutely no benefit to a person then they would not do it.  If there were no gain at all to them.

I think what you're missing, though, DreamingWriter is that IO feels - and I'm putting words in your mouth here IO so please feel free to shout and correct me - that helping a generic "other person" has, to her, the same benefit as helping her (hypothetical) sister.  Torterrable has talked in terms of kinship bonds and that's almost it.  There are certain people - one's parents, ones siblings, me - that I think any rational human would do anything they could for.  IO, as I understand her point, draws that net wider than you, as I understand your point, do.

It's not that I'm missing her point. I don't believe so anyway. I've already stated that she is correct, and I will not tell her she is wrong, because she is not. I'm simply stating that I don't view her opinion as right either. Just that we simply have different ways of interpreting the words which we are trying to use.

Offline Iniquitous

Re: The Purpose of Charity
« Reply #149 on: January 30, 2014, 11:50:39 PM »
Kythia, you pretty much have it right.

I view every person in this world to be related to me. You are all my brothers and sisters. All family to me. We are all related (not going to go into the whole biology aspect of this, it would take too long and it's too late at night for me).

And ....

Please, please, tell me what "I am not saying your wrong. Just that to me you aren't right." means. What else is there but right and wrong? If you are saying I am not right, then you are, indeed, saying I am wrong. The moment you tell me YOUR opinion of my being wrong, you are telling ME I am wrong.

I think you need to find a better way to explain yourself. You are talking yourself in circles, not answering direct questions placed to you and deflecting.

So, by your definitions here, you are wrong. You do not know why I do what I do. You do not even know me. Thus, you have no possible way of knowing what goes through my mind when I do the things I do. Just as you have no way of knowing why anyone else does the things they do. The only person you know is yourself, and in the interest of not causing strife, it would probably be better to not insult strangers by telling them they are wrong just because things don't fit your meanings.