US warships near Syrian waters

[Retribution]

Well from what I understand,  Al Qaida's big beef that lead to 911 was that when they went to the Saudis and said they would toss Saddam out of Kuwait the Saudis said thanks but no thanks we will let the US. That was the start of the big issue with  Al Qaida. In their view, again from what I have read, and such it is fine for Muslim faction to kill Muslim faction, but when an infidel gets involved then they must all band together to punish the infidel.  So once more I am inclined for the US to tip it's hat to them and say "okay have at it."

[Callie Del Noire]

Well from what I understand,  Al Qaida's big beef that lead to 911 was that when they went to the Saudis and said they would toss Saddam out of Kuwait the Saudis said thanks but no thanks we will let the US. That was the start of the big issue with  Al Qaida. In their view, again from what I have read, and such it is fine for Muslim faction to kill Muslim faction, but when an infidel gets involved then they must all band together to punish the infidel.  So once more I am inclined for the US to tip it's hat to them and say "okay have at it."

Not entirely. There was the issue of the US being in Saudi for one.  al Qaida was concerned that the royal family was going to become 'contaminated' by western influences and felt that US bases in Suadi Arabia was putting them perilously close to Mecca and other Holy sites. Ironic consider the Royals sponsored many of the Islamic schools that have developed into radical Islam.

[Dashenka]

And the nationality of most of the terrorist who hijacked the planes on 9/11 was?

What the fuck does that have to do with it? Lee Harvey Oswald was an American so all Americans are killers?

Yes Osama was a Saudi but that does that automatically mean that Saudi Arabia is sponsoring Al Qaida?

[Neysha]

Saudi Arabia doesn't sponsor Al Qaeda. Saudi Arabia merely strongly supports a series of madrasssas, schools, missionaries and Muslim religious scholar and missionary equivalents who preach an exceptionally conservative form of Sunni Islam known as Wahhabism, which in turn provides some the religious framework and underpinnings for much of the Islamic Fundamentalism themed terrorism going on, especially in regards to Al Qaeda and affiliated or sympathetic organizations.

[Retribution]

Not entirely. There was the issue of the US being in Saudi for one.  al Qaida was concerned that the royal family was going to become 'contaminated' by western influences and felt that US bases in Suadi Arabia was putting them perilously close to Mecca and other Holy sites. Ironic consider the Royals sponsored many of the Islamic schools that have developed into radical Islam.

Yeah I knew that was trying to give a shortened answer  Oddly I find the whole thought process so....strange I feel marginally insane just writing it.

[Dashenka]

Saudi Arabia doesn't sponsor Al Qaeda. Saudi Arabia merely strongly supports a series of madrasssas, schools, missionaries and Muslim religious scholar and missionary equivalents who preach an exceptionally conservative form of Sunni Islam known as Wahhabism, which in turn provides some the religious framework and underpinnings for much of the Islamic Fundamentalism themed terrorism going on, especially in regards to Al Qaeda and affiliated or sympathetic organizations.

I can't confirm that because I know too little of the middle east but it is a big difference from what is being stated in the article and from what Mia H is saying.

[mia h]

What the fuck does that have to do with it? Lee Harvey Oswald was an American so all Americans are killers?

Yes Osama was a Saudi but that does that automatically mean that Saudi Arabia is sponsoring Al Qaida?

It's all politics, nothing more, nothing else and every halfwit can do politics.

Guess that means you're half a wit short of being able to understand politics

[Dashenka]

Guess that means you're half a wit short of being able to understand politics

I'm failing to see the point you tried to make with saying Osama was a Saudi. If that makes me a half a wit short, so be it.

[Formless]

http://www.mintpressnews.com/witnesses-of-gas-attack-say-saudis-supplied-rebels-with-chemical-weapons/168135/

Its funny.  When Saudia welcomed 70% of the syrian refugee populace the moment Assad started toying with their lives. So why would they supply these weapons?

Now here's a little story that I have no idea why the media never bothered to stress on.

Long time ago , American explorers came to the arabian peninsula. They found a shitload of oil reserves within the eastern side of it. Some estimated it to be around 25% of the whole world's oil reserve. The arabian peninsula was already divided by that time. And most of these reserves were under the territory of Saudi Arabia. The Americans ' taught ' the Saudis about oil and its uses. At that time , Saudis were mostly nomads , ignorant , backwards ... you name it , there's no shame in admitting it. With the discovery of oil , Saudia was slowly growing into a modern modernized country. However , the Americans struck a deal with the rulers of Saudi Arabia ' Al Saud '. They will help them with all the necessary industries , but they get to use the oil as well. And the royal family , being so lazy , agreed to that agreement , instead of trying to learn how to do things by themselves.

Now the americans were gaining alot of benefits from this agreement. When Saddam started to play big honcho , the oil reserves were under threat. So the Americans again with their superior military prowess offered to protect the Saudi throne , but with alterations in the agreement to their side. The royal family , quickly agreed. And that meant the building of the American military bases on Saudi soils. And hence forth , the extremists started to rise. Calling to off with the American heads , but the royal family did not even listen to them. But they also did not bother to inform their subjects about this agreement. So everyone was kept in the dark. The extremists never knew the Americans were here to protect them , so they kept with their idiotic attempts to eradicate them from their lands.

All of this does not link to Al Qaeda , simply because Bin Laden never spent much of his life in Saudia. But how can you blame anyone from thinking that any Saudi is another bin laden when they bore the same nationality? Stereotypes sounds easier to people to put a label on them. To me , being from this country , I know we don't call for suicide. Jihad as people misinterprets means to die in battle. Not to commit suicide. But would anyone believe me?

[Kythia]

Saudi Arabia doesn't sponsor Al Qaeda. Saudi Arabia merely strongly supports a series of madrasssas, schools, missionaries and Muslim religious scholar and missionary equivalents who preach an exceptionally conservative form of Sunni Islam known as Wahhabism, which in turn provides some the religious framework and underpinnings for much of the Islamic Fundamentalism themed terrorism going on, especially in regards to Al Qaeda and affiliated or sympathetic organizations.

I can't confirm that because I know too little of the middle east but it is a big difference from what is being stated in the article and from what Mia H is saying.

Yeah, she's spot on.

[gaggedLouise]

Translated into U.S. terms, Neysha's point might have been that anyone who is a fiscal conservative and takes a fairly "stick-to-the-words" view of the constitution - it should be read as it is, setting strong limits of the political space, not get interpreted and 'stretched' widely to fit new times - is really a tea party zealot.

[Valthazar]

Translated into U.S. terms, Neysha's point might have been that anyone who is a fiscal conservative and takes a fairly "stick-to-the-words" view of the constitution - it should be read as it is, setting strong limits of the political space, not get interpreted and 'stretched' widely to fit new times - is really a tea party zealot.

How did you (or Neysha, if she made the assertion) reach this conclusion?  Many economic conservatives and constitutionalists would disagree with this comparison.

[Retribution]

Formless -> I will just address your post like this rather than complicate with a large quote. From reading what you have to say if I am understanding you correctly the big issue is that those who are doing the governing do not share all the information with those being governed.  That seems to be a sadly common occurrence no matter the country.  I am in no position to know, but I would surmise that another issue is that those in power have a lot of the money and those who are not have a poverty problem. That also seems common and to add to the common twist on that poverty is fertile ground for extremists.

I will not pretend to understand the various factions but from watching the news, reading, so on, I get the impression various factions are more of an issue than say nationality. I know very little about it though other than having gone to college with some people from that part of the world. Ironically most of them were from Iran, but I digress. We have extremists in the US Tim McVeigh anyone? That does not mean all in the US are extreme anymore than it means all of Muslim or Arabic persuasion are extreme.

From a strictly personal level I have to keep these things in mind and try very hard not to just blindly hate after things like 911 or the embassy killings this year for example. I would tend to imagine that like the other things is a two way street. I am sure someone in the Middle East from their perspective on the ground sees something the US or some other western country does and it is so screwed up that they really want to just blindly hate. And thus the extremists win and recruit.

So with all of the above in mind my personal POV is that in a case like Syria there is no way intervention can accomplish anything other than pissing everybody in the country off one way or another. And we have seen how that blows up in faces for example the whole mess in Iran can be traced back to the US putting "their man" so to speak on the throne way back in the day. The way you have described conditions in Saudia a lot of Al Qaeda's beef with the west could be described as a similar reaction. It all seems like a lose, lose, situation if the US intervenes with the action being ultimately symbolic and serving no other purpose. Using current events the second Iraq war was well starting on bullshit grounds so people are gun shy.  Now I am an odd cat in that I think the grounds for Iraq2 were BS but it did serve a purpose in that it bled Al Qaeda both literally and metaphorically and we are not stuck baby sitting Saddam for the next 60 years like has taken place in Cuba and North Korea.

Having said all of that. I would be -very- interested to hear your take on all of it. From the sound of it you have a perspective that would probably be much more enlightening than reading or watching the news. As a Joe average who walks the street in the US I just wonder why I am hated so by people I have never laid an eye on. So yeah after things like 911 or the embassy things earlier this year my knee jerk is "okay they want to kill us so we have to kill them first." But that is just giving in to hatred which is not a good practice. I just know after the ambassador was killed this year I was a very angry man.

[gaggedLouise]

How did you (or Neysha, if she made the assertion) reach this conclusion?  Many economic conservatives and constitutionalists would disagree with this comparison.

Exactly. My point was that Neysha's equation of a certain Saudi movement (the Wahhabites) and their interpretation of islamic law with al-Qaeda, that one seriously mixes up apples and oranges, just as one would by saying "all fiscal conservatives are in with the tea party". I'm no fan of the Wahhabites or of Sharia law, but they don't form the supporter club of bin Laden.

I believe that was what Kythia was after too, though you'll have to see how she follows this up.

[Callie Del Noire]

Exactly. My point was that Neysha's equation of a certain Saudi movement (the Wahhabites) and their interpretation of islamic law with al-Qaeda, that one seriously mixes up apples and oranges, just as one would by saying "all fiscal conservatives are in with the tea party". I'm no fan of the Wahhabites or of Sharia law, but they don't form the supporter club of bin Laden.

I believe that was what Kythia was after too, though you'll have to see how she follows this up.

No, but the core group of Bin Ladin's group started out being schooled by these people. The Wahhabites were very nationalistic (in the Islamic State sense) and religously conservative for a long period of time. The more radical Islamist movements found a great amount of support from their adherants and even today you see a lot of 'backdoor' financial support out of the Wahhabite schools and followers.

[Formless]

Retribution. Let me address this points quickly and then fixate on the current subject this thread centers upon.

The Arabian governments have always kept their people in the dark about most of their political affairs , and even internal affairs. But it all backfired at them when the media became available and fluid within their reaches. Since the rulers never bother speaking to their people , the people were quick to believe anything a foreign media source would say. And the fruition of all of it is what lead to the ' Arabian spring '. When there's a royal family ruling a country , like Saudi and the rest of the gulf countries , you'd know poverty will be an issue. That may not reflect on a country like Qatar since their population is quite small in comparison to their oil resources.

Islam and its factions though. I am not sure what to call them , some can be considered as sub-religions. Take the Shee'ah for example. Little do people know that we , as Muslims , consider them as heathens. They do not believe that Mohammed is the true prophet. ( But let's not get too deep into that ) And yet , Shee'ah , is the main belief in Iran and Iraq. So even those who actually have so much beef with the US are not even wanted by the majority of Muslims. Heck even Iran switched its attention from Iraq towards the Gulf countries after the second Iraq war. They're just not attempting anything because the US still have its own reasons to be in the saudi soils.

I have to take this one from a personal view , and say that I am human before I am muslim or a Saudi. I value the human life more than I value morals. However , some idiot thought they can bring glory or god knows what with what they did in 9/11 and that brought a shitstorm all around the world. The Americans hates us because of the 9/11 incidents. The muslims hates the American because of Guantanamo. ( That had a major impact on everyone. Sympathy was the theme when 9/11 happened , but when the US retaliated that way , Muslims didn't appreciate it. Even when it can be justified as the US being very protective of its people and land. Its just how things happened. I don't judge. )

Now for Syria , everyone is taking an interest as it serves for their own political gains. I mean people are being slaughtered every day , and they ponder if they can save them or not. Nobody gave a damn about Lybia when a strike was initiated , even when there was oil fields to hoard. So why Syria? The Arabic Joe would think ' Syria is close to Israel , so America wants to take them down to protect Israel '. Its funny how most Arabian individuals relate any political situation to Israel. What I really think? Russia , Iran and China just wants to use this incident to fortify their ideals later own. Even if the US strikes Syria , I don't think Russia or China will interfere. They'll just hold it up and use it at a later time.

With all that said , I hope I didn't drag along too much. I valued your opinion and your vision of the whole situation , and I hope I presented the ideas in an acceptable manner.

[Oniya]

It's actually very informative to hear about these things from someone much closer to what's been going down.  I knew about the conflict between the Shiite and the Sunni Muslims, but didn't realize it involved something that fundamental to the religion.

And, if you'll forgive the song reference,

'There is no monopoly on common sense
On either side of the political fence
We share the same biology
Regardless of ideology'

[elone]

Islam and its factions though. I am not sure what to call them , some can be considered as sub-religions. Take the Shee'ah for example. Little do people know that we , as Muslims , consider them as heathens. They do not believe that Mohammed is the true prophet. ( But let's not get too deep into that ) And yet , Shee'ah , is the main belief in Iran and Iraq. So even those who actually have so much beef with the US are not even wanted by the majority of Muslims. Heck even Iran switched its attention from Iraq towards the Gulf countries after the second Iraq war. They're just not attempting anything because the US still have its own reasons to be in the saudi soils.

I think you have slanted this a bit toward the Saudi Wahabbi viewpoint of things. The schism between the two sects is very complicated as you note, but the basic rift began as a disagreement over succession for leadership after the death of the Prophet. Sunni's allowed for it to be a non-relative, Shiite believed in a direct family line. They do believe in the second coming of a descendent, the Mahdi I think,  much like the Jews are waiting for the Messiah.

To say Shiite's don't believe in the Prophet would be news to them. Also, to say Muslims consider them (Shiite) heathens, when Shiite's are Muslims themselves is a bit self serving toward your own viewpoint.

This is a discussion that should have it's own thread, and not hijack this one, but I felt compelled to comment.

[Retribution]

Thank you Formeless that was indeed very informative to me. *sighs* Gitmo was and is a bad thing. Sadly I have found myself supporting it until I stop and think about it. That whole giving in to hate matter that I try not to do, but I am a human being with my own failings. Sadly the issue often turns into when dealing with say terrorists one sinks to their level trying to combat the unconventional attack but that is a whole other ball of wax. On the front of Bin Laden and his ilk that you touched on I think that you and I are on the same page in many places. I just look at that and say to myself "how to fuck did they think that was going to turn out well for them?"

I cannot comment much on the religious aspects as I have not much knowledge. I went to college with both Shee'ah and Sunni that I know of and probably a few others I was not aware of. I was in school in the 80s when there were a lot of refugees for lack of a better description. I even had   professor who that was a Sunni woman who I think liked debating me a lot because on occasion she would track me down at parties to carry on the heated discussion. But that is neither here nor there.

On the matter at hand from what I am hearing from you is that in a monarchy like your country the people are not informed. And then when they get informed they often get pissed. Understandable, and I think that is a matter for you and your countrymen to work out among yourselves. As for Syria I have no freaking idea why it is a hot button. In fact I find it ironic that the current president got in office opposing his predecessors foreign policy and now seems hell bent on imitating it. I just see no win here for the US intervening in well any political affairs in the Middle East. It seems destined to piss multiple factions off. But having said that when chemical weapons are used, people are starving, pick your atrocity for whatever reason the US gets beat up if they do not do something. Now in my mind that is the definition of insanity because it has never gone well but we keep doing the same thing expecting different results.

And thank you very much for the discussion. It was informative and helps remind me that not every Muslim wants to kill me just for breathing. I know that sounds extreme but a lot of time when I watch or read news that is the feeling I get and it does not tend to be a warm and fuzzy feeling. The world is getting figuratively smaller and we all have to live together so I keep hoping we can figure out how to do it.

[Cyrano Johnson]

Take the Shee'ah for example. Little do people know that we , as Muslims , consider them as heathens. They do not believe that Mohammed is the true prophet. ( But let's not get too deep into that )

Hm. I could stand to go a little deeper into this, actually. I thought the original break with Shi'ism was supposed to be over who Muhammad's rightful successor was -- Ali or the Caliphs -- not about who the true Prophet was?

[Oniya]

Hm. I could stand to go a little deeper into this, actually. I thought the original break with Shi'ism was supposed to be over who Muhammad's rightful successor was -- Ali or the Caliphs -- not about who the true Prophet was?

Might be best to do that in another thread (if others want to go into it), just so conversations don't get tangled.

[Cyrano Johnson]

Might be best to do that in another thread (if others want to go into it), just so conversations don't get tangled.

I shall leave that decision to the Formless if they choose to reply.

[alextaylor]

I almost support this. Someone needed to step in and it's not surprising that the US did. Syria is in so much mess that I don't think most of the world, including the Syrians themselves, would mind if they helped themselves to oil or whatever. Chemical weapons are the least of their worries.. cluster bombs and thermobaric bombs were already extremely devastating weapons.

This one could win some PR points for the USA. On the other hand, the USA is in no state to enter another overseas war and doing so could harm the US hard enough that it'd fall out of superpower status.

[Dashenka]

I can't believe people still mention oil and bombs as a reason why the US should or should not invade.


What happened to the hundreds of thousands of people suffering and starving? Is that no longer reason enough?

[Cyrano Johnson]

What happened to the hundreds of thousands of people suffering and starving? Is that no longer reason enough?

Not sure you really want to follow that path... there are people suffering and starving on a daily basis on most of the planet, I don't think we want the US dropping bombs on them all in the bargain.