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Author Topic: Criminiality- Nature Vs Nuture  (Read 1375 times)

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Offline SheronaTopic starter

Criminiality- Nature Vs Nuture
« on: June 01, 2008, 08:27:31 AM »
Quote
That and the fact that mental help would rely on it being a mental disorder - I'm willing to believe many paedophiles think the way they do because of mental issues that therapy and medicine can help with, but plenty more do not. So for the person who likes kids because they're afraid of adults and can't form proper adult relationships, that would help. But for the person who simply likes kids since birth and doesn't have the ability to not act on desires/channel them through other means (writing, watching more than half the hentai out there, whatever), or for the person who has been exposed to too much "Let's dress 6 year old children up as street prozzies! It helps them feel more grown up!*"... in those cases, there may not be a real answer other than to convince them not to act on urges

I have never subscribed to the theory of people being "born" bad. I have always held that Nuture held more sway then Nature. Most sex offenders haev a history of being sexually abused (Give me until weds when I have time to go find these statistics, its a weekend and I dont have access to much of my stuff)

I am sorry but I have seen MANY children dressed in too -old of style clothing...too much make up, too much skin showing..but I ahve never EVER had an urge to have sex with them. This just really sounds a lot like "She shouldn't have worn the mini-skirt or I wouldn't have raped her...." defense.


(if a sirens wants to bring over the other snippet of htis discussion)

Offline kongming

Re: Criminiality- Nature Vs Nuture
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2008, 11:40:38 AM »
I believe nurture does indeed play a bigger role, but I'm not sure if every single aspect to a person is covered by it - some things would be nature, and it's altogether possible that in some instances, the things people are "born with" are things that others view as abnormal - any number of crimes or simple social problems could be seen this way (with media/society being all too quick to blame the individual for suffering from something they had no control over).

As for people gaining paedophilic tendencies through children being dressed up like prozzies/adults in general, I'm not saying it automatically does make others see them as adults and attractive - that would indeed be too close to the "It's not rape if you wear a short skirt." argument. I guess what I'm trying to say is that parents are treating their kids as grown ups, the kids want more and more to seem older, and the end result is that people of a certain mental state end up getting mixed signals and very confused. It hasn't made me lust for kids either, indeed that style of garb makes me like them even less (and they already weren't on a good level). But in some cases it has. In a thread on a very reliable source 4chan, someone had mentioned child pornography. One reply was "Well how am I supposed to know they're only 6? They dress just the same as a 30 year old!"

Sure, that person was most likely just being stupid (it's the Internet, after all), but there is a bit of a problem (although the bigger issue is simple confusion in the case of "From 17 to 18, there is no obvious sign of change." - the grey area where someone may or may not be legal, and someone gets in trouble for showing interest when it later turns out the subject of their affection is in fact underaged. I'm aware that that is a separate matter, though).

In general, the point was that not everything can be helped by therapy and drugs. In some cases, a person thinks in a certain way because that's just them (a hard one to be sure of, seeing as you can really only gather how someone thinks when they can have a conversation with you or do complex enough things that watching them will give you information - by this stage, they already could have changed so much due to their environment), or because of outside factors that are still present and not going away (example: people in high school compounded my depression and made me suffer from psychotic episodes. They weren't going away, seeing as school shootings weren't fashionable back then. The problem could not be solved through talking to people or taking antidepressants, both were tried and failed), and in these cases, therapy/counselling/standard "fix your brain" drugs won't work. Proper rehabilitation (being taken away from the cause/trigger) might have more success, or it still might not.

In some cases, people either can't be fixed, or can't be fixed yet. Which is not to say that they shouldn't try, mind you.

Offline SheronaTopic starter

Re: Criminiality- Nature Vs Nuture
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2008, 12:02:18 PM »
Quote
Sure, that person was most likely just being stupid (it's the Internet, after all), but there is a bit of a problem (although the bigger issue is simple confusion in the case of "From 17 to 18, there is no obvious sign of change." - the grey area where someone may or may not be legal, and someone gets in trouble for showing interest when it later turns out the subject of their affection is in fact underaged. I'm aware that that is a separate matter, though).

This argument right here is why I am against ALL crimes that fall under the category of sex offenses being mandated to register as a Sex Offender. I know at age 16-18 I went through a bit of a attention-grabbing phase where I equated male attention=Love and security. (I am sure a psychologist or psychiatrist would have said I was seeking to replace the abrupt absence of a father figure with older men and sex....they would probably be quite right). Often times I lied about my age, telling them I was 18...but they would have been sent straight to jail do not pass go, and really was not their fault...Last time you went to a club/bar did you ask for id of someone you were dancing with?

Yet they still would have been listed as a sex offender..and would have had to register. Ican look up on teh computer and see a map of my area where a sex offender lives, red marks. Really is it fair to lay the same blanket of shame over someone wo slept with a 16 or 17 year old cliaming to be 18 as someone who /raped/ a 16 year old..or even raped a 26 year old...no its not, but for now thats the way it will be.


I do agree that some traits are genetic. The Madula Oblongata has been a source of study now, and it shows that the size and activity of said center effects the amounts of rage, violence and anger that one feels. It is said in these studies that parental genetics can factor in on the size and actiivty, meaning if a parent is prone to anger and rage then its likely teh child is....but again just like ADHD or Adult ADD things can be taught that will help control these thougths and feelings.

Though I have to agree that sometimes....some things..can not be fixed yet. Chemical castration is used I believe in some severe sex offenders.


Offline kongming

Re: Criminiality- Nature Vs Nuture
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2008, 09:04:10 PM »
My opinion on the sex offender registry is this:

If they're still a threat to society - reasonably likely to reoffend - then why are you releasing them at all?
If they're not still a valid threat to society - they seem to be rehabilitated - then they shouldn't be tagged for life.

After all, I understand that sex crimes are particularly horrific, but we don't brand people for murder, blackmail or non-sexual torture.

Anyway, I agree that even in the cases of a problem being genetic, there are often things that help, so it's important to try. Of course, if the person doesn't want help and isn't willing to try, it's generally a waste of time to attempt to help them, short of sedation, but that raises the question of "(how) can we convince them to accept help?"

Offline The Overlord

Re: Criminiality- Nature Vs Nuture
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2008, 06:39:30 AM »


After all, I understand that sex crimes are particularly horrific, but we don't brand people for murder, blackmail or non-sexual torture.


And a quite convenient thing it is too, lest most of our representatives of government and authority might be incarcerated or run out of office.  >:(

Offline ShrowdedPoet

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Re: Criminiality- Nature Vs Nuture
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2008, 09:15:20 AM »
The whole sex-offender thing is really hard for me.  The world wasn't so scary until I had a child, particularly a daughter.  Back when it was just me, I wasn't really worried about the whole sex-offender/pedophile issue.  But now it's different.  I'm scared.  My little girl is the whole world to me and if one of these people were to get their hands on her. . .well, I'd probably kill them. 

This said, I agree that parents shouldn't put their infants and toddlers and young children in sexy, slutty, show all clothes.  This is a thing that really bothers me.  Children should be dressed as children.  Putting a 2 year old in a two piece bikini just makes me sick.  I would hope the parent doesn't see anything sexual in it but an already sick and confused mind probably will.  Now, I'm not saying that it's the clothes fault, because it's not, but it probably does contribute.

Should they be tagged for life?  I don't know.  Sex-offenders are all put in one chunk together.  Not just child sex-offenders or adult sex-offenders or I didn't know she wasn't an adult sex-offenders.  It's all one title SEX-OFFENDER.  This title ruins the lives of everyone who carries it.  But sometimes it also ruins their chances of striking again.  I'm happy to know that I can check to see if someone is a sex-offender and know to keep my daughter away from that place.  BUT, this has also led to people attacking, beating, and killing people labled sex-offender, normally because they just assume that this person is a child sex-offender.  Any type of civilian justice is wrong.  I know this (even though like I said, if the bastard got his or her hands on my little girl, I'd kill him or her) and those who do it should take the punishment. . . 

This said, I think they should label the sex-offenders as child, adult and so on.  There are people labled sex-offender just because they were caught little at kiddy porn and not actually attacking children.  If they're going to label the sex-offender they should be specific.  This person only got caught with the porn, this one raped kids, this one raped adults, this one didn't know the kid was underage; it was consensual sex but labled as rape because the other party was not an adult. . .and so forth. . . 

Now when I was younger I had older boyfriends almost ALWAYS.  Most of them were at least 5 years older than me.  I know that sometimes it's not really the persons fault.  It was consensual or they just didn't know and I think these people should get a little slack because I was once jail bait. 

As an example, there's this girl, she is hot.  She is interested in me.  I like her, she looks good AND she looks older than her age.  When I found out she was 16 I said "You have to keep your distance from me."  This girl was all over me, trying to get sexually involved with me and I was attracted to her.  I didn't know she was 16.  I didn't do anything with her because I found out her age soon enough but if I hadn't, it could have ended in disaster.  Some things aren't as clear cut as they may seem.

It also seems fair to me that if we're going to label those who are sex-offenders why aren't we labeling the murderers or the torturer and so on.  AND if the criminal isn't ready to get out of prison and be a reformed member of society WHY are we letting them out in the first place.

I can see all the arguments as valid and that makes this particularly hard for me.  I absolutely hate pedophiles and I can't stop it so my opinion on them is colored and that's the problem with most of the things concerning peds and sex-offenders.  Most people hate them because of the horrific things they've done.  Hate them more so than someone who murdered or tortured someone.  So maybe our biggest problem is we're colored by hate?

Sorry for the long rambling post. . .

Offline robitusinz

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Re: Criminiality- Nature Vs Nuture
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2008, 02:40:15 PM »
  I have 2 daughters.  A 5 year old and a 1.5 year old.  Prior to having kids, I used to think "nurture" was the only factor in sculpting a kid's final behavior.  However, after having my own kids, I gotta say that "nature" plays a biiiiiiiiiiiig role.  Kids' personalities just seem to spring up out of the ether, out of complete randomness.  My older daughter will say things or ask certain questions that have no basis at all in anything that I or my wife have ever talked to her about. 
  Perhaps "nurture" is just too random...kids absorb just about everything in their environment, and it's virtually impossible to control ever tiny variable.  Granted, it's unlikely that these small things trigger kids to be criminals in the future, but they do form a building block or two of their overall personality.

  Thinking further, Nature vs. Nurture in the sense of criminal behavior has to be looked at on a case-by-case basis.  Criminal behavior is a real aberration.  If you're a human being growing up relatively stress-free, then extreme criminal behavior - abuse, murder, rape, torture, etc. - should be outside of the scope of your personality.  I don't know of anyone who I'd consider "normal" that tortures a puppy for fun, as an example.  When you start introducing stress in a kid's life, then the window of possibility for criminal behavior opens up.
  It's pretty much like a dog.  There is no breed of dog that if fed properly and given a decent, stress-free home, grows up to be a killer.  Without unmet "needs", no animal has a reason NOT to be friendly and compliant with others.  I don't really think that children are much different...give a kid what it needs, and discipline it properly to avoid excesses and, more importantly, to later on relegate his own behavior then you should be good to go.

Offline kongming

Re: Criminiality- Nature Vs Nuture
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2008, 01:16:26 AM »
Granted, it's unlikely that these small things trigger kids to be criminals in the future,

For what it's worth, narcissism (actual psychological narcissism, not "lol, you're such a narcissist") mostly stems from very small things at a young age - being left alone (for instance, in a cot/crib), waking up, needing immediate attention/the safety of knowing a parent is there, then finding no-one. That can lead to feelings of abandonment, and the child growing up with the belief that the only person they can trust is themself, no-one else will look out for them, "me against the world", and from there it becomes "me = good, others = bad". Everything becomes someone else's fault, etc.

But in most instances, I'd say you're right.

I'm thinking that, as someone who has no studied psychology, merely appreciates the help it has provided, I should leave it to those who have more qualifications and evidence that they know what they're talking about.

Offline robitusinz

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Re: Criminiality- Nature Vs Nuture
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2008, 08:44:14 AM »
I'm thinking that, as someone who has no studied psychology, merely appreciates the help it has provided, I should leave it to those who have more qualifications and evidence that they know what they're talking about.

Heh, if we did that, there'd be nothing to discuss on E.  I think we all know that no one here is really qualified to give any sort of usable advice (even if there are such individuals about, it's best to assume otherwise).  We're all just throwing around opinions for opinions' sake.

As far as narcissism, I gotta wonder if I'm doing that to my kids.  I typically let my kids "cry it out" when something happens...I think I'm teaching them to be resourceful and independent.  When my girls fall down (after a quick survey to make sure it's just something superficial), I let them pick themselves back up, I don't go running to them immediately (again, subject to the severity of the situation).  My older daughter will say "excuse me", or simply ask for my attention if I happen to be doing something else, unlike other kids I've seen who ball for whatever little thing they want.  When she was younger and she would scream at me for something, I'd merely stand there motionless, staring at her, and only when she was calm would I actually talk to her.  I think it's worked out...but is she now going to have some sort of psychological trauma?

Considering the nebulousness of "nurture", one's gotta wonder at what point does "nurture" simply become too random to have any substantial basis in forming a person's psyche/personality?  As you can see above, I consider what I do "good techniques", but to how many others is that a completely appalling tactic?  Furthermore, who's right?  What is the magical "key" that validates "nurture"?

Offline Zakharra

Re: Criminiality- Nature Vs Nuture
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2008, 10:40:19 AM »
 If you could raise a hundred children, from birth to adulthood, using the same methods, love, attention (or lack thereof), each one would turn out differently. Many would have similarities, but there would be some that would go in different ways. It's how they are mentally wired. Nature at work.

 Both nature and nurture have a lot to do with a child's development, just remember, each child is different. No one is exactly the same..

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Re: Criminiality- Nature Vs Nuture
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2008, 08:43:01 PM »
There's also an important factor here: nature AND nurture aside--what about personal responsibility?

I don't care if you're attracted to 3-year-olds, 14-year-olds, raccoons--whatever--just don't act on it.  Everything else aside, I think the people who get these labels absolutely deserve them, and they are far from 'victims.'

I do like the idea of differentiating between pedophiles and those who have molested adults, but both have a commonality--a dangerous lack of self-control.  We do tend to react more viscerally against pedophiles (I do, myself, not just regarding sexual molestation but also certain things like the brainwashing of children, etc.), but more than that, there's an important moral difference between those who stalk adults and those who molest children, and it's quite real.  So by all means--label them.

Next paragraph just about pedophiles.

I think part of the problem MAY be the fear of vigilante justice.  Being a Siciliana, I have to say, I don't really care if a pedophile or two gets curb-stomped... however, my rational side says this isn't quite fair.  I think, too, that the punishment for repeat offenders (not sure what it is in every state--I think it's capital punishment in Texas) should be very, VERY severe--at least 20 years' incarceration.  I'd even say Texas has the right idea, cf Jessica's Law (if that's right--mind's a bit foggy).

Offline kongming

Re: Criminiality- Nature Vs Nuture
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2008, 10:30:20 PM »
I don't care if you're attracted to 3-year-olds, 14-year-olds, raccoons--whatever--just don't act on it.

Very true. Personal responsibility must play a part in the actions people take. I don't like the idea of thought crimes, and I feel that if someone is attracted to children, raccoons, corpses, ancient beings from beyond the stars or immolated clowns, then that's fine. They may wish to seek counselling, of course, but ultimately, the important thing is that they do not then go and have sex with children, raccoons, corpses, ancient beings from beyond the stars or immolated clowns.

Part of what can help take the edge off the urges would likely be the same as what can take the edge off sexual urges for those of us who seem cursed to not be able to find the right kind of company, god-fucking-damnit. By which I mean: roleplaying and pornography/erotica (stories, drawn images, animations etc. - not the real thing). By the same token though, there is the issue of making sure they don't get desensitised to it and don't get the idea that it's perfectly okay to go out and do.

But really, we have to make sure that with what is currently allowed, people don't become desensitised and get the idea that it's okay to go on a killing spree (see: many movies and video games), or to commit rape or whatever.I don't want to just assume that anyone who has the above urges is also someone who can't control them, after all.