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Author Topic: The Salonbox -For Exploration by Discussion  (Read 20293 times)

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Offline Sherona

Re: The Salonbox -For Exploration by Discussion
« Reply #300 on: July 08, 2008, 10:43:15 AM »
When have I said anything about that... you have not really read anything that I have said have you

This conversation is about wether stereotypes are correct or not. They are more often correct than not. This conversation has nothing to do with wether stereotypes are right or wrong in moral sense, this is about wether they are true.

Godposting is annoying even in games Poet, so do not put words in my mouth.

*smiles* I too was under the impression that you were stating it was correct to stereotype...

Online Lithos

Re: The Salonbox -For Exploration by Discussion
« Reply #301 on: July 08, 2008, 10:43:25 AM »
Quote
Ok so I need to go divorce my husband because he has  abeard, hell he might be a very bad man indeed. Oh and he does have enough computer knowledge, electronic knowledge, and technological knowledge to be considered a nerd, so I will go right now and tell him to quit lifting so many heavy objects and to get himself a pocket protector because yeah he is a nerd so he has to look the part.

Yep, and my SO should do the same :P

Fortunately, stereotypes are not something to tell you what to do, they simply tell you what to expect. So be happy about exception :)

Offline ShrowdedPoet

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Re: The Salonbox -For Exploration by Discussion
« Reply #302 on: July 08, 2008, 10:44:27 AM »
1. if we are going to use statistics we should have proof of said numbers ;)


2. Ok so I need to go divorce my husband because he has  abeard, hell he might be a very bad man indeed. Oh and he does have enough computer knowledge, electronic knowledge, and technological knowledge to be considered a nerd, so I will go right now and tell him to quit lifting so many heavy objects and to get himself a pocket protector because yeah he is a nerd so he has to look the part.
 


*nods*

My father has a long grey beard and long grey hair.  He works on computers and knows technology in and out.  He is VERY smart, excells in anything he starts.  He has been a mechanic, a carpenter, a computer tech and MANY MANY other things.  He's an all A genuis. . .so should he look like a nerb or a bad guy?  He's strong, he's been in the federal army and the state army.  He excelled in that.  He was a sniper and won a few medals.  He smokes a carton of cigs a week.  I know many many other people who don't fit these stereotypes.

I dated a guy who should have been considered a nerb. . .sept he was very very strong, dressed like a punk, and liked to blow things up. . .so nerd or bad guy?

My husband should be considered a nerd. . .but he drives a motor cycle and has to shave everyday cause his facial hair grows too fast.  Nerd?  Bad guy?

The list goes on!

Offline ShrowdedPoet

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Re: The Salonbox -For Exploration by Discussion
« Reply #303 on: July 08, 2008, 10:46:04 AM »
When have I said anything about that... you have not really read anything that I have said have you

This conversation is about wether stereotypes are correct or not. They are more often correct than not. This conversation has nothing to do with wether stereotypes are right or wrong in moral sense, this is about wether they are true.

Godposting is annoying even in games Poet, so do not put words in my mouth.

I wasn't putting words in your mouth, this convo is about stereotypes. . .all the aspects. . .they are morally wrong and that's what I think, I wasn't putting words in your mouth. . .I was stating my opinion!

Offline ShrowdedPoet

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Re: The Salonbox -For Exploration by Discussion
« Reply #304 on: July 08, 2008, 10:47:12 AM »
Yep, and my SO should do the same :P

Fortunately, stereotypes are not something to tell you what to do, they simply tell you what to expect. So be happy about exception :)

I don't want to be told what to expect.  I want to find out and if I went by stereotypes I wouldn't get anywhere because I've found most of the time in my life, they tend to be wrong. 

Online Lithos

Re: The Salonbox -For Exploration by Discussion
« Reply #305 on: July 08, 2008, 10:47:41 AM »
Quote
*smiles* I too was under the impression that you were stating it was correct to stereotype...

I was simply stating that when you are dealing with something you do not know at all, stereotype can sometimes give you a basis which might be right more often than wrong. That is cause stereotypes usually exist for somewhat decent reason.

It does not mean that their existence is good, and it definitely does not mean that people should try to conform to stereotypes. They can still be used at times though, cause if some stereotype does not apply to people it should refer to at all... it stops being a stereotype and something more fitting takes its place.

What is morally wrong I think is when you start to mold people to stereotypes. You know... you see people and then you see someone who does not really fit in to what you think about they should be.. so you try to mold them in. That is when it becomes really dangerous, and that is what all the advertising and most movies are about.

Online Lithos

Re: The Salonbox -For Exploration by Discussion
« Reply #306 on: July 08, 2008, 10:49:48 AM »
Quote
Here's where I think you are absolutly wrong, why would a stereotype be good?  What good reason is there for them existing?

Not sure if I can put it any more simply than this, this should answer your question

Think about this way.. you see snake on the road and you are walking barefooted. You have stereotype of snakes being poisonous.. you have no idea about wether this one is but you give it a lot of room and go around it anyway. If you had no stereotype like that, you could have just stepped over it and if it indeed was poisonous snake, perhaps would have got bitten and be hospitalized or dead.

Someone researching snakes might know what it is at first look and laugh at your prejudice, telling you that this snake indeed is not dangerous but beautiful and you should not generalize. Still does not mean that it would be good if you never did.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 10:51:56 AM by Lithos »

Offline ShrowdedPoet

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Re: The Salonbox -For Exploration by Discussion
« Reply #307 on: July 08, 2008, 10:50:50 AM »
I was simply stating that when you are dealing with something you do not know at all, stereotype can sometimes give you a basis which might be right more often than wrong. That is cause stereotypes usually exist for somewhat decent reason.

It does not mean that their existence is good, and it definitely does not mean that people should try to conform to stereotypes. They can still be used at times though, cause if some stereotype does not apply to people it should refer to at all... it stops being a stereotype and something more fitting takes its place.


Here's where I think you are absolutly wrong, why would a stereotype be good?  What good reason is there for them existing?

Offline Greenthorn

Re: The Salonbox -For Exploration by Discussion
« Reply #308 on: July 08, 2008, 10:52:21 AM »
I agree with Lithos.  Stereotypes give us our first basis of knowledge.  If I'm walking down a dark alley and I see a man in a trenchcoat following me..stereotyping would tell me he is not safe..so therefore I know to be alert.

Offline Custos Morum

Re: The Salonbox -For Exploration by Discussion
« Reply #309 on: July 08, 2008, 10:53:51 AM »
I think I will emerge from the shadows here, because this is important to note:
Most stereotypes are not really actual, and have been some time in the past. Take the nerd for example:
He's good with computers, pretty smart. He propably got glasses too. He's not very strong, and hangs around the computer for some time of his free time.

That fits a lot of people that you wouldn't call nerdy, because computers were once, but is no more the sign of nerdiness it used to be. Likewise with the glasses and physicall strength. Get my point?
I was simply stating that when you are dealing with something you do not know at all, stereotype can sometimes give you a basis which might be right more often than wrong. That is cause stereotypes usually exist for somewhat decent reason.

It does not mean that their existence is good, and it definitely does not mean that people should try to conform to stereotypes. They can still be used at times though, cause if some stereotype does not apply to people it should refer to at all... it stops being a stereotype and something more fitting takes its place.

What is morally wrong I think is when you start to mold people to stereotypes. You know... you see people and then you see someone who does not really fit in to what you think about they should be.. so you try to mold them in. That is when it becomes really dangerous, and that is what all the advertising and most movies are about.

Offline ShrowdedPoet

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Re: The Salonbox -For Exploration by Discussion
« Reply #310 on: July 08, 2008, 10:54:24 AM »
Think about this way.. you see snake on the road and you are walking barefooted. You have stereotype of snakes being poisonous.. you have no idea about wether this one is but you give it a lot of room and go around it anyway. If you had no stereotype like that, you could have just stepped over it and if it indeed was poisonous snake, perhaps would have got bitten and be hospitalized or dead.

Someone researching snakes might know what it is at first look and laugh at your prejudice, telling you that this snake indeed is not dangerous but beautiful and you should not generalize. Still does not mean that it would be good if you never did.

I wouldn't I would get close enough to see it if it let me. . .which snakes are usually scared of you more than you are of them. . .it's nature.  So I could get as close as I could to find out if it was. . .but I would walk right by it. . .but it probably wouldn't still be there. . .

I get close to the spiders I see to find out if they are poisenous. . .then I either put them outside or kill them.  If not I leave them alone cause they are helpful.  

These aren't stereotypes, they are facts. . .nature. . .birds don't have stereotypes but they don't eat bright red colored animals cause that's a warning that hey, I'm deadly. . .nature!

Offline Sherona

Re: The Salonbox -For Exploration by Discussion
« Reply #311 on: July 08, 2008, 10:56:08 AM »
I agree with Lithos.  Stereotypes give us our first basis of knowledge.  If I'm walking down a dark alley and I see a man in a trenchcoat following me..stereotyping would tell me he is not safe..so therefore I know to be alert.

Unfortunatly justifying stereotypes like this is what has made people in America look at people who look middle eastern with suspicion. Is why for a long time after 9-11 anyone who looked like they could be muslim or Arabic could not board an airplane with out scrutiny. A horrific experiance told Americans that Arabic Muslims were out to kill them, and hence..they all should be feared, avoided, and scorned.

Offline ShrowdedPoet

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Re: The Salonbox -For Exploration by Discussion
« Reply #312 on: July 08, 2008, 10:56:15 AM »
I agree with Lithos.  Stereotypes give us our first basis of knowledge.  If I'm walking down a dark alley and I see a man in a trenchcoat following me..stereotyping would tell me he is not safe..so therefore I know to be alert.

Natural instinct should tell you to be alert because someone is following you.  If a person was following you in the same instint that was wearing normal clothing you should still feel that need to be alert.  It's nature. . .not stereotype

Offline ShrowdedPoet

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Re: The Salonbox -For Exploration by Discussion
« Reply #313 on: July 08, 2008, 10:57:30 AM »
Unfortunatly justifying stereotypes like this is what has made people in America look at people who look middle eastern with suspicion. Is why for a long time after 9-11 anyone who looked like they could be muslim or Arabic could not board an airplane with out scrutiny. A horrific experiance told Americans that Arabic Muslims were out to kill them, and hence..they all should be feared, avoided, and scorned.

Also way back after pearl harbor.  They caged up people because they were afraid of them. . .Wow. . .smooth move. . .now we regret it!

Online Lithos

Re: The Salonbox -For Exploration by Discussion
« Reply #314 on: July 08, 2008, 10:59:17 AM »
We are part of the nature too Poet. And so are stereotypes what we make. If you want to hold yourself at pedestal of not having stereotypes at all, feel free to. You know just as well as I that we all have them though, and that they can be useful.

And just so you know, there are many animals in nature that are not poisonous but still use bright colours as protection, cause many others are. Think about those poor critters... their whole protection is based on stereotypes that other animals have x.x

Offline Greenthorn

Re: The Salonbox -For Exploration by Discussion
« Reply #315 on: July 08, 2008, 10:59:22 AM »
Unfortunatly justifying stereotypes like this is what has made people in America look at people who look middle eastern with suspicion. Is why for a long time after 9-11 anyone who looked like they could be muslim or Arabic could not board an airplane with out scrutiny. A horrific experiance told Americans that Arabic Muslims were out to kill them, and hence..they all should be feared, avoided, and scorned.

Ahhh..but then you are going into each person's ability to stereotype...and then react.  Just because you stereotype someone does not mean you -have- to react to that stereotype!  It becomes a personal choice, and a matter of morals.  

As for 9-11..I blame that on mass hysteria actually...the media was always throwing up wanted posters of middle eastern descent..and well..mass hysteria ensues

Offline ShrowdedPoet

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Re: The Salonbox -For Exploration by Discussion
« Reply #316 on: July 08, 2008, 11:03:35 AM »
We are part of the nature too Poet. And so are stereotypes what we make. If you want to hold yourself at pedestal of not having stereotypes at all, feel free to. You know just as well as I that we all have them though, and that they can be useful.

And just so you know, there are many animals in nature that are not poisonous but still use bright colours as protection, cause many others are. Think about those poor critters... their whole protection is based on stereotypes that other animals have x.x

Stereotypes are man made. . .  yes I know there are those animals that aren't posienous but look it.  It's still natural.  It's NOT however natural to expect all nerbs to be weak, smart, and wear glasses. . .  It's not natural to expect poor people to be trashy!  I do not hold myself up on a pedistal.  I have stereotypes that are pounded into me by society, I try not to follow them though.  Stereotypes are wrong.  They are morally wrong.  They are degrating.  They are hurtful and often used as weapons.  I've never seen them help only hurt.  So you tell me how they are helpful. . .you tell me where they don't hurt your chances of getting to know people without having something already setup hindering that.  You go right on ahead and tell me when they were good!

Online Lithos

Re: The Salonbox -For Exploration by Discussion
« Reply #317 on: July 08, 2008, 11:09:10 AM »
It is not natural to expect EVERYONE to be anything. When you know nothing about something though, it is the stereotypes that give you first basis of info to work on to see about more. Even if it is only to see how much they differ. When I run at something I have never faced before, and if I have some stereotype about it, do I use it? yes I do, specially if it is something potentially dangerous, till I know more about that particular thing. And deep down, when such things happen, so do you and about everyone else. This is how our own nature protects us.

Another discussion we need to have at some point is Man VS nature. We are part of nature same as everything else you know :p

Offline Sherona

Re: The Salonbox -For Exploration by Discussion
« Reply #318 on: July 08, 2008, 11:09:17 AM »
Ahhh..but then you are going into each person's ability to stereotype...and then react.  Just because you stereotype someone does not mean you -have- to react to that stereotype!  It becomes a personal choice, and a matter of morals.  

As for 9-11..I blame that on mass hysteria actually...the media was always throwing up wanted posters of middle eastern descent..and well..mass hysteria ensues

Hm yes, I should probably clarify that my issues with stereotyping is not the /thinking/ of them, but the reactions to them.

Lithos, I am coming from a standpoint of how acting on stereotypes is hurtful to those stereotyped and thus is wrong to act upon stereotypes....so animals don't really equate. Plus those vibrantly colored animals WANT to be stereotyped..so its also a difference there.


I do agree that everyone has stereotypes of groups in their mind. On this board the stereotype for christians to be all close-minded judgemental individuals is rampant. It is the reactions to these stereotyping that is wrong.

Offline Maeven

Re: The Salonbox -For Exploration by Discussion
« Reply #319 on: July 08, 2008, 11:09:30 AM »

I get close to the spiders I see to find out if they are poisenous. . .then I either put them outside or kill them.  If not I leave them alone cause they are helpful.  

Stereotypes are neither good nor bad.  They just are.  At times, they can be useful.  If you are going to go to a country music concert, then you have an idea of what to expect.  Not a mosh pit.  You can dress and act accrordingly which helps you to have a positive experience.  If you are going to a Britney Spears concert, you know what to expect. Not a mosh pit. If you are going to Lallapalooza, you know what to expect. Possibly a mosh pit.  It helps to have these preconcieved expextations so that you are better able to prepare yourself for an experience.  

If you consistently steer your life based ONLY on the stereoptypes and refuse to actually experience all that encompasses it, then you run into problems.  You say you get close to the spiders to see if they ACTUALLY are poisonous. Great.  

In the same respect: you can choose to get close to a person you've labeled as Christian to determine if they actually fit your pre-conceived idea.  

Offline Maeven

Re: The Salonbox -For Exploration by Discussion
« Reply #320 on: July 08, 2008, 11:11:24 AM »
So you tell me how they are helpful. . .you tell me where they don't hurt your chances of getting to know people without having something already setup hindering that.  You go right on ahead and tell me when they were good!

They only hurt your chances if you let them. 

Offline ShrowdedPoet

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Re: The Salonbox -For Exploration by Discussion
« Reply #321 on: July 08, 2008, 11:13:08 AM »
It is not natural to expect EVERYONE to be anything. When you know nothing about something though, it is the stereotypes that give you first basis of info to work on to see about more. Even if it is only to see how much they differ. When I run at something I have never faced before, and if I have some stereotype about it, do I use it? yes I do, specially if it is something potentially dangerous, till I know more about that particular thing. And deep down, when such things happen, so do you and about everyone else. This is how our own nature protects us.

Another discussion we need to have at some point is Man VS nature. We are part of nature same as everything else you know :p

I already stated that humans are part of nature and stated what's natural.  

I do not use stereotypes. . .If I know nothing about something, I learn from that new experience!  I've only ever seen stereotypes be wrong and hurtful.  I've only ever been hurt by them.  I've never seen any good in them.  They have always been bad and will always be bad till I see otherwise.  And frankly this discussion hasn't shown me otherwise.

Online Lithos

Re: The Salonbox -For Exploration by Discussion
« Reply #322 on: July 08, 2008, 11:14:24 AM »
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I do not use stereotypes

On quick situations that is not even conscious reaction, so I think that we are veering away from truth here.

Offline ShrowdedPoet

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Re: The Salonbox -For Exploration by Discussion
« Reply #323 on: July 08, 2008, 11:16:06 AM »
They only hurt your chances if you let them. 

Yes, but how many people let them?  How many people have been hurt by them?  How many times have they hurt me because other people use them?  How many times have a lost getting to know someone because that person didn't want to get to know me because of a stereotype?

I get to know the Christian, always have.  I have a great college teacher who is a Christian and is not closed minded etc.

Offline Greenthorn

Re: The Salonbox -For Exploration by Discussion
« Reply #324 on: July 08, 2008, 11:16:35 AM »
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I do agree that everyone has stereotypes of groups in their mind. On this board the stereotype for christians to be all close-minded judgemental individuals is rampant. It is the reactions to these stereotyping that is wrong.]I do agree that everyone has stereotypes of groups in their mind. On this board the stereotype for christians to be all close-minded judgemental individuals is rampant. It is the reactions to these stereotyping that is wrong.

*raises hand*

I'm worse than Christian..I'm Roman Catholic...would everyone have guessed that? *grins*