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Author Topic: National Debt and Spending  (Read 2146 times)

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Offline Kirce

Re: National Debt and Spending
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2012, 08:54:22 AM »
Quote
I think that Spain (as well as possibly Portugal and Ireland) are all watching the Greece situation closely. There was more than a bit of concern about this when I lived there ten years ago. Germany still remembers, at least institutionally, a time when their currency wasn't worth the paper it was printed on. (Staying with friends outside of Heidleburg I once saw a million mark coin). That shapes a lot of their outlook. 

Yes, it kind of explains Germany and the ECB's (European Central Bank) obsession with keeping inflation in check. Everyone is worried about Greece because its fall could potentially trigger similar scenarios in other countries and ultimately in the USA.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: National Debt and Spending
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2012, 11:09:40 AM »
I was thinking about the EU and Greece in particular and was wondering what is keeping them from leaving the EU short of a piece of paper they signed? The EU is not likely to use military force and if the nation opts to withdraw from the treaty they can they are a sovereign nation. I agree it might not be a good idea but they are leaning to doing that and could and if they do would other nations follow?

On the matter of the US if its true and we are heading for a collapse the only issue then is can we survive by rationing goods and making sure all of our people are provided for, secure our borders and seal off our nation until things settle down. As I see this no one in our nations leadership is going to do an austerity program until the wolf runs up, jumps the fence and bites the nation on the butt and holds on. By then we could be better off just defaulting and institute a Fortress America plan hiding in our nation and take care of our own. I find most people in the end will be happy if you feed them, house them, clothe them and keep them entertained enough and we should be able to do that in this nation. Just some thoughts since I'm not an expert on this but our nation has alot going for it over against it in a worse case scenario.

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Re: National Debt and Spending
« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2012, 11:16:06 AM »
I find most people in the end will be happy if you feed them, house them, clothe them and keep them entertained enough and we should be able to do that in this nation. Just some thoughts since I'm not an expert on this but our nation has alot going for it over against it in a worse case scenario.

Hey, it worked for Rome.

Offline BCdan

Re: National Debt and Spending
« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2012, 11:47:16 AM »
I think it is interesting how Sweden's center-right government reduced welfare dependence and the role of government before and during the recession, and now relative to the rest of Europe, they are doing great.  Only just now are they considering any sort of stimulus and personally I think they should stay away from stimulus, as its not going to fix their long term problems (which is the rest of Europe dragging down the economy). 

The main mistake that was made with the Euro was that they had a monetary union without making a fiscal union.  And by that, I mean they all used the same money without using the same fiscal policies that lend money its strength.  If every country had the same fiscal policies as Germany, then the Euro would be incredibly strong and we probably wouldn't even be having this austerity debate.  But they let countries with corruption and poor fiscal policy ride on the shoulders of more responsible countries. 

I think the United States has much easier to solve debt problems, we just need to stop having such an interventionist foreign policy.  It has only hurt us.  Plus we really need to streamline welfare and the tax code, plus there are a lot of things that the government shouldn't be involved with, like subsidizing corn production. 


Offline Lord of Shadows

Re: National Debt and Spending
« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2012, 11:54:53 AM »
I was thinking about the EU and Greece in particular and was wondering what is keeping them from leaving the EU short of a piece of paper they signed? The EU is not likely to use military force and if the nation opts to withdraw from the treaty they can they are a sovereign nation. I agree it might not be a good idea but they are leaning to doing that and could and if they do would other nations follow?

The reason is rather simple, everyone remembers Lehman Brothers? Ok now scale that up in country size. Short is that Germany in particular is terrified in what would happen if the loans Greece has is suddenly canceled the event that would take part after that is beyond what anyone can fathom or even think ahead.
The main problem is really not Greece in itself but (at the moment) Spain, Italy, Portugal and Ireland. If Greece falls that might cause Spain to fall, and Spain is of the size that it is unsavable.

My guess is that due to this regardless what happens EU and IMF will keep paying to Greece as if they don't the crash will be so much more expensive than just keep going.

Should point out that this year is Greece's fifth with shrinking economy and they have a unemployment rate of about 25%. The main problem is that the amount Greece have been saving and raising taxes and such has been eaten up by the less taxes the country has gotten in throwing the country in a never ending spiral downwards. If comparing to 1930 with today we are at the moment more or less in an exact replica of that age - economy wise, unemployment wise and politically wise.

Offline Lord of Shadows

Re: National Debt and Spending
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2012, 12:00:55 PM »
I think it is interesting how Sweden's center-right government reduced welfare dependence and the role of government before and during the recession, and now relative to the rest of Europe, they are doing great.  Only just now are they considering any sort of stimulus and personally I think they should stay away from stimulus, as its not going to fix their long term problems (which is the rest of Europe dragging down the economy). 

The reason Sweden reduced welfare has nothing to do with the European recession but pure political decisions, and they more or less loss the election 2010 due to it. They lost the parliament majority 2010 and considering how they are acting at the moment they will loose government 2014.

Our economy was something the present government inherited from our former left-green government which was a result from a redesign of how we handled the budget and our banks in the 90s (that too was done with the same left-green government).

Offline Vekseid

Re: National Debt and Spending
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2012, 03:24:31 PM »
Vekseid, Spain's measures are very little compared to what it really needs to do. Its current structure is absurd. It's 17 mini-states with its own parlaments and competences in health and education among others. The amount of politicians in that country is way too much, around 450000 and its free privileges, from the top of my mind, is around 20000 cars, last generation phones and bodyguards (which is pointless now that ETA is gone).

And that's just the tip of the iceberg. The senate, by law, is rendered useless by the parlament and it has become a lair of old politicians to keep on sucking resources from the state. And I rather not talk about the monarchy which is as useless and shameful as the senate. Syndicates are subventioned by the state, same goes for the political parties

Solving this would be good, naturally. But it's separate from attempts at genuinely trying to find ways to stimulate the economy.

Quote
The solution for Spain? Remove all of the above to generate leeway and confidence. Will that happen? "lol no!". The current politicians in that country is not willing to sacrifice themselves in order to save the country. So if Greece leaves the euro that will cost around 34000 million euros to Spain, and that's only if Portugal doesn't fall, if it does then Spain is fully screwed. And of course if Spain falls the eurozone also does because Spain's economy is way too massive in comparison, specially their banks.

I don't really have good words for that. A rather prominent far-left figure here compares the modern-day United States to the Weimar Republic. There are a few key differences, most importantly we have a much stronger constitution in the United States here.

We live in an era where the leadership of the world is very tightly connected to each other - and rather disconnected from the membership of the states they claim to represent. I don't foresee that ending well for them, in the long run.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: National Debt and Spending
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2012, 04:09:35 PM »
I was thinking about the EU and Greece in particular and was wondering what is keeping them from leaving the EU short of a piece of paper they signed? The EU is not likely to use military force and if the nation opts to withdraw from the treaty they can they are a sovereign nation. I agree it might not be a good idea but they are leaning to doing that and could and if they do would other nations follow?

On the matter of the US if its true and we are heading for a collapse the only issue then is can we survive by rationing goods and making sure all of our people are provided for, secure our borders and seal off our nation until things settle down. As I see this no one in our nations leadership is going to do an austerity program until the wolf runs up, jumps the fence and bites the nation on the butt and holds on. By then we could be better off just defaulting and institute a Fortress America plan hiding in our nation and take care of our own. I find most people in the end will be happy if you feed them, house them, clothe them and keep them entertained enough and we should be able to do that in this nation. Just some thoughts since I'm not an expert on this but our nation has alot going for it over against it in a worse case scenario.

I don't see locking the borders up and cutting ties with everyone working. We don't produce enough of our own goods to be self reliant. Did you know there isn't a single nail in the market made in the US anymore? Not one. Textiles? I think in the last 20 years we've lost something like 70% of our capacity.. but of course to folks like Sec of State Clinton those were only 'low paying blue collar jobs'. We don't even have the machinery to retool and restore the textile mills. (they were sold off and shipped to Mexico and points further south).

I'm willing to bet a large portion of our food staples aren't all produced in the US anymore either. Add in that we export more of our domestic oil production than use state side.. we're not able to do anything like that.

Austerity won't work.. because there is NOTHING in any of the austerity programs that reels back the something like 700% growth in exec wages since the Regan era. Or undo the tax loop holes that the big business' made. Or the cronyism they have cultivated.

Too many things have been outsourced these days. We don't need to roll up the country and push everyone out. We need to find ways to make it marketable. Traditional business models are thrown out as why 'industry' won't work. It's BS, we have successful manufacturers within the US for many industries. The trick is using new technology and business models to inovate and grow our business' back. If you're going to give tax benefits, give them for developing industry here.

You want to go protectionistic? Can NAFTA and sit down with Mexico and Canada and fix it. We let special interests fuck what could have been a good deal for the consumer.

Offline BCdan

Re: National Debt and Spending
« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2012, 04:34:24 PM »
The reason Sweden reduced welfare has nothing to do with the European recession but pure political decisions, and they more or less loss the election 2010 due to it. They lost the parliament majority 2010 and considering how they are acting at the moment they will loose government 2014.

Our economy was something the present government inherited from our former left-green government which was a result from a redesign of how we handled the budget and our banks in the 90s (that too was done with the same left-green government).

That's not what wikipedia is saying.  According to the data, 'The Alliance' made minor gains in 2010 by percentage of the vote, but they seem to have lost majority control of the government due to how the other parties organized themselves. 

I think Sweden owes a lot to having its own currency instead of getting dragged into the Euro crises.

Offline Lord of Shadows

Re: National Debt and Spending
« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2012, 12:42:39 AM »
That's not what wikipedia is saying.  According to the data, 'The Alliance' made minor gains in 2010 by percentage of the vote, but they seem to have lost majority control of the government due to how the other parties organized themselves. 

I think Sweden owes a lot to having its own currency instead of getting dragged into the Euro crises.

Well I can fill in what the page is not really mentioning. In 2010 we got a new party in Parliament - the Swedish Democrats which is a... mild extreme right party, that would somewhat explain their view of the world. Since neither the left-green coalition nor the Alliance (as they are called, consisting of four parties on the right wing) got majority seats and in the election both sides had made a stand that they wouldn't be allow the new party to get any say in the politics actually neither side got the head up. Due to our laws a seating government does not need to step down after an election which they didn't and the Alliance decided to try to rule on as a minority government instead. Since the left-green had just as big trouble in parliament they haven't challenged the government for control but let them rule on. But this is really slipping this thread's topic so I end this here.

On topic the main reason Sweden stands so strong is due to three things:

1) We got our budget and our national loans in check in the mid 90s securiting the whole thing that made it illegal to spend more then you have (well more or less, the size of the budget is set a few years in advance with a cap on how much government are allowed to spend).

2) The whole parlement has stood behind this budget laws for 15 years now and that is the foundation as everyone talks.

3) We voted no to the Euro. Which was most likely the best thing that has happened Sweden in modern history.

Offline Kirce

Re: National Debt and Spending
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2012, 04:24:23 AM »

Offline Darius

Re: National Debt and Spending
« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2012, 08:12:06 PM »

Many of the richest people and organizations in the world consider the US debt to be the best, safest investment in the world, anywhere.

Not gold.
Not any other nation's debt. Certainly not Europe's, right now.
Not any business.
Not any bank.

United States debt.

Eventually this austerity bullshit being promoted by liars, frauds, and the people who believe in them will pass.

But I feel there is going to be a lot of suffering between now and then.

If we had a 'like' button I'd be hitting it about now

Offline MasterMischief

Re: National Debt and Spending
« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2012, 11:50:01 AM »
Part of Murphy's Law

'Job Creators' aren't

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: National Debt and Spending
« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2012, 12:16:29 PM »
Part of Murphy's Law

'Job Creators' aren't

Sure they are.. just not here.. (because they don't get MORE kick backs here)