Obama to approve NDAA

[Callie Del Noire]

I still really don't see why this surprises people.

We have the alien & sedition acts. We have Lincoln's suspension of Habeus Corpus that Trie brought up. We have the camps for women during WWI. We have the Japanese/Italian/German internment in WWII. We have the initial Patriot act, and now we have this (and probably more than one or two that I left out).

The American government has never shied away from suspending the rights of its citizens when it gets scared. It has happened so many times throughout our history that it is really becoming commonplace.

True, and you left out acts like the Trail of Tears (which some of my ancestors walked on). But we've also have a process in place to prevent it. If we, as a people, speak out against it it WILL be changed.  Public pressure is the ONLY way it will.

Most folks are still reeling from the events of 9/11 and are letting their fears (yes, even 10 years later) rule them. If we let things like this stand, we destroy our country as surely as Al Qaeda would have

[Oniya]

I'd rather see people feeling shocked about this than feeling it was 'commonplace'.  That's only an eyelash away from accepting it, in my views.

[Callie Del Noire]

I'd rather see people feeling shocked about this than feeling it was 'commonplace'.  That's only an eyelash away from accepting it, in my views.

It's all in the media spin..and there has been nearly NONE given the scope of it. The only thing I have seen less media coverage of late is the fact that Rupert Murdoch and his Newscorp groups here in the US very likely did the same thing they did in the UK and that it merits MASSIVE investigations (the feds ARE investigating but coveage is nearly non-existant on this side of the pond given the scale of it)

[DarklingAlice]

True, and you left out acts like the Trail of Tears (which some of my ancestors walked on). But we've also have a process in place to prevent it. If we, as a people, speak out against it it WILL be changed.  Public pressure is the ONLY way it will.

Most folks are still reeling from the events of 9/11 and are letting their fears (yes, even 10 years later) rule them. If we let things like this stand, we destroy our country as surely as Al Qaeda would have

Yeah, maybe it is my Cherokee blood that makes me cynical about the American government. And I mostly agree with you (although speaking as a medical researcher I can't understand how people put so much attention and money towards terrorism when it is, at most, a minor threat). But I really can't see how continuing to act in the same way that America has acted in the past 'destroys our country'. As far as I can tell, everyone just has a poor knowledge of history and an overinflated sense of nationalism. I am not saying that things like this are acceptable, just that they are far from novel. It may destroy many people's ideal of America the just, virtuous, and good; but then that was a fantasy to begin with. We CAN change our country, and I work as hard as I can to do that, but I doubt that the majority of America is with us on that. As DeTocqueville pointed out America will always be run by the tyranny of the majority, and the majority is inept and ignorant.

By no means do we have to accept that, but if we deny it then we have a skewed view of the conflict and the stakes.

[Oniya]

It's like running a bath that's too hot.  If you turn on the hot tap and try stepping in after the tub has filled, you realize it's too hot and jerk your foot out.  If you get in the tub and fill it while you're in there, using progressively hotter water, you can come out as red as a boiled lobster.  The damage is still occurring, but since it's happening at a slower, more gradual pace, you don't react to it until more damage has been done.

[Callie Del Noire]

Yeah, maybe it is my Cherokee blood that makes me cynical about the American government. And I mostly agree with you (although speaking as a medical researcher I can't understand how people put so much attention and money towards terrorism when it is, at most, a minor threat). But I really can't see how continuing to act in the same way that America has acted in the past 'destroys our country'. As far as I can tell, everyone just has a poor knowledge of history and an overinflated sense of nationalism. I am not saying that things like this are acceptable, just that they are far from novel. It may destroy many people's ideal of America the just, virtuous, and good; but then that was a fantasy to begin with. We CAN change our country, and I work as hard as I can to do that, but I doubt that the majority of America is with us on that. As DeTocqueville pointed out America will always be run by the tyranny of the majority, and the majority is inept and ignorant.

By no means do we have to accept that, but if we deny it then we have a skewed view of the conflict and the stakes.

I can relate, like I said I have some Cherokee blood as well. It's hard for me to accept that the same man who broke the back of the Bank of the United States did such a heinous crime against people. Andy Jackson did a great evil in what he did to my ancestors, and we (as the people) let fear rule us before.

The internment of Japanese-Americans during WWII.
The sheer evil of HUAC, and while I despise Richard Nixon for his part in the process, it was the people in the end that enabled it.
The patriot act (I was called a 'Pinko' by my shop chief because I said it was dangerous)
The NDAA is just the last in letting the people's fear rule the country. 

[Serephino]

I'm not shocked over it, but I am angry.  I'm sick and tired of politicians trying to scare me into compliance.  Fear is how Bush got elected a second time.  Terrorism was his main campaign focus.  He basically insinuated that if he wasn't re-elected we'd all get murdered in our beds because since John Kerry wanted to pull out of Iraq they'd smell weakness and go on a rampage.  That wasn't what he outright said, but that's the meaning I got.

Fear is a powerful thing.  We Americans thought we were untouchable, and then got a very rude awakening.  Something nobody ever thought would happen did, and instead of wising up and simply learning from mistakes, we have this, and anyone who travels by plane gets to be molested at the airport.

[adifferenceinsize]

It's not so much this in and of itself that has me concerned, as the precedent it could set if it doesn't get repealed. History has shown time and again that the best way to take liberty from a people without fuss is slowly and subversively. It's also not just a comic book theme that more power often leads to more corruption.

Good news, bad news on that. With the addition of the confounding clause that the bill which negates normal rights for US citizens will not infringe on their rights and the overall sheer flagrant nature of its violations of several sections of the Constitution mean it will likely fall apart the first time it's used and subsequently challenged in court. However, that still means you have a non-zero-percent chance of being the person (or one of the people) that has to fester in military confinement for the next 3 - 20 years to get it stricken. And if you're a minority? Well, you might not actually get it overturned. Sorry, but dark-skinned people are totally scary and seem to have randomly-accessible rights when criminal cases come up. So, try not to be black, Middle Eastern, or Hispanic for a while.

And the dumbest part of all of that law? Given how people on the far right talk about Obama now, there's a good chance if a Republican of the deep conservative vein gets in that he'd well end up on receiving end of his own bill.

[Oniya]

http://www.gocomics.com/tomthedancingbug/2011/12/23

[DarklingAlice]

http://www.gocomics.com/tomthedancingbug/2011/12/23

That's kind of awesome and horrible at the same time.

[Callie Del Noire]

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2011/10/dangers-classifying-news

While this is a LITTLE off topic, I brought this up rather than start a whole new thread. A friend of mine pointed out that the president was 'open' as he claimed to be and pointed me towards the EFF post.

While I don't think that this is an entire indictment on the president I do find the number of people being charged by for whistling blowers. I mean MORE than ALL the presidents since Nixon? That's a LOT. At the same time that high level sources leak 'strategic' points.

There is a trend towards classifying everything that is scary. Anwar al-Awlaki's evidence against him AND the memo okaying his place on the kill list were both classified Top Secret. That makes it hard to defend yourself when the very charges and evidence isn't visible to you because of 'need to know'.

I've held a TS (and additional specific clearances) and I know that if I write anything about ANYTHING I'm cleared for that I'm liable to go to jail. At the same time I signed the paperwork acknowledging that some tool in the White House outed a NOC Agent of the CIA and to this day I think that 'Scooter Libby' wasn't the leak or the one that set it in motion. Too much lying and obfuscation was put forth to cover the people who did it.

And many people forget that part of what came out of that leak was that someone that Valerie Plame talked to was quite likely taken down into some dank little dungeon for a short but very eventful conclusion of their life before being shot and buried without concern.

My case is.. classification is a needed thing and things like this make it hard to do that.

[Oniya]

Not quite necro-ing this thread, but I've recently found out that NDAA is being fought on the state level.  Several state and local governments are introducing bills (it's passed the House in Virginia) that basically prevent state agencies to take part in enforcing it.  Sample verbage from Arizona:

SB1182, if signed into law, “Prohibits this state and agencies of this state from participating in the implementation of Sections 1021 and 1022 of the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) of 2012. Classifies the act of attempting to enforce or enforcing these sections as a class 1 misdemeanor.”

[Callie Del Noire]

Not quite necro-ing this thread, but I've recently found out that NDAA is being fought on the state level.  Several state and local governments are introducing bills (it's passed the House in Virginia) that basically prevent state agencies to take part in enforcing it.  Sample verbage from Arizona:

SB1182, if signed into law, “Prohibits this state and agencies of this state from participating in the implementation of Sections 1021 and 1022 of the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) of 2012. Classifies the act of attempting to enforce or enforcing these sections as a class 1 misdemeanor.”

Nice.  I hope a lot more states do that. Its a terrible idea that should have never been passed.

[Oniya]

Today is the Bay Area Day of Remembrance - 70 years after the signing of Executive Order 9066.

For those who say 'It can't happen here':

[FantasyKitten]

I think the basic problem with things like this is the ever expanding definition of words like 'terrorist' and 'enemy combatant.' How long before that merely describes the party that is not in power? Im not saying were close to that, but thats what were moving towards. And with congress trying to pass bills like SOPA, its looking more and more like they don't give a damn about us. The only effort they put towards upholding the ideals of america is lip service. My question to them is this: What makes america so special? And if you don't care, then GTFO.

Frankly, I am skeptical that anyone can or will do anything about it. Last time there was a major protest they all got arrested or harassed until they left. The point is not whether or not you agree with this protest.

At this point, the best thing we can do is protect the internet. Unfortunately, the SOPA backlash only showed us to be a formidable enemy. Now they know they will have to be a little more insidious with their Big Brother legislation.

[Iniquitous]

This thread isn't concerning SOPA/PIPA legislation - it's about the NDAA that has clauses that allows the government to indefinitely detain US citizens that they (they being the government) say are terrorists or have helped terrorists. No right to a lawyer, no right to a trial. Just detention/torture till the end of the war on terror.

[FantasyKitten]

I believe I expressed my outrage about that topic, and then made a connection to SOPA.

Elected officials' support of both of those things stems from the same lack of respect for what America should stand for.

[Chris Brady]

Posted this before, but I think the sentiment remains, and I think should some up what we are all wanting to do.  And I am a Canadian!

[FantasyKitten]

Posted this before, but I think the sentiment remains, and I think should some up what we are all wanting to do.  And I am a Canadian!

I enjoyed that. Thanks for the link! ^_^

[Iniquitous]

And yet we have states working to make it so that the clauses in NDAA do not affect US citizens. Which is what Oniya had posted about most recently.

And SOPA is no longer an issue. It's been tabled.

[Trieste]

There's no reason not to draw parallels between the types of legislation that our elected officials have tried to pass, IO, even if that legislation has since been tabled. :)

[TheGlyphstone]

Especially since you know, like a comic book supervillain, it'll be back next issuesession in a new disguise.

[Oniya]

It's important - especially with all the crap that has recently been shoved down the pike - to remember that the government is supposed to work in our best interests.  We as citizens have a duty to remind them of that, and to remember the times that has failed.  Seventy years ago today, FDR pulled something like the NDAA - the major difference is that WWII had a definable end even when he signed it.  The 'War on Terror' doesn't, and I would challenge any politician to give me a definition on when the 'War on Terror' could possibly be declared over.

It was horrible when it was done to the Japanese-Americans.  It's just as horrible now.