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Author Topic: Marine Killed, Shot 60 Times by... SWAT  (Read 4279 times)

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Offline XajowTopic starter

Re: Marine Killed, Shot 60 Times by... SWAT
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2011, 12:58:52 PM »
The problem is Xajou is that we do not hear of the good ones, its a similar fashion to the social workers issue here in the UK like with Baby P. "omg this happened social workers are so bad and incompetent, why arn't they saying anything about their situation that shows just how guilty and incompetent they are!"

Well unfortunately, it those one in 300ish situations are the only ones we the public hear about, and when they do, we only get to hear one side of the arguement because *shock horror* the legal conglormarate side (police, social workers etc) are bound by privacy laws to NOT say anything in regards to the situation.
So are you saying you want the instances of abuse drowned out in an abundance of stories about how everything was okay? Should we just overlook when police do bad things because they do a lot of good too?

Offline Silk

Re: Marine Killed, Shot 60 Times by... SWAT
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2011, 03:19:44 PM »
No but by the same regard "These stories of abuse ruin all faith in all police all the time forever" is not fair either. We don't call the pill bad protection because it has a 99% sucess rate on average.

Offline Xandria

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Re: Marine Killed, Shot 60 Times by... SWAT
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2011, 03:21:32 PM »
So are you saying you want the instances of abuse drowned out in an abundance of stories about how everything was okay? Should we just overlook when police do bad things because they do a lot of good too?

For me the problem is one of extremes, which can bring these issues dangerously close to that slippery slope of prejudice and intolerance. I for one absolutely do not want the abuses drowned out, but I also want people to keep them in perspective and take care they don't condemn or disparage an entire profession for the sins of a few.  When the system fails, or more specifically, when it has been PROVEN to have failed and we have ALL the facts, then yes we better publicize it, talk about it, scrutinize every detail and action, until we figure out what went wrong so we can prevent it from ever happening again. I would also point out that often the loudest voices demanding action in these cases are coming from within the agencies themselves, and this is never recognized by those who rush to judge because much of it takes place out of the public eye, through the slow moving cogs of proper legal channels, and the resolution takes longer than our society's media hungry attention span can handle.

I will also add that I agree 100% with what Silk said...very often silence from these agencies is due to privacy laws or procedural guidelines and they cannot speak out even if they want to. It does not always mean there is a conspiracy or cover up. And yes, I still maintain that the good stories don't nearly get the recognition they so richly deserve, and society would benefit greatly from focusing on them with at least equal intensity.

As an aside, let me ask something of anyone here who distrusts the police...do you trust doctors?  If so then I have to ask why, because the number of incidences of medical negligence costing human life are numerous and devastating, and yet it seems most people who distrust the police, still hold the medical profession in high esteem.  Just food for thought, and I can't help thinking some people who distrust the police or other similar agencies, really just have issues with, and/or resent, authority in general.

« Last Edit: May 28, 2011, 10:10:34 PM by Xandria »

Offline Zakharra

Re: Marine Killed, Shot 60 Times by... SWAT
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2011, 07:46:28 PM »
So are you saying you want the instances of abuse drowned out in an abundance of stories about how everything was okay? Should we just overlook when police do bad things because they do a lot of good too?

 No. I think what she is saying is the agencies often can NOT say anything because by law, they are forbidden to until the investigation is finished. Many cries of 'It's a conspiracy! are by  (forgive the language) fucking morons. Because such morons want information Now! and when they don't get it, throw a temper tantrum a 3 year old would envy. It's not because the agencies don't want to, it's because they can't.

 And given how the media distorts facts, I can see them very unwilling to give facts when they can give them.

Offline XajowTopic starter

Re: Marine Killed, Shot 60 Times by... SWAT
« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2011, 02:14:14 AM »
No but by the same regard "These stories of abuse ruin all faith in all police all the time forever" is not fair either. We don't call the pill bad protection because it has a 99% sucess rate on average.
I never said any stories "ruin all faith in all police all the time forever." All I said was I don't trust police. That abuse happens is not the only reason. A large part of it is that police are authorized to use violent force. I feel that requires some skepticism at the very least. If you don't, that's up to you. Personally, I think if no one asked the uncomfortable questions about police behavior, we would all be a lot worse off.

Offline XajowTopic starter

Re: Marine Killed, Shot 60 Times by... SWAT
« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2011, 02:31:17 AM »
I would also point out that often the loudest voices demanding action in these cases are coming from within the agencies themselves
Sometimes yes, that is true. Other times, not so much, if for no other reason than that they believe they did nothing wrong.

As an aside, let me ask something of anyone here who distrusts the police...do you trust doctors?  If so then I have to ask why, because the number of incidences of medical negligence costing human life are numerous and devastating, and yet it seems most people who distrust the police, still hold the medical profession in high esteem.  Just food for thought, and I can't help thinking some people who distrust the police or other similar agencies, really just have issues with, and/or resent, authority in general.
No, I don't trust doctors. I trust the ones I know, as I do with police officers. But in general, no.

And no, I don't resent authority in general. I object to authoritarianism. As I said before, while I don't trust police, they have my respect for doing what they do everyday. That I do not trust law enforcement in general does not mean I hate them or resent them or anything like that. I don't call cops pigs or make pork jokes about them. I do not think they are all involved in a conspiracy or that they want bad things to occur. But I know they are human beings with authority to use violent force, indeed deadly force if necessary. And I know authority and power affect the way one thinks and acts. In my opinion, a lack of trust is warranted.

I'm not saying anyone has to agree with me, but I do wish folks wouldn't assume I harbor ill-will towards police just because I don't trust them.

Offline Asuras

Re: Marine Killed, Shot 60 Times by... SWAT
« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2011, 08:07:30 PM »
Quote from: Arizona Daily Star
The man shot and killed by Pima County SWAT officers was linked to a home-invasion crew, the attorney representing the officers said Thursday.

Michael Storie said authorities found rifles, hand guns, body armor and a portion of a law enforcement uniform inside the house where Jose Guerena was shot by officers serving a search warrant May 5.

...

The five officers had “no choice but to shoot” when they breached the front door of the house in the 7100 block of South Redwater Drive and saw Guerena holding a rifle, Storie said.

Source: http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/article_54486592-8257-11e0-950b-001cc4c002e0.html

They sent a SWAT team - not just, you know, a few detectives knocking on the door - after this guy, and they find an AR-15 rifle pointed at them. They're not going to hold back nor should anyone expect guys with their lives at stake to hold back.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 08:17:07 PM by Asuras »

Offline XajowTopic starter

Re: Marine Killed, Shot 60 Times by... SWAT
« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2011, 11:31:25 PM »
The truthfulness of the attorney is questionable, imo. But yes, I do expect them to hold back rather than reflexively begin firing the moment they see a firearm. For a good explanation as to why, see this blog: http://confederateyankee.mu.nu/archives/316833.php. That police should protect themselves (and I fully agree they should) does not give them licence to kill just because they see a firearm. And SWAT are supposed to be better trained than the average police officer.

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: Marine Killed, Shot 60 Times by... SWAT
« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2011, 11:49:25 PM »
The truthfulness of the attorney is questionable, imo. But yes, I do expect them to hold back rather than reflexively begin firing the moment they see a firearm. For a good explanation as to why, see this blog: http://confederateyankee.mu.nu/archives/316833.php. That police should protect themselves (and I fully agree they should) does not give them licence to kill just because they see a firearm. And SWAT are supposed to be better trained than the average police officer.

They also have a higher standard of expected performance and behavior. Their rules of engagement are more stringent and they are better prepared and geared. Shooting a suspect is expected, but the sheer amount of lead in the man says something went wrong.