Kung Fu, MMA, Biases, and Criticisms

[Lux12]

I wouldn't consider this rant and I would like to be a conversation, but I'm not certain where I should be posting this on this forum.

Okay something has been bothering me lately. I don't know if this is the place for this, but it seems as if every time I go to watch a demonstration of traditional Chinese martial arts, then look in the comment section there's a horde of people talking about how even the least flashy, direct techniques are "impractical" or "useless", then I go and watch Krav Maga, Jeet Kun Do, BJJ Demonstrations, Keysi Fighting demonstrations, Muay Thai, and other such stuff and I see them pulling the same freaking techniques and they seem to gush over it. Granted some of them are willing to admit that Wing Chun when practiced as traditionally intended is pretty brutal and effective.  However when I see this, I feel as if I'm watching an entirely different video from them. I mean for example, traditional tiger style is pretty damn brutal. It includes eye gouging, palm strikes to the face (something used in krav), gripping and striking the throat, pulling the opponents hair, and generally attacking soft tissues. That's some streetfighting stuff. Bajiquan has by some been referred to as "Chinese Krav Maga" (I've seen people say similar things about Southern Praying Mantis) despite predating it by centuries and includes a lot of elbow strikes and shoulder checks which are known to be very useful by competitive grapplers in mma events. Wing Chun's "bursting" is also used in Krav Maga and Keysi fighting method. Some of Drunken Kung Fu's evasive techniques, namely bobbing and weaving are often used by boxers to great effect. This is before we even get to the fact that hitting people in the groin is one of the most widely utilized tactics in traditional Kung Fu and the general fact that it teaches one to avoid getting taken to the ground because, generally speaking, especially if your facing multiple opponents you  try to avoid that. There are techniques that western wrestlers use that show up in Huaquan.

In speaking of that, people who seem to ignore these things seem willing to ignore the flaws of the styles they praise. For example BJJ relies heavily on taking opponents to the ground which if you're facing multiple opponents isn't the best strategy. How do you counter multiple opponents in that case? Western boxing is when you get down to it, rather inflexible. Sure you can punch people, but there's a whole series of attacks and approaches to combat you've cut yourself off from. How do you defend against lets  say a knee to the groin when you aren't trained to expect that in a street fight or a competitive one? Krav, useful though it may be is not flawless and even that had to draw on techniques from traditional eastern martial arts.  Muay Thai has some useful stuff, but it's the less brutal descendant of Muay Boran which was used for WAR of all things and so there's a number of useful fighting tactics in a street confrontation that have been removed. For that matter, simplicity does not always equal good. Sometimes problems require complex solutions. Not to mention a lot of the flashier techniques in a traditional Chinese Martial Art? Most instructors worth their salt will tell you those aren't the first techniques you go for. Those are only supposed to be used in certain circumstances. Some of those graceful movements in solo forms? Many of those same instructors will tell you that in a fight, you would not actually be doing them, they're there to get the practitioner used to making certain kinds of movements.

Another complaint I see is when they slow the technique down or have a compliant assistant in a demonstration. I guarantee you in any fighting art, you would have that. The point isn't "This is how you do it and how it will always go down." but rather "I'm slowing it down so you can see all the individual movements and for those actually present, feel how it's supposed to feel when executed properly." I remember when I used to take Karate we did similar things. We started off with that sort of thing, then we would do it at full speed and sparred with noncompliant partners. Also what would you have them do? Just clock their assistant in the face when they're not wearing any kind of protection, actually break their arm on screen? I'm pretty sure just brutalizing people in such a way as that, breaking bones just to show how it's done is freaking illegal.

Has anyone else noticed this set of biases or similar things? Am I alone in these observations? What is the reason for a lot of this? Are their any other discrepancies? Additional comments?

[Inkidu]

Looks like someone trying to provide technique critique forgot the most important adage of martial arts.

There are no superior martial arts, only superior martial artists.

Tai chi is an effective martial art in practiced hands. If a boxer knows what he's doing and knows how to account for the things he traditionally doesn't have to deal with, he will put black belts on the mat. It's just the way it really is. Practice is far more important than martial style.

No kidding I once saw a boxer duck a high kick, hook a liver shot, work the body and then put a left uppercut right on the jaw. Walking onto a mat thinking you've got the win just because you know a martial art is the worst mistake you can ever make.

[Deamonbane]

Yep, pretty much what Inkidu said.

I'd add a small addendum that not each martial art is for everyone, and a lot of times, it's better to mix and match than to stick severely to one single discipline and disregard all others as useless. In most situations, even if you're not learning the discipline as a whole, one should still learn to counter certain aspects that others might bring to the table. In the original UFC events (yes, I know, there's the whole issue of them being used as marketing for the Gracie family) most of the fighters involved had little experience dealing with grapplers and wrestlers, allowing those grapplers and wrestlers to sweep most of the early events. However, once the rest of the fighters started learning how to wrestle and grapple, or at least counter the wrestlers and grapplers, it became a lot more evened out, and those specialists that refused to adapt with the times like Royce Gracie, got left behind.

There is, of course, the difference between learning to fight for competition and learning to fight for personal defense. There are rules in competing that would not apply to a self-defense situation, and let's be honest, the best strategy to use when dealing with multiple opponents is quick strikes, give yourself room, and run the fuck away at the first chance you get. There's a difference between knowing how to stand your ground against a similarly trained opponent and knowing what to do when your life is being threatened.

[Inkidu]

The only advice I ever received about fighting two or more people at once was get away, if you can't get away find some way to limit the access to you, and don't leave your feet. I know that last one is hard in most real fights, but you really don't want to give multiple attackers that kind of advantage.

To that end bathrooms are very good places to fight if you have no choice. The entrances and stalls can limit access and once inside there are lots of hard surfaces to put people into. Let the environment fight for you.

[Giantmutantcrab]

Yes.

Find a bottleneck and choke them in it.

Discussing which martial art is best is a waste of time. Hell, even the same exact boxers in the same exact martial art will give various results. Think back to all of the famous boxing sagas. Same boxers, several matches, different outcomes.

Ego is always a big thing. "So and so would defeat so and so". Is in the same vein of Superman VS Goku. It's just for people who want to argue.

Also the correct answer to who wins in Superman VS Goku?

Popeye.

[Deamonbane]

...

Also the correct answer to who wins in Superman VS Goku?

Popeye.

Only if he has enough spinach.

[Giantmutantcrab]

Only if he has enough spinach.

He's Popeye the sailor man.

Toot toot, motherfuckers.

:)